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LadyKulvax
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 29th 2019, 10:41 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:
Then again, I realise now that the only relevant portion is the description. What's sprinkled throughout the article is basically just game mechanic implementation.

The game mechanic implementation provides clear insight into the intended meaning behind "powers", unless if there's an in-game reason why they would refuse to implement the power source as primarily healing-based if that's what they wanted, or if two authors were writing the same article and disagreed or something.

Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

Darth Malak wrote:Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

This quote is almost an exact repeat of the one in the description. It is asking from what source Malak could take damage.

Darth Malak wrote:Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

This one, which I've politely been waiting for you to fully comprehend and drop, for your own benefit, is far worse for your argument.

It says:

'He gained three additional Force feats' the in-game term for Force powers/techniques which supports the interpretation that the 'powers' in the description is a plural statement, in reference to Force techniques:

Darth Malak wrote:Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

The '24 bonus skills points exclusively for dark side skills' is in reference to the mastery of those techniques.

You're literally proving me right by supporting these quotes.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 82d5323fa027351e-600x338

So who is next on the chopping block?
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 12:12 am
why are you obsessed with bumping your own posts lmfao

@LadyKulvax wrote:My point being, you can't shout about the article being about the combatively applicable powers of Malak to apply a restriction on a quote that comes from the character description section of the article.

Oh, please. The article is about his combat stats (brief descriptions of his appearance and motives notwithstanding), and both Malak and other characters emphasize the impact that the Star Forge has on how difficult it will be to stop him. What you have once again refused to do is to explain why there is any more doubt on whether these powers are combative than any other generic quotes about power, including ones you use all the time. Having greater Force power/powers than the opponent is the single biggest factor in determining who wins a fight. It isn't the exclusive factor, but you haven't been arguing that Exar Kun wins on his superior lightsaber skills.

Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

Darth Malak wrote:Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

This quote is almost an exact repeat of the one in the description. It is asking from what source Malak could take damage.

And that is directly combat relevant, contrary to your claims otherwise. If it is "far greater than even Exar Kun" in a combat context, it makes Malak likely to defeat Exar Kun in combat.

Darth Malak wrote:Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

This one, which I've politely been waiting for you to fully comprehend and drop, for your own benefit, is far worse for your argument.

It says:

'He gained three additional Force feats' the in-game term for Force powers/techniques which supports the interpretation that the 'powers' in the description is a plural statement, in reference to Force techniques:

Darth Malak wrote:Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

The '24 bonus skills points exclusively for dark side skills' is in reference to the mastery of those techniques.

You're literally proving me right by supporting these quotes.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 2829155256 Literally all of those Force feats are combat relevant; indeed, all of them are primarily combat relevant! If his combat abilities are "far greater than Exar Kun" in both the quantity and quality (the skill points refer to the efficacy of Force feats and Force skills), he's in all practical sense a superior combatant to Exar Kun.

The only thing that you might be trying to say here is that the Star Forge doesn't make Malak more powerful than Exar Kun in terms of raw potency, but rather gives him specific advantages in Force skills. Firstly, even if this were true, it's still far greater than Exar Kun, with the comparison being against Exar Kun himself, not his specific skills. Secondly, the d20 system doesn't really have a number to indicate your "raw potency" anyway; someone having greater potency would be reflected in areas like their Force skills. I suppose you could look at things like Force points, but the section actually talks about how Malak basically gets a free Force point, so case in point.

So you still haven't backed up your claim that Malak's powers may be mainly non-combative. Both sections refer to combative powers, ergo his combative powers are "far greater than even Exar Kun". What's next?

Because Kun is the biggest threat due to his power in the Force.

...but you were just going on about how Malak's powers might not be relevant because they might not be combative, and now you're bringing up Kun's allegedly superior power in the Force as a conclusive point? What?

Furthermore, your quote is less likely to be combat relevant than Malak's. While there's dilution from powers to combat ability, in Exar Kun's case there's an extra round of dilution from "threat' to "Force power". In the context of a galactic conflict, you definitely cannot say that Exar Kun's power in the Force is the only variable at play here. His military strength, tactical and strategic acumen, connections, logistical support, etc. are also highly relevant; it's probably accurate to say that Thrawn was a greater threat than a random Dark Jedi, for example. So we have in comparison:

SF Malak's powers -> combat ability
Exar Kun's "threat" -> Exar Kun's powers -> combat ability

You're making a bigger leap.

"Threat" could most accurately be described as a combination of the probability that something bad will happen and the magnitude of that bad. The Star Forge is a superweapon that isn't going to start attacking on its own; someone has to find it and use it first. Therefore, it's entirely possible for it to be far more powerful than Exar Kun, but still a lesser threat because it's not as likely to actively start making plans on its own. The literal combative power of the Star Forge is not at all the primary factor here.

Nope, the context of the quote and the paragraph is about whether he's overcome Exar Kun's possession and if he can accomplish facing a new force without slipping back.

So you think Luke was testing Kyp on whether he was literally  powerful enough to overpower Exar Kun's spirit? That's obviously not the point at all lmfao, the trial is about his character, not his power level.

Nah, I'm not saying they're explicit, I'm saying that he consistently percieves them as the go-to big bads he's faced and they literally appear to him as a warning when he contemplates using his power to shed a Star Destroyer of its hull.

I'm saying they are his two biggest enemies, but only as a secondary effect. Oh, and Luke literally joins his spiritual power with Vodo's spirit and the trainees so as to envelop Kun. So he definitely did defeat Kun directly.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that Luke literally percieves them in a moment when he considers abusing his own powers as a warning of basically what he'd become if he did.

I'm not ignoring it, I know full well it isn't the same thing. I'm saying that they are literally being noted as a pair of dark side nexuses, and two of the greatest he's ever faced. Given that Luke's realisation that Sheev was a living dark side nexus made him literally give up hope of ever beating him in DE, you can probably see why it's a big deal for me.

I'm not interpreting it as a direct comparison, I'm saying that this quote aids in the depiction of Kun and Sheev as the NR era's biggest bads.

??? Your clam was that Exar Kun is on Palpatine's tier, not that he's more potent than anyone in the era other than Palpatine. Those are two very different statements; if Palpatine is a 100 and the next threat other than Exar Kun is a 25, Exar Kun could be a 30 and the quote would still apply without it putting Exar Kun anywhere near Sidious's tier.

And he's obviously not on Sidious's tier. He isn't even on RotS Sidious's tier:

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

Meet Darth Sidious – the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

--Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

--The Complete Visual Dictionary

Before you try to come up with more convoluted rationalizations of these quotes, why don't you try applying those excuses to your own Exar Kun quotes?

The actual scaling and feats Kun's spirit has at this time, paints a very consistent picture suggesting he is alongside the accolades provided.

...you completely misread what you were quoting. Those accolades provided don't say he's on Palpatine's tier, they just at most say that he's above any villain in that era aside from Palpatine (and even that's dubious).

As for scaling and feats, you haven't provided any.

He has authority over that material, given he is the one who wrote it all.

No, he doesn't. The material he wrote went through an editorial approval process; his opinion did not.

His opinion has weight, not absolute or infallible, but valuable nonetheless.

Is it more valuable than the numerous published quotes saying the opposite?

Nah, establishing Kun as a Sheev tier threat and establishing Sheev as the all-time G.O.A.T are entirely different matters with very different Pandora's boxes to open.

Sidious can be established as that anywhere between TPM and RotS, and DE Sidious is explicitly far more powerful. Your interpretation of your quotes is that Exar Kun is on the tier of DE Sidious, which is clearly contradicted by the actual, explicit statements to the contrary.

Most powerful quotes by themselves require intense investigation. But worst of all, given that Leland Chee doesn't consider them as subjective facts(which was more what I was referring to when I made that jab) that must be abided by, then I see no reason that they apply as some kind of definitive, insurmountable wall of Sheev.

But you think Nihilus is definitely below the ancients because Kreia said so, and Exar Kun is above Malak because he's the greatest "threat" the galaxy had "faced" in a while and this apparently includes an unused superweapon. What are double standards?

You (re)opened up speculation about the comparisons to Nadd and Kun. I am only entertaining the possibilities, that they just so happened to both attempt immortality is just incredibly coincidental.

It's not "incredibly coincidental". Most of the Ancient Sith (and modern Sith) obsessively pursued immortality. Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd weren't even especially successful at it.

The idea that any cybernetics could afford 'far greater' Force power when they've been constantly shown to only mitigate the damage suffered by debilitating injuries is abdolutely never going to help your case here.

As I said, it's entirely plausible for cybernetics to enhance Force abilities - they can be imbued with Force energies, they can be acted on by Sith sorcery (e.g. Kaan's amulet in Vader's suit), etc. Furthermore, the very article proceeds to give Malak non-healing related powers as a direct result of the same source that had been speculated to be the cybernetics.


??? Right here:

Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

?? That doesn't mean it's the primary benefit, not when other sources refer to other benefits, like the one that emphasizes he'll become "too powerful" to stop.

Do you seriously think the reason Malak was confident he was "invincible" and could defeat his former master was that he was healing himself faster? Even if we only looked at the "damage reduction" portion of the article, it refers to reducing damage, which implies some sort of insane durability.

Furthermore, other sources reference the Star Forge feeding into Malak's power, which 1) has by precedent increased actual power, and 2) would give Malak extremely vast Force reserves from which to use Force powers. Both are highly combat relevant.  

Not the point.

Brilliant rebuttal!

The Star Forge went to 300% capacity because of all of the Sith, not just Malak. It feeds off of dark side energy to generate greater and greater negative energy for itself.

So? The point is that Malak was harnessing it, and you think it was at 300% capacity, so your Exar Kun > Star Forge scaling doesn't even work.

1.Not all amulets are the same, we're literally told the function of Kun's. A general statement on the things collectively doesn't override that. Though there's an argument to be made that the amulets are channelling their inner potential, but that's mostly conjecture.

2.No it doesn't, luckily that wasn't my point. Per the popular logic surrounding Malak. Malak's source of power is much more powerful than the Byss nexus which Sheev was 'exponentially' amplified by. It's the same as the Malak-Jedi Exiles scaling but with Sheev. I think its fvcking retarded but then I'm not amongst those who sees Malak this way so literally.

You still didn't answer the question; how does this imply Malak > Sidious? Are you trying to imply that the Star Forge > Sidious because Sidious is < or close to Byss?

The only way this argument makes any sense is if you actually take "exponentially" literally and assert that the Byss nexus adds its power to Sidious's, so by implication the Byss nexus is much more powerful than Sidious. Let's do that; then we have Byss Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious; and since DE Sidious > Byss nexus and you think Byss nexus >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIdious, DE Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious > Exar Kun. Congratulations?

I'm really hoping that you take an honest attempt to actually address the things that you are responding to this time around. Repeating myself several times to get you to actually engage with critical points is getting a little pointless, so whether I actually bother with another reply will depend on whether it looks like you're putting any effort into this at all.
LadyKulvax
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 2:19 am
@The Ellimist wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:My point being, you can't shout about the article being about the combatively applicable powers of Malak to apply a restriction on a quote that comes from the character description section of the article.

Oh, please. The article is about his combat stats (brief descriptions of his appearance and motives notwithstanding), and both Malak and other characters emphasize the impact that the Star Forge has on how difficult it will be to stop him. What you have once again refused to do is to explain why there is any more doubt on whether these powers are combative than any other generic quotes about power, including ones you use all the time. Having greater Force power/powers than the opponent is the single biggest factor in determining who wins a fight. It isn't the exclusive factor, but you haven't been arguing that Exar Kun wins on his superior lightsaber skills.

You're saying that at this point the Star Forge giving Malak more potent Force techniques and providing more skill to weild them with, means that he is literally more powerful. But given that we know what the primary combative use of those powers are(an internal boon to keep him fighting, not an external attack) then I really don't get why you're pushing this dead end argument.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

Darth Malak wrote:Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.

This quote is almost an exact repeat of the one in the description. It is asking from what source Malak could take damage.

And that is directly combat relevant, contrary to your claims otherwise. If it is "far greater than even Exar Kun" in a combat context, it makes Malak likely to defeat Exar Kun in combat.

You're making the two mean the same thing when there's no reason to think so. Malak will take longer to kill than he normally does. Who gives a shit?

@The Ellimist wrote:
Darth Malak wrote:Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.

This one, which I've politely been waiting for you to fully comprehend and drop, for your own benefit, is far worse for your argument.

It says:

'He gained three additional Force feats' the in-game term for Force powers/techniques which supports the interpretation that the 'powers' in the description is a plural statement, in reference to Force techniques:

Darth Malak wrote:Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.

The '24 bonus skills points exclusively for dark side skills' is in reference to the mastery of those techniques.

You're literally proving me right by supporting these quotes.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 2829155256 Literally all of those Force feats are combat relevant; indeed, all of them are primarily combat relevant! If his combat abilities are "far greater than Exar Kun" in both the quantity and quality (the skill points refer to the efficacy of Force feats and Force skills), he's in all practical sense a superior combatant to Exar Kun.

The only thing that you might be trying to say here is that the Star Forge doesn't make Malak more powerful than Exar Kun in terms of raw potency, but rather gives him specific advantages in Force skills. Firstly, even if this were true, it's still far greater than Exar Kun, with the comparison being against Exar Kun himself, not his specific skills. Secondly, the d20 system doesn't really have a number to indicate your "raw potency" anyway; someone having greater potency would be reflected in areas like their Force skills. I suppose you could look at things like Force points, but the section actually talks about how Malak basically gets a free Force point, so case in point.

Malak's actual power is his 'level' in gameplay terms. Which only proves my point even further:

Darth Malak wrote:Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level.

The feats/techniques/powers he is possessing through the Star Forge is 'out of proportion' with his power/level.

Force points are the in-game version of energy reserves, so he basically gets to pop off one attack on the basis of an amp without it draining his own personal energy.

@The Ellimist wrote:So you still haven't backed up your claim that Malak's powers may be mainly non-combative. Both sections refer to combative powers, ergo his combative powers are "far greater than even Exar Kun". What's next?

My entire point is that the Star Wars Databank states his ability to replenish his life force was the primary reason why he was unstoppable. Not some amp to his power, or the other powers he had 'additionally'. It doesn't even bother to mention those. Hence the life force replenishment is canonically the main/primary/important factor in him being almost 'unstoppable'.

So no, I'm not saying that it isn't to do with combat. I am saying that the primary in-combat power/technique that made him almost unstoppable and 'far greater' than what Kun can do, isn't something he can attack Kun with and win on the basis of potency.

But you seem to have massively shifted your goal posts at this point. First you said that it was 'clearly' referring to Malak's personal power:

You wrote:That doesn't really leave the quote wide open. The quote asks whether it's Malak's cybernetics that give him such power - why would cybernetics relate to the strength of his industrial base or size of his fleet? "Was it cybernetics that gave Malak this huge ass fleet?" It's clearly referencing personal power.

Now you're saying that because the Force techniques the Star Forge gave him are 'far greater' than Exar Kun's, then he must win, because they're combat relevant.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Because Kun is the biggest threat due to his power in the Force.

...but you were just going on about how Malak's powers might not be relevant because they might not be combative, and now you're bringing up Kun's allegedly superior power in the Force as a conclusive point? What?

Furthermore, your quote is less likely to be combat relevant than Malak's. While there's dilution from powers to combat ability, in Exar Kun's case there's an extra round of dilution from "threat' to "Force power". In the context of a galactic conflict, you definitely cannot say that Exar Kun's power in the Force is the only variable at play here. His military strength, tactical and strategic acumen, connections, logistical support, etc. are also highly relevant; it's probably accurate to say that Thrawn was a greater threat than a random Dark Jedi, for example. So we have in comparison:

SF Malak's powers -> combat ability
Exar Kun's "threat" -> Exar Kun's powers -> combat ability

You're making a bigger leap.

"Threat" could most accurately be described as a combination of the probability that something bad will happen and the magnitude of that bad. The Star Forge is a superweapon that isn't going to start attacking on its own; someone has to find it and use it first. Therefore, it's entirely possible for it to be far more powerful than Exar Kun, but still a lesser threat because it's not as likely to actively start making plans on its own. The literal combative power of the Star Forge is not at all the primary factor here.

1.You're assuming I was making a leap where I didn't. Refer to the previous counter I made.

2.Considering Malak isn't more powerful than the Star Forge either, and more importantly, that the Star Forge was quite literally a living dark side nexus that manipulated an entire galaxy-wide civilisation telepathically so it could feed off of their energy as they slaughtered each other -and the fact it's called a galactic threat twice- kinda contradicts your idea.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Nope, the context of the quote and the paragraph is about whether he's overcome Exar Kun's possession and if he can accomplish facing a new force without slipping back.

So you think Luke was testing Kyp on whether he was literally powerful enough to overpower Exar Kun's spirit? That's obviously not the point at all lmfao, the trial is about his character, not his power level.

No, I'm saying that he's literally saying that if Kyp can overcome this last battle then he's successfully came out of his 'testing' as a Jedi, which just so happens to be against forces as dire and powerful as the ones Luke went through.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Nah, I'm not saying they're explicit, I'm saying that he consistently percieves them as the go-to big bads he's faced and they literally appear to him as a warning when he contemplates using his power to shed a Star Destroyer of its hull.

I'm saying they are his two biggest enemies, but only as a secondary effect. Oh, and Luke literally joins his spiritual power with Vodo's spirit and the trainees so as to envelop Kun. So he definitely did defeat Kun directly.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that Luke literally percieves them in a moment when he considers abusing his own powers as a warning of basically what he'd become if he did.

I'm not ignoring it, I know full well it isn't the same thing. I'm saying that they are literally being noted as a pair of dark side nexuses, and two of the greatest he's ever faced. Given that Luke's realisation that Sheev was a living dark side nexus made him literally give up hope of ever beating him in DE, you can probably see why it's a big deal for me.

I'm not interpreting it as a direct comparison, I'm saying that this quote aids in the depiction of Kun and Sheev as the NR era's biggest bads.

??? Your clam was that Exar Kun is on Palpatine's tier, not that he's more potent than anyone in the era other than Palpatine. Those are two very different statements; if Palpatine is a 100 and the next threat other than Exar Kun is a 25, Exar Kun could be a 30 and the quote would still apply without it putting Exar Kun anywhere near Sidious's tier.

That both Palpatine and Kun are dark side nexuses/focal points and two of the greatest he's ever faced -there are no other confirmed living nexuses he's faced besides the two- clearly shows Kun is close because Palpatine being a dark side nexus by DE is literally what makes Luke say 'GG' and join the dark side. Note ROTJ Sheev isn't a nexus, but he is when he comes back much more powerful in DE. You can slot Kun in right there on the basis of this manifestation of his power. So unless you have DE Sheev in another tier from his ROTJ incarnation. Then Kun is on his tier.

@The Ellimist wrote:And he's obviously not on Sidious's tier. He isn't even on RotS Sidious's tier:

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

A quote from an article that's literally only about Yoda in the movies and about behind the scenes story decisions in ROTS regarding Yoda. Cool story.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Meet Darth Sidious – the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

--Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice

A Canon level 4 young readers book. Welp, I concede.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

--The Complete Visual Dictionary

A Canon Visual Dictionary. *conceding intensifies*

By the way, that entire book became Disney Canon when they re-released it with an added-on The Force Awakens section.

@The Ellimist wrote:Before you try to come up with more convoluted rationalizations of these quotes, why don't you try applying those excuses to your own Exar Kun quotes?

Because none of them have any reason to be wrong and aren't Canon. That's why? If there's any genuine reason why they're blatantly incorrect, feel free to prove it.

@The Ellimist wrote:
The actual scaling and feats Kun's spirit has at this time, paints a very consistent picture suggesting he is alongside the accolades provided.

...you completely misread what you were quoting. Those accolades provided don't say he's on Palpatine's tier, they just at most say that he's above any villain in that era aside from Palpatine (and even that's dubious).

You mean besides the one that literally says he is?

@The Ellimist wrote:As for scaling and feats, you haven't provided any.

Given he scales far beyond Ood Bnar who destroyed a canonically combative rival of Luke; that he's capable of binding Luke's spirit whilst successfully possessing and dominating Kyp Durron as a spirit; scales above his spirit who is a stated peer of Kueller who was also stated to be more powerful than BFC!Luke and the most powerful living being since Palpatine.

That's not all, but you get the point.

@The Ellimist wrote:
He has authority over that material, given he is the one who wrote it all.

No, he doesn't. The material he wrote went through an editorial approval process; his opinion did not.

No his material, decisions and opinions went directly through George Lucas who personally approved his ideas or took direct control over many of the decisions about Exar Kun. Such as whether to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith or another random Dark Jedi, whether he could have a double-bladed lightsaber, to make him a new kind of Force-user, etc.

@The Ellimist wrote:
His opinion has weight, not absolute or infallible, but valuable nonetheless.

Is it more valuable than the numerous published quotes saying the opposite?

More valuable? No. Something we can derive interpretation from when analysing the other quotes in question? Yes.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Nah, establishing Kun as a Sheev tier threat and establishing Sheev as the all-time G.O.A.T are entirely different matters with very different Pandora's boxes to open.

Sidious can be established as that anywhere between TPM and RotS, and DE Sidious is explicitly far more powerful. Your interpretation of your quotes is that Exar Kun is on the tier of DE Sidious, which is clearly contradicted by the actual, explicit statements to the contrary.

If they can be, I've yet to see you prove so.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Most powerful quotes by themselves require intense investigation. But worst of all, given that Leland Chee doesn't consider them as subjective facts(which was more what I was referring to when I made that jab) that must be abided by, then I see no reason that they apply as some kind of definitive, insurmountable wall of Sheev.

But you think Nihilus is definitely below the ancients because Kreia said so, and Exar Kun is above Malak because he's the greatest "threat" the galaxy had "faced" in a while and this apparently includes an unused superweapon. What are double standards?

1.Kreia said so because she had read all of the dozens of ancient Sith holocrons and all the information in the Trayus Academy for a clear picture. Which is why Chris Avellone says that she's making accurate estimations, because of said holocrons. She literally taught him the ancient Sith ability and knows what its upper limits are through those who used it. It's also consistent with the fact that the Sith Triumvirate, namely Darth Nihilus himself, was resurrecting Freedon Nadd on Dxun to win the war. Which is also consistent with the fact that Visas Marr is in awe of the power of Freedon Nadd's tomb, Visas Marr being the person who knows Nihilus' prime power better than anybody else on the matter.

2.Nah, I'm saying that Exar Kun is by far the single greatest threat of his time and for all time before that, and that it's because of his power that he is such. The Star Forge -a living, semi-sentient dark side nexus- is also a galactic scale threat that did some One Ring of Power shit and wiped out an empire through dominating their minds and then fed on the death it caused. It's galactic scale threat accolades don't stop applying because you say so.

3.Neither of those have been personally dismissed by Leland Chee.

@The Ellimist wrote:
You (re)opened up speculation about the comparisons to Nadd and Kun. I am only entertaining the possibilities, that they just so happened to both attempt immortality is just incredibly coincidental.

It's not "incredibly coincidental". Most of the Ancient Sith (and modern Sith) obsessively pursued immortality. Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd weren't even especially successful at it.

Both of them became spirits that survived well after their time. They also came closest to a return on their own accord. But I digress, you wanted to explore reasons for their inclusions.

@The Ellimist wrote:
The idea that any cybernetics could afford 'far greater' Force power when they've been constantly shown to only mitigate the damage suffered by debilitating injuries is abdolutely never going to help your case here.

As I said, it's entirely plausible for cybernetics to enhance Force abilities - they can be imbued with Force energies, they can be acted on by Sith sorcery (e.g. Kaan's amulet in Vader's suit), etc. Furthermore, the very article proceeds to give Malak non-healing related powers as a direct result of the same source that had been speculated to be the cybernetics.

Except the cybernetics weren't the question at hand, the life support was. That was the plausible explanation. The function of life support is literally in the name. You're applying a Force context where none is implied. That the Star Forge just so happens to provide the same thing, life support, isn't a random occurrence.

[quote="The Ellimist"]
??? Right here:

Databank wrote:The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

?? That doesn't mean it's the primary benefit, not when other sources refer to other benefits, like the one that emphasizes he'll become "too powerful" to stop.

Do you seriously think the reason Malak was confident he was "invincible" and could defeat his former master was that he was healing himself faster? Even if we only looked at the "damage reduction" portion of the article, it refers to reducing damage, which implies some sort of insane durability.

Furthermore, other sources reference the Star Forge feeding into Malak's power, which 1) has by precedent increased actual power, and 2) would give Malak extremely vast Force reserves from which to use Force powers. Both are highly combat relevant.

It says him adapting the Star Forge to allow him to replenish his life support by draining it from Jedi captives is what made Malak almost unstoppable. Not Malak was powered by the Star Forge, which made him almost unstoppable. Your issue is with the Databank, not me.

You seem to be assuming that I don't recognise the other quotes, but I'm not dismissing them at all. I'm taking the most canonical source on the matter and applying it with them. That source doesn't even bother to make reference to the rest of said benefits, which is why I take it to mean there's a disproportianate degree of import between the two.

@The Ellimist wrote:
The Star Forge went to 300% capacity because of all of the Sith, not just Malak. It feeds off of dark side energy to generate greater and greater negative energy for itself.

So? The point is that Malak was harnessing it, and you think it was at 300% capacity, so your Exar Kun > Star Forge scaling doesn't even work.

As if threat isn't including potential somehow, when that's exactly what threat levels are based on.

@The Ellimist wrote:
1.Not all amulets are the same, we're literally told the function of Kun's. A general statement on the things collectively doesn't override that. Though there's an argument to be made that the amulets are channelling their inner potential, but that's mostly conjecture.

2.No it doesn't, luckily that wasn't my point. Per the popular logic surrounding Malak. Malak's source of power is much more powerful than the Byss nexus which Sheev was 'exponentially' amplified by. It's the same as the Malak-Jedi Exiles scaling but with Sheev. I think its fvcking retarded but then I'm not amongst those who sees Malak this way so literally.

You still didn't answer the question; how does this imply Malak > Sidious? Are you trying to imply that the Star Forge > Sidious because Sidious is < or close to Byss?

The only way this argument makes any sense is if you actually take "exponentially" literally and assert that the Byss nexus adds its power to Sidious's, so by implication the Byss nexus is much more powerful than Sidious. Let's do that; then we have Byss Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious; and since DE Sidious > Byss nexus and you think Byss nexus >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIdious, DE Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious > Exar Kun. Congratulations?

I'm really hoping that you take an honest attempt to actually address the things that you are responding to this time around. Repeating myself several times to get you to actually engage with critical points is getting a little pointless, so whether I actually bother with another reply will depend on whether it looks like you're putting any effort into this at all.

No, it's easy.

Per the logic of many here, Malak has the Star Forge to amp him, permanently and consistently. The Star Forge is far more powerful than Byss pre-construction, Sheev by his own admittance is amplified by an 'exponential flood' when he uses the Force there. If Malak is harnessing the Star Forge to become more and more powerful, to the point it hits 300% of what the Sith initially thought its capacity would be, and Sheev's Force power is 'exponentially' increased by a far less powerful source. Then this naturally indicates that Malak amped by the SF would be more powerful than pre-ROTJ Sheev amped by pre-construction Byss.

Feel free to keep arguing the SF is a perma amp, that'll take you places real fast.
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 4:18 am
To be frank, your habit of running in circles makes discussing this with you really unproductive.

Here's an example - the central point you've tried to consistently run away from is: if Malak's powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", wouldn't that imply his superiority regardless of whether these powers are general or specific?


  • After avoiding the question for several posts, you finally tried to argue that these abilities aren't combative.
  • When I pointed out that the abilities listed are clearly combative, you then pretended that you weren't arguing that they weren't combative in the first place, but rather that they don't literally make him more powerful.


...but where did addressing the fact that they were "far greater than Exar Kun" go? Oh, you just let that slip away, didn't you? The closest you came to addressing it was then pretending that healing powers couldn't actually change the outcome of a fight (seriously??).


@LadyKulvax wrote:You're saying that at this point the Star Forge giving Malak more potent Force techniques and providing more skill to weild them with, means that he is literally more powerful.

...no, I'm saying that if the article says his powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", it is unlikely that Exar Kun could overcome those powers regardless of what they are; otherwise, they wouldn't be "far greater" than him. Even the "damage reduction 5" skill you emphasized is more than just passive healing - it's an active durability boost which could easily tip the scales against someone in a fight.

But given that we know what the primary combative use of those powers are(an internal boon to keep him fighting, not an external attack) then I really don't get why you're pushing this dead end argument.

...but you just conceded that the extra Force skills are across the board?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1220391476

You're making the two mean the same thing when there's no reason to think so. Malak will take longer to kill than he normally does. Who gives a shit?

If nobody gives a shit and Exar Kun can easily overcome it, why was it described as far greater than him?

And you haven't thought this through if you don't see how healing and durability amps could influence the outcome of a fight. If Exar Kun's attacks do less damage to Malak and Malak can heal himself from a basically infinite source while wearing Kun down, it could absolutely change the outcome of the battle. Were Kun able to overcome this and beat Malak anyway, the powers would not be described as "far greater than even Exar Kun".

Now you're saying that because the Force techniques the Star Forge gave him are 'far greater' than Exar Kun's, then he must win, because they're combat relevant.

No, I'm saying that either one is sufficient to give Malak the advantage. You keep pretending that it's all about life energy because a single quote says that, and then cite sources that actually say the opposite (when Malak says it "feeds his power", that implies that he's more powerful and/or gets a deeper reserve of Force power, which is a lot more than just healing).

Likewise, you keep arguing that healing and durability boosts don't actually change the outcome of fights but rather delay the inevitable, which begs the question of why it was described as making him "nearly unstoppable".

And you absolutely did argue that it was primarily non-combative. Specifically, you tried to argue that it was non-combative to get around the fact that it was described as "far greater than even Exar Kun", but have now dropped that to run around in circles again.

1.You're assuming I was making a leap where I didn't. Refer to the previous counter I made.

2.Considering Malak isn't more powerful than the Star Forge either, and more importantly, that the Star Forge was quite literally a living dark side nexus that manipulated an entire galaxy-wide civilisation telepathically so it could feed off of their energy as they slaughtered each other -and the fact it's called a galactic threat twice- kinda contradicts your idea.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1935072468 This response doesn't address what it was responding to at all. It's like you're pasting random points together with random parts of my post.

Exar Kun's threat level relative to the Star Forge is not nearly-exclusively a product of Force power, and certainly not of combative ability. It's also a product of:

- agency
- political positioning
- logistics
- military might

And a host of other variables. The most obvious difference is that while Exar Kun was a being actively threatening the galaxy, the Star Forge was a superweapon that might threaten the galaxy in the future if someone were to find it. Those aren't comparable threat levels at all. The notion that this conveys some Force power contest between Exar Kun and the Star Forge is blatantly dishonest.

o, I'm saying that he's literally saying that if Kyp can overcome this last battle then he's successfully came out of his 'testing' as a Jedi, which just so happens to be against forces as dire and powerful as the ones Luke went through.

So you think "forces as dire and powerful" refers to the personal Force powers of Exar Kun, even though that is contradictory to numerous OOU sources, an offhanded IU musing, and irrelevant to what Luke was actually thinking about, but "powers far greater than Exar Kun" might be about non-combative powers? Give me a fucking break.

That both Palpatine and Kun are dark side nexuses/focal points and two of the greatest he's ever faced -there are no other confirmed living nexuses he's faced besides the two- clearly shows Kun is close because Palpatine being a dark side nexus by DE is literally what makes Luke say 'GG' and join the dark side. Note ROTJ Sheev isn't a nexus, but he is when he comes back much more powerful in DE. You can slot Kun in right there on the basis of this manifestation of his power. So unless you have DE Sheev in another tier from his ROTJ incarnation. Then Kun is on his tier.

You tried to switch "focal point" with "nexus". A "focal point" could refer to any concentration of the dark side, which would be any dark sider.

And we know that PT Sidious (who is described as a concentration of dark side energy that fills the entire galaxy in the RotS novelization) is the most powerful sith lord in history, a far more explicit comparison than this weird extrapolation.

A quote from an article that's literally only about Yoda in the movies

Not how it works - it's a part of Legends. It doesn't have to mention other parts of Legends to be part of the story.

and about behind the scenes story decisions in ROTS regarding Yoda. Cool story.

So you take facebook messages authors respond to you with as authoritative, but not a published article?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1220391476

A Canon level 4 young readers book. Welp, I concede.

It's not canon; it was published in January 2012, before Disney even bought Star Wars, and long before it split the continuity. And young readers books are still a part of Legends. By itself, you could try to argue that it holds less weight than a more "adult" source, but it just reinforces the mountains of quotes we already have on the matter.

A Canon Visual Dictionary. *conceding intensifies*

What the fuck are you talking about? It was published in 2006.

By the way, that entire book became Disney Canon when they re-released it with an added-on The Force Awakens section.

So what? That's not mutually exclusive from it being a part of Legends, any more than TCW, etc. existing in both continuities is. Does the fact that the information is valid in Canon magically nullify its existence in Legends? Why?

Is there some magical force that prevents a fact from appearing in both?

Oh, and since you seem to buy that Exar Kun's "most powerful Sith of all" quotes refers to dead Sith like Ragnos too:

When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style. Grand Master Yoda took on Darth Sidious in the Senate building on Coruscant and proved that strength and power have nothing to do with size.

--Jedi Battles


With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

--Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1

You mean besides the one that literally says he is?

...what kind of a response is this? So you're just abandoning the quote and moving to another one? Because what you were quoting doesn't actually do anything to compare Palpatine and Exar Kun, so concession accepted, I guess.

Given he scales far beyond Ood Bnar

And Palpatine doesn't?

who destroyed a canonically combative rival of Luke;

Er, what?

that he's capable of binding Luke's spirit whilst successfully possessing and dominating Kyp Durron as a spirit;

Lol, it's funny how you phrase it as if Exar Kun's control of Kyp Durron was inhibiting him rather than key to his accomplishment.

scales above his spirit who is a stated peer of Kueller who was also stated to be more powerful than BFC!Luke

Stated by IU sources, stated otherwise by OOU sources.

and the most powerful living being since Palpatine.

Wow, I just explained how this doesn't say anything about him being as powerful as Palpatine?

No his material, decisions and opinions went directly through George Lucas who personally approved his ideas or took direct control over many of the decisions about Exar Kun. Such as whether to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith or another random Dark Jedi, whether he could have a double-bladed lightsaber, to make him a new kind of Force-user, etc.

His published material went through such an approval process. That doesn't mean Lucas approved of everything he mused to himself but didn't write down.

More valuable? No. Something we can derive interpretation from when analysing the other quotes in question? Yes.

Unless if you can debunk the Palpatine supremacy quotes, this gets you nowhere.

1.Kreia said so because she had read all of the dozens of ancient Sith holocrons and all the information in the Trayus Academy for a clear picture. Which is why Chris Avellone says that she's making accurate estimations, because of said holocrons. She literally taught him the ancient Sith ability and knows what its upper limits are through those who used it. It's also consistent with the fact that the Sith Triumvirate, namely Darth Nihilus himself, was resurrecting Freedon Nadd on Dxun to win the war. Which is also consistent with the fact that Visas Marr is in awe of the power of Freedon Nadd's tomb, Visas Marr being the person who knows Nihilus' prime power better than anybody else on the matter.

This makes her more reliable than several OOU sources?

3.Neither of those have been personally dismissed by Leland Chee.

More dishonest evasiveness from you. A generic dismissal of the idea of power rankings doesn't only apply to some quotes because you happened to strategically choose to ask him about some quotes and not others.

Both of them became spirits that survived well after their time.

Exar Kun was forced to, and only survived via an external nexus.

They also came closest to a return on their own accord.

Based on conditional events thousands of years later?

But I digress, you wanted to explore reasons for their inclusions.

And there are no coherent ones other than because they were notable and powerful.

Except the cybernetics weren't the question at hand, the life support was. That was the plausible explanation. The function of life support is literally in the name. You're applying a Force context where none is implied. That the Star Forge just so happens to provide the same thing, life support, isn't a random occurrence.

What the fuck? The cybernetics are the life support. The sentence literally refers to it as "cybernetic enhancement". Then you literally conceded that the article grants Force powers across the board rather than in that narrow domain, and are apparently backtracking. Like, what the fuck?

You seem to think that because it's called "life support", it can't possibly do anything else, even though the whole point is that it did more.

It says him adapting the Star Forge to allow him to replenish his life support by draining it from Jedi captives is what made Malak almost unstoppable. Not Malak was powered by the Star Forge, which made him almost unstoppable. Your issue is with the Databank, not me.

Ridiculous semantics; the Star Forge is what makes the draining more potent than just using Force drain on them.

You seem to be assuming that I don't recognise the other quotes, but I'm not dismissing them at all. I'm taking the most canonical source on the matter and applying it with them. That source doesn't even bother to make reference to the rest of said benefits, which is why I take it to mean there's a disproportianate degree of import between the two.

Yet "powers" in the article isn't referring disproportionately to healing, as you conceded yourself, which means that the scaling actually goes:

Malak's life force healing > Malak's "powers" >> Exar Kun

As if threat isn't including potential somehow, when that's exactly what threat levels are based on.

Threat levels aren't just about full capacity; they're also based on probability. Exar Kun was definitely wrecking havoc, while the Star Forge might get discovered by someone capable of using it.

No, it's easy.

Per the logic of many here, Malak has the Star Forge to amp him, permanently and  consistently. The Star Forge is far more powerful than Byss pre-construction, Sheev by his own admittance is amplified by an 'exponential flood' when he uses the Force there. If Malak is harnessing the Star Forge to become more and more powerful, to the point it hits 300% of what the Sith initially thought its capacity would be, and Sheev's Force power is 'exponentially' increased by a far less powerful source. Then this naturally indicates that Malak amped by the SF would be more powerful than pre-ROTJ Sheev amped by pre-construction Byss.

Feel free to keep arguing the SF is a perma amp, that'll take you places real fast.

...once again, it's like you didn't even bother to read what you were responding to. Let me post it again:

You still didn't answer the question; how does this imply Malak > Sidious? Are you trying to imply that the Star Forge > Sidious because Sidious is < or close to Byss?

The only way this argument makes any sense is if you actually take "exponentially" literally and assert that the Byss nexus adds its power to Sidious's, so by implication the Byss nexus is much more powerful than Sidious. Let's do that; then we have Byss Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious; and since DE Sidious > Byss nexus and you think Byss nexus >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIdious, DE Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious > Exar Kun. Congratulations?

If your next reply includes more evasive circle-running dishonesty, I think I'll have to end this conversation.
LadyKulvax
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 10:32 am
@The Ellimist wrote:To be frank, your habit of running in circles makes discussing this with you really unproductive.

Here's an example - the central point you've tried to consistently run away from is: if Malak's powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", wouldn't that imply his superiority regardless of whether these powers are general or specific?


  • After avoiding the question for several posts, you finally tried to argue that these abilities aren't combative.
  • When I pointed out that the abilities listed are clearly combative, you then pretended that you weren't arguing that they weren't combative in the first place, but rather that they don't literally make him more powerful.


...but where did addressing the fact that they were "far greater than Exar Kun" go? Oh, you just let that slip away, didn't you? The closest you came to addressing it was then pretending that healing powers couldn't actually change the outcome of a fight (seriously??).

What utter bullshit. From the start I am and have beem saying that the main reference to powers is not strictly a reference to combative feats. Because he can do it in or out of combat. You're trying to force the fact that the article is about using the character in a combat scenario to mean that literally everything within it must be of a purely combative context. I don't agree entirely.

This does not mean that I think 'powers' aren't combat applicable.

I haven't gone in circles at all.

@The Ellimist wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:You're saying that at this point the Star Forge giving Malak more potent Force techniques and providing more skill to weild them with, means that he is literally more powerful.

...no, I'm saying that if the article says his powers are "far greater than Exar Kun", it is unlikely that Exar Kun could overcome those powers regardless of what they are; otherwise, they wouldn't be "far greater" than him. Even the "damage reduction 5" skill you emphasized is more than just passive healing - it's an active durability boost which could easily tip the scales against someone in a fight.

So that's why Nihilus, Traya and Sion all killed the Exile. Because they had amazing powers that she didn't. Oh, wait....

I don't disagree that they help him in a fight, I do disagree that this means Malak wins a fight even if Kun is more powerful.

@The Ellimist wrote:
But given that we know what the primary combative use of those powers are(an internal boon to keep him fighting, not an external attack) then I really don't get why you're pushing this dead end argument.

...but you just conceded that the extra Force skills are across the board?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1220391476

Force skills are literally about how skillfully/masterfully he can weild Force techniques. That's what I conceded. How exactly is this 'across the board'.

@The Ellimist wrote:
You're making the two mean the same thing when there's no reason to think so. Malak will take longer to kill than he normally does. Who gives a shit?

If nobody gives a shit and Exar Kun can easily overcome it, why was it described as far greater than him?

Because the general potency of the arsenal of powers that Malak has compared to powers that Kun has, doesn't mean in any way that this places a limit on how Kun performs against him.

@The Ellimist wrote:And you haven't thought this through if you don't see how healing and durability amps could influence the outcome of a fight. If Exar Kun's attacks do less damage to Malak and Malak can heal himself from a basically infinite source while wearing Kun down, it could absolutely change the outcome of the battle. Were Kun able to overcome this and beat Malak anyway, the powers would not be described as "far greater than even Exar Kun".

1.Given a several years pre-Dark Holocron Kun could duel ferociously for hours before succumbing to exhaustion. I don't see how this is an issue.

2.You're applying a mountain of conjecture on that quote. The quote is saying that the Star Forge gives him additional Force techniques and ability to use them skillfully, it does not mean the powers are literally > Exar Kun. Christ alive.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Now you're saying that because the Force techniques the Star Forge gave him are 'far greater' than Exar Kun's, then he must win, because they're combat relevant.

No, I'm saying that either one is sufficient to give Malak the advantage. You keep pretending that it's all about life energy because a single quote says that, and then cite sources that actually say the opposite (when Malak says it "feeds his power", that implies that he's more powerful and/or gets a deeper reserve of Force power, which is a lot more than just healing).

You've yet to establish how that advantage makes up for the power disparity between Kun and Malak that instantaneously became an issue when you accidentally conceded that the quote doesn't mean Malak's personal power is > Kun's.

Malak IS getting more powerful, but in the context of the most canonical source we have, that wasn't the thing making him unstoppable nor was it even noteworthy enough compared to restoring his life force.

@The Ellimist wrote:Likewise, you keep arguing that healing and durability boosts don't actually change the outcome of fights but rather delay the inevitable, which begs the question of why it was described as making him "nearly unstoppable".

It made him nearly unstoppable because there was no one with the power to challenge him until Revan came back. Guess what? Those powers didn't save him against an exhausted and hindered Revan, even though it was a 'brutal, hard fought affair' without any obvious advantage.

@The Ellimist wrote:And you absolutely did argue that it was primarily non-combative. Specifically, you tried to argue that it was non-combative to get around the fact that it was described as "far greater than even Exar Kun", but have now dropped that to run around in circles again.

No, I said that the powers in the description aren't as combatively restrictive as you want them to be. They're nothing to do with the actual context we're provided with. Which only further supports what the Databank says. That the primary benefit of said powers per the most canonical source on the matter is the ability to replenish his life force in combat then no, it is not going to fit into your arbitrary claim that because they're to do with combat then it must mean that Malak has an advantage no matter what it actually refers to.

@The Ellimist wrote:
1.You're assuming I was making a leap where I didn't. Refer to the previous counter I made.

2.Considering Malak isn't more powerful than the Star Forge either, and more importantly, that the Star Forge was quite literally a living dark side nexus that manipulated an entire galaxy-wide civilisation telepathically so it could feed off of their energy as they slaughtered each other -and the fact it's called a galactic threat twice- kinda contradicts your idea.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1935072468 This response doesn't address what it was responding to at all. It's like you're pasting random points together with random parts of my post.

Exar Kun's threat level relative to the Star Forge is not nearly-exclusively a product of Force power, and certainly not of combative ability. It's also a product of:

- agency
- political positioning
- logistics
- military might

And a host of other variables. The most obvious difference is that while Exar Kun was a being actively threatening the galaxy, the Star Forge was a superweapon that might threaten the galaxy in the future if someone were to find it. Those aren't comparable threat levels at all. The notion that this conveys some Force power contest between Exar Kun and the Star Forge is blatantly dishonest.

If a quote is all-encompassing, then literally all possible angles of that quote are covered too. You keep saying that the Star Forge, a living, semi-sentient(this means active) dark side nexus capable of mentally manipulating an entire Empire, is not a threat at the time because it was dormant.

I'm not saying that the quote has one definitive, comparative meaning. It merely covers all of the threats to the galaxy prior to it.

@The Ellimist wrote:
o, I'm saying that he's literally saying that if Kyp can overcome this last battle then he's successfully came out of his 'testing' as a Jedi, which just so happens to be against forces as dire and powerful as the ones Luke went through.

So you think "forces as dire and powerful" refers to the personal Force powers of Exar Kun, even though that is contradictory to numerous OOU sources, an offhanded IU musing, and irrelevant to what Luke was actually thinking about, but "powers far greater than Exar Kun" might be about non-combative powers? Give me a fucking break.

No, because this quote like the other one covers all forces they each faced in their 'trial by fire' testing to become Jedi. That obviously includes the spirit of Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine. Obviously. The quote is saying that they were as dire and powerful as each other.

Once again, claiming something I never actually said but you inferred.

@The Ellimist wrote:
That both Palpatine and Kun are dark side nexuses/focal points and two of the greatest he's ever faced -there are no other confirmed living nexuses he's faced besides the two- clearly shows Kun is close because Palpatine being a dark side nexus by DE is literally what makes Luke say 'GG' and join the dark side. Note ROTJ Sheev isn't a nexus, but he is when he comes back much more powerful in DE. You can slot Kun in right there on the basis of this manifestation of his power. So unless you have DE Sheev in another tier from his ROTJ incarnation. Then Kun is on his tier.

You tried to switch "focal point" with "nexus". A "focal point" could refer to any concentration of the dark side, which would be any dark sider.

Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 3948126588
Focal point and nexus are the same thing:

Oxford Dictionary wrote:Definition of nexus - a connection or series of connections linking two or more things, a central or focal point.

For the love of Kevin Bacon.

@The Ellimist wrote:And we know that PT Sidious (who is described as a concentration of dark side energy that fills the entire galaxy in the RotS novelization) is the most powerful sith lord in history, a far more explicit comparison than this weird extrapolation.

You've still yet to prove this, however.

@The Ellimist wrote:
A quote from an article that's literally only about Yoda in the movies

Not how it works - it's a part of Legends. It doesn't have to mention other parts of Legends to be part of the story.

No, individual Star Wars Insider articles vary in being G-canon or C-canon. They're not all the same, at all. Taking an article that's basically an interview with Yoda's puppet actor and a producer for ROTS and pretending they're talking about C-canon in literally any fashion is ridiculous.

@The Ellimist wrote:
and about behind the scenes story decisions in ROTS regarding Yoda. Cool story.

So you take facebook messages authors respond to you with as authoritative, but not a published article?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1220391476

I'm not saying the article isn't authoritative, but that it has nothing to do with C-canon.

@The Ellimist wrote:
A Canon level 4 young readers book. Welp, I concede.

It's not canon; it was published in January 2012, before Disney even bought Star Wars, and long before it split the continuity. And young readers books are still a part of Legends. By itself, you could try to argue that it holds less weight than a more "adult" source, but it just reinforces the mountains of quotes we already have on the matter.

It was part of the The Phantom Menace 3D Re-Release media. That makes it a movie Canon book.

@The Ellimist wrote:
A Canon Visual Dictionary. *conceding intensifies*

What the fuck are you talking about? It was published in 2006.

Yes, and it only covers the movies. It's clearly a G-canon source because it contains literally nothing but G-canon (some T-canon too) and doesn't encompass C-canon.

@The Ellimist wrote:
By the way, that entire book became Disney Canon when they re-released it with an added-on The Force Awakens section.

So what? That's not mutually exclusive from it being a part of Legends, any more than TCW, etc. existing in both continuities is. Does the fact that the information is valid in Canon magically nullify its existence in Legends? Why?

Is there some magical force that prevents a fact from appearing in both?

Given, like I said, that it's a G-canon source. Then no.

@The Ellimist wrote:Oh, and since you seem to buy that Exar Kun's "most powerful Sith of all" quotes refers to dead Sith like Ragnos too:

Yes, Kun was 'Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith.' Which has to be a historical reference because the setting of the quote is after Ulic betrays him. It obviously refers to him in his prime:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the dark spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees.

He can't be the most powerful of the Dark Lords, when there's only one.

@The Ellimist wrote:
When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style. Grand Master Yoda took on Darth Sidious in the Senate building on Coruscant and proved that strength and power have nothing to do with size.

--Jedi Battles

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

--Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1

Neither of them are historically encompassing though.

@The Ellimist wrote:
You mean besides the one that literally says he is?

...what kind of a response is this? So you're just abandoning the quote and moving to another one? Because what you were quoting doesn't actually do anything to compare Palpatine and Exar Kun, so concession accepted, I guess.

Yeah, no, you unsuccessfully tried to debunk them.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Given he scales far beyond Ood Bnar

And Palpatine doesn't?

How is that defeating my point?

@The Ellimist wrote:
who destroyed a canonically combative rival of Luke;

Er, what?

TCSWE says Sedriss could've defeated Luke.

@The Ellimist wrote:
that he's capable of binding Luke's spirit whilst successfully possessing and dominating Kyp Durron as a spirit;

Lol, it's funny how you phrase it as if Exar Kun's control of Kyp Durron was inhibiting him rather than key to his accomplishment.

You're right and wrong. He still had to maintain the control, and simultaneously maintain keeping Luke out of his body.

@The Ellimist wrote:
scales above his spirit who is a stated peer of Kueller who was also stated to be more powerful than BFC!Luke

Stated by IU sources, stated otherwise by OOU sources.

You mean OOU sources that don't contain the full context?

@The Ellimist wrote:
and the most powerful living being since Palpatine.

Wow, I just explained how this doesn't say anything about him being as powerful as Palpatine?

I know, I'm not saying it is. But Kun >> spirit!Kun > Kueller suggests Kun is considerably beyond Kueller, too. Who is stated to have the potential to surpass Palpatine if not stopped soon by Mara Jade who absolutely doesn't bullshit on these matters, infamously so.

@The Ellimist wrote:
No his material, decisions and opinions went directly through George Lucas who personally approved his ideas or took direct control over many of the decisions about Exar Kun. Such as whether to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith or another random Dark Jedi, whether he could have a double-bladed lightsaber, to make him a new kind of Force-user, etc.

His published material went through such an approval process. That doesn't mean Lucas approved of everything he mused to himself but didn't write down.

You know full well what I mean, per Tom and Kevin they consulted Lucas and Lucasfilm on everything. They clearly knew what they were doing.

@The Ellimist wrote:
More valuable? No. Something we can derive interpretation from when analysing the other quotes in question? Yes.

Unless if you can debunk the Palpatine supremacy quotes, this gets you nowhere.

Thankfully, I have.

@The Ellimist wrote:
1.Kreia said so because she had read all of the dozens of ancient Sith holocrons and all the information in the Trayus Academy for a clear picture. Which is why Chris Avellone says that she's making accurate estimations, because of said holocrons. She literally taught him the ancient Sith ability and knows what its upper limits are through those who used it. It's also consistent with the fact that the Sith Triumvirate, namely Darth Nihilus himself, was resurrecting Freedon Nadd on Dxun to win the war. Which is also consistent with the fact that Visas Marr is in awe of the power of Freedon Nadd's tomb, Visas Marr being the person who knows Nihilus' prime power better than anybody else on the matter.

This makes her more reliable than several OOU sources?

No, but given there's literally nothing that suggests she's wrong, with all indications she is right..

@The Ellimist wrote:
3.Neither of those have been personally dismissed by Leland Chee.

More dishonest evasiveness from you. A generic dismissal of the idea of power rankings doesn't only apply to some quotes because you happened to strategically choose to ask him about some quotes and not others.

LMAO. I had nothing to do with his statement. He said they don't take all-time most powerful Sith quotes as absolute.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Both of them became spirits that survived well after their time.

Exar Kun was forced to, and only survived via an external nexus.

They also came closest to a return on their own accord.

Based on conditional events thousands of years later?

But I digress, you wanted to explore reasons for their inclusions.

And there are no coherent ones other than because they were notable and powerful.

Per you, certainly.

@The Ellimist wrote:
Except the cybernetics weren't the question at hand, the life support was. That was the plausible explanation. The function of life support is literally in the name. You're applying a Force context where none is implied. That the Star Forge just so happens to provide the same thing, life support, isn't a random occurrence.

What the fuck? The cybernetics are the life support. The sentence literally refers to it as "cybernetic enhancement". Then you literally conceded that the article grants Force powers across the board rather than in that narrow domain, and are apparently backtracking. Like, what the fuck?

I never backtracked, I got you to read your own quote which you claimed was a definitive indicator of what 'powers' meant. Which is literally three extra Force techniques, being more skilled at using them, and having enough extra energy for a single Force attack.

You however have backtracked here. You went from 'clearly personal power' in your first reply to 'Malak wins anyway because the Force techniques are greater'.

@The Ellimist wrote:You seem to think that because it's called "life support", it can't possibly do anything else, even though the whole point is that it did more.

Nah the whole point was that cybernetic life support was too simple an explanation. The reference is to the Star Forge, and per the most canonical source we have, the ability to replenish his life force was comparatively disproportionate to all the other benefits the Star Forge afforded him, as the reason for why Malak was almost unstoppable.

@The Ellimist wrote:
It says him adapting the Star Forge to allow him to replenish his life support by draining it from Jedi captives is what made Malak almost unstoppable. Not Malak was powered by the Star Forge, which made him almost unstoppable. Your issue is with the Databank, not me.

Ridiculous semantics; the Star Forge is what makes the draining more potent than just using Force drain on them.

Given that it's tangibly different in almost every manner then yes and no. It's stated to be the means by which he can do this, not merely amplifying a prior ability.

@The Ellimist wrote:
You seem to be assuming that I don't recognise the other quotes, but I'm not dismissing them at all. I'm taking the most canonical source on the matter and applying it with them. That source doesn't even bother to make reference to the rest of said benefits, which is why I take it to mean there's a disproportianate degree of import between the two.

Yet "powers" in the article isn't referring disproportionately to healing, as you conceded yourself, which means that the scaling actually goes:

Malak's life force healing > Malak's "powers" >> Exar Kun

How you possibly managed to come to this conclusion is mind-boggling. The 'powers' are very clearly in reference to this immeasurably important factor in Malak's unstoppability or the 'life support' wouldn't be so conveniently placed as a plausible but insufficient explanation for what provided said powers.

I'm actually concerned for your well-being if you think Force techniques are literally more powerful than Exar Kun himself.

@The Ellimist wrote:
As if threat isn't including potential somehow, when that's exactly what threat levels are based on.

Threat levels aren't just about full capacity; they're also based on probability. Exar Kun was definitely wrecking havoc, while the Star Forge might get discovered by someone capable of using it.

The Star Forge's activeness really isn't relevant here, though. It doesn't suddenly stop being semi-sentient.

@The Ellimist wrote:
No, it's easy.

Per the logic of many here, Malak has the Star Forge to amp him, permanently and  consistently. The Star Forge is far more powerful than Byss pre-construction, Sheev by his own admittance is amplified by an 'exponential flood' when he uses the Force there. If Malak is harnessing the Star Forge to become more and more powerful, to the point it hits 300% of what the Sith initially thought its capacity would be, and Sheev's Force power is 'exponentially' increased by a far less powerful source. Then this naturally indicates that Malak amped by the SF would be more powerful than pre-ROTJ Sheev amped by pre-construction Byss.

Feel free to keep arguing the SF is a perma amp, that'll take you places real fast.

...once again, it's like you didn't even bother to read what you were responding to. Let me post it again:

You still didn't answer the question; how does this imply Malak > Sidious? Are you trying to imply that the Star Forge > Sidious because Sidious is < or close to Byss?

The only way this argument makes any sense is if you actually take "exponentially" literally and assert that the Byss nexus adds its power to Sidious's, so by implication the Byss nexus is much more powerful than Sidious. Let's do that; then we have Byss Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious; and since DE Sidious > Byss nexus and you think Byss nexus >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIdious, DE Sidious >>>>>>>>>>>>> RotS Sidious > Exar Kun. Congratulations?

If your next reply includes more evasive circle-running dishonesty, I think I'll have to end this conversation.

I literally answered why scaling can be argued, what are you reading?

You're accusing me of things with literally no basis, if you're looking for a way out of this debate whilst saving face, just cease replying. You've already backpedalled massively from your initial reply.

If all you have left is 'those powers are combatively applicable!' as an argument, what's even the point?

We have established that 'powers' in the Malak quote do not mean literal Force prowess. That's the main and most significant point of debate here. It's over.
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 3:42 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
Likewise, you keep arguing that healing and durability boosts don't actually change the outcome of fights but rather delay the inevitable, which begs the question of why it was described as making him "nearly unstoppable".

It made him nearly unstoppable because there was no one with the power to challenge him until Revan came back. Guess what? Those powers didn't save him against an exhausted and hindered Revan, even though it was a 'brutal, hard fought affair' without any obvious advantage.

That doesn't answer the question; if it was just that there was nobody to challenge him in the first place, there'd be no need for the amp to make him nearly unstoppable. That clearly isn't why he became "nearly unstoppable".

The key question here is why would his powers be described as "far greater than even Exar Kun?" if Exar Kun could easily overcome said powers?

The three critical flaws in all of your attempted rebuttals:

  1. It's not mainly healing based*. We know this because the article explicitly goes over the amp, and it's in the form of several Force feats and skills unrelated to healing, essentially a free Force point, and a single damage reduction ability that could be considered related to healing. 
  2. Even if you think it's mainly healing based, all of the stated benefits are for primarily combat related skills. Do you think "damage reduction" from attacks is to protect Malak from falls?
  3. Your claim that healing can't change the outcome of a fight is both ridiculous (can you seriously not imagine how that could help in a fight?) and contradictory to the claim that the powers are "far greater than even Exar Kun". If Exar Kun could overcome them, they would not be "far greater than" him. And it doesn't say far greater than Exar Kun's powers or abilities - it says far greater than Exar Kun himself.

* or, if there's an even more potent healing benefit, it's not what was mentioned in the article, which was concealing information about Malak and potentially not referring to him in the final battle, which would scale: SF healing powers > article's SF powers >>> Exar Kun.

You've tried to bring up that this doesn't mean Malak is literally more powerful. This is a complete red herring. Even if this were true - and I don't see how it is for reasons I've provided - it's separate from the question of why the powers are described as "far greater than Exar Kun" and then translated into combat-based skills and feats.

And no, I'm not "backtracking" by focusing on this instead of the question of general power growth. I'm trying to get you to honestly respond to this point, which you have yet to actually do. If anyone is backtracking it's you:

After I said:

The game mechanic implementation provides clear insight into the intended meaning behind "powers", unless if there's an in-game reason why they would refuse to implement the power source as primarily healing-based if that's what they wanted, or if two authors were writing the same article and disagreed or something.

You replied with:

Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

You then pivoted into discussing whether it refers to a general power growth, which is a separate question from whether the "powers" are broadly combat related.

Can you address this a little more coherently before we move on with the other points?
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 8:41 pm
So just to be overt, I don't plan on going much further, if at all, in this debate. Simply because I can't debate you and write the biggest respect thread on Kun I've ever done simultaneously. Forgive me if I prioritise that over this.

But I'll answer your last post, at the very least.

But people seem to have enjoyed it, when we started this thread had 1400 views. Now it's 2100.
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 9:06 pm
I know I enjoyed, lmao.
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Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

on August 30th 2019, 9:56 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
Likewise, you keep arguing that healing and durability boosts don't actually change the outcome of fights but rather delay the inevitable, which begs the question of why it was described as making him "nearly unstoppable".

It made him nearly unstoppable because there was no one with the power to challenge him until Revan came back. Guess what? Those powers didn't save him against an exhausted and hindered Revan, even though it was a 'brutal, hard fought affair' without any obvious advantage.

That doesn't answer the question; if it was just that there was nobody to challenge him in the first place, there'd be no need for the amp to make him nearly unstoppable. That clearly isn't why he became "nearly unstoppable".

The key question here is why would his powers be described as "far greater than even Exar Kun?" if Exar Kun could easily overcome said powers?

The techniques themselves are 'far greater' than those Exar Kun has. This isn't hard to understand.

@The Ellimist wrote:The three critical flaws in all of your attempted rebuttals:

  1. It's not mainly healing based*. We know this because the article explicitly goes over the amp, and it's in the form of several Force feats and skills unrelated to healing, essentially a free Force point, and a single damage reduction ability that could be considered related to healing.

Except we're never told what those powers are, that the Databank, the description and the Damage Reduction section all make explicit references to a mysterious source which grants him the ability to unnaturally extend his life force during combat paints a very good picture of what they are.

@The Ellimist wrote:
  • Even if you think it's mainly healing based, all of the stated benefits are for primarily combat related skills. Do you think "damage reduction" from attacks is to protect Malak from falls?

  • I didn't deny that they were combat related, I denied your initial insistence that the 'powers' listed couldn't possibly refer to his life force and must be an explicit in-combat boons that must mean he beats Kun regardless.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
  • Your claim that healing can't change the outcome of a fight is both ridiculous (can you seriously not imagine how that could help in a fight?) and contradictory to the claim that the powers are "far greater than even Exar Kun". If Exar Kun could overcome them, they would not be "far greater than" him. And it doesn't say far greater than Exar Kun's powers or abilities - it says far greater than Exar Kun himself.

  • I didn't say they can't change the outcome of a fight but the fact is that Kun's not tiring for hours upons hours and Malak healing in a fight doesn't mean he wins. Kun has demonstrated feats with conventional abilities that are far beyond anything Malak has shown.

    That Malak has techniques the article claims are 'far greater' than those Kun has, doesn't mean that he absolutely must win a fight.

    Again, the potency of Malak's Star Forge garnered techniques being greater than the techniques Kun weilds. Does not mean that this constitutes Kun losing.

    @The Ellimist wrote:* or, if there's an even more potent healing benefit, it's not what was mentioned in the article, which was concealing information about Malak and potentially not referring to him in the final battle, which would scale: SF healing powers > article's SF powers >>> Exar Kun.

    You're quite literally making this up. The description can very clearly refer to the Star Forge as the life support it is in reference to. You've continuously ignored/handwaved the Databank quote as if it can't be a supporting indicator for the drastic importance of the life force draining technique amongst the powers that are referenced in the article.

    @The Ellimist wrote:You've tried to bring up that this doesn't mean Malak is literally more powerful. This is a complete red herring. Even if this were true - and I don't see how it is for reasons I've provided - it's separate from the question of why the powers are described as "far greater than Exar Kun" and then translated into combat-based skills and feats.

    They aren't literally more powerful than Kun, lmfao. The techniques are themselves far greater in their own right than the techniques Kun has to bare. That's all it means.

    @The Ellimist wrote:And no, I'm not "backtracking" by focusing on this instead of the question of general power growth. I'm trying to get you to honestly respond to this point, which you have yet to actually do. If anyone is backtracking it's you:

    After I said:

    The game mechanic implementation provides clear insight into the intended meaning behind "powers", unless if there's an in-game reason why they would refuse to implement the power source as primarily healing-based if that's what they wanted, or if two authors were writing the same article and disagreed or something.

    You replied with:

    Alright, I concede. But not for your benefit. You probably shouldn't have pushed the issue here. There are a total of two references to the mysterious power source in the game part of the article. Here's why neither of them are supporting your case.

    You then pivoted into discussing whether it refers to a general power growth, which is a separate question from whether the "powers" are broadly combat related.

    LMFAO. I stated that those quotes are likely not relevant because the description is the only thing that isn't game mechanics. You stated the game quotes absolutely must be an indicator for clarifying what the powers in the description are. I proved even further that they only support that the description is referring to techniques and not personal power. You then continued arguing that Malak must win anyway because the techniques he has from the Star Forge are better.
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

    on August 30th 2019, 11:49 pm
    I think you're mixing a lot of conversation threads together. As in, you'll respond to a topic about X by talking about a separate topic Y and then jump back to X and bring the debate in a circle. With that in mind:

    @LadyKulvax wrote:The techniques themselves are 'far greater' than those Exar Kun has. This isn't hard to understand.

    What shouldn't be "hard to understand" are the multiple times I've noted that the article says Malak's powers are far greater than "Exar Kun" not "Exar Kun's [powers]".

    It would be incredibly deceptive to say Malak gets "powers", define them later in the article as not only a wide quantity of Force powers, but also high skill levels in each, and a huge durability boost, and extra Force reserves, on top of a general boost in Force power that you've agreed to him having, all of which holistically has been described as making him "nearly unstoppable" (note: a holistic statement about his overall combat ability), and then for there to be an unspoken "but psyke! Exar Kun really ragdolls him, by 'powers' we just meant he had better healing abilities than Kun did!"

    When Anakin said "my powers have doubled since the last time we met Count", do you think he meant "I learned some new Force speed maneuvers, but I'm not actually that much more formidable than I was before"?

    I didn't say they can't change the outcome of a fight but the fact is that Kun's not tiring for hours upons hours and Malak healing in a fight doesn't mean he wins. Kun has demonstrated feats with conventional abilities that are far beyond anything Malak has shown.

    That's not the only way healing (and durability - see "damage reduction 5") could impact the outcome of the fight. Malak also "feeds" on its "power", which suggests that his Force reserves are also getting a deeper well, something depicted in the article with Malak getting extra Force points. So:
    • With deeper Force reserves, Malak can spam Force techniques that would normally exhaust him. So Malak's highest-effort attacks could end up being used at a comparable rate to Exar Kun's standard attacks.
    • With deeper Force reserves, Malak could draw deeply on the dark side for Force augmentation to a degree where he would otherwise only be able to do in a short burst.
    • With healing and durability, Malak can change the way he fights - he can go for a decapitating strike and leave a part of himself open, and still win anyway.

    etc. It's not just about outlasting the opponent - it pretty fundamentally changes the way you can fight, akin to how Bane's orbalisks grant him new options in combat beyond just saving him from lethal blows.

    And, once again, we go back to the fact that if Exar Kun could easily overcome Malak's healing powers, they wouldn't be "far greater than" him.

    That Malak has techniques the article claims are 'far greater' than those Kun has,

    Correction: far greater than Exar Kun, not the techniques he has.

    doesn't mean that he absolutely must win a fight.

    Not "absolutely must", but it's a very strong indicator that he would. In addition to a general power increase, Darth Malak gets a broad array of Force powers beyond Exar Kun, he gets skill in them far beyond Exar Kun, and he gets extra Force reserves far beyond Exar Kun. He may then get an additional, even more haxxed life energy boost that isn't really mentioned in the article, which is understandable because the article may not be referring to final-fight Malak given its ambiguity about where he gets his power (which wouldn't be ambiguous if he were on the Star Forge).

    You're quite literally making this up. The description can very clearly refer to the Star Forge as the life support it is in reference to. You've continuously ignored/handwaved the Databank quote as if it can't be a supporting indicator for the drastic importance of the life force draining technique amongst the powers that are referenced in the article.

    ...but the article elaborates on what the effects are, and they aren't exclusively or even primarily related to healing?

    If there's an even greater healing power, then it just scales above the explicitly non-healing benefits described in the article, which scale above Exar Kun. Remember that the article is being mysterious about Malak's powers, and Malak's power grows throughout KotOR until you confront him on the Star Forge.

    They aren't literally more powerful than Kun, lmfao. The techniques are themselves far greater in their own right than the techniques Kun has to bare. That's all it means.

    That's not what the grammar indicates (it says "Exar Kun", not "Exar Kun's"), nor is it the most honest and straightforward interpretation. When Dooku tells Obi Wan "my Jedi powers are far beyond yours", he wasn't saying "I have a better set of techniques than you but you may have more power!". That's not the most plausible interpretation.

    I proved even further that they only support that the description is referring to techniques and not personal power.

    I actually explained why this isn't necessarily the case, and got no response. But more crucially, as I said in what you just quoted, whether it relates to personal power is irrelevant.

    You then continued arguing that Malak must win anyway because the techniques he has from the Star Forge are better.

    I've noted probably half a dozen times by now that the sentence compares the powers to Exar Kun and not Exar Kun's powers. I did that to actively preempt this argument, but it was apparently of no use because you just ignored it every time anyway.

    Let me be give a more coherent framing of your position: you can acknowledge that your convoluted interpretation of "powers far greater than Exar Kun" really meaning that Exar Kun can actually walk through those powers anyway isn't the most straightforward or reasonable interpretation by itself, and that if the article were the only information we had, you'd agree that Malak was obviously superior. You can note, however, that Exar Kun's vastly superior feats and counteracting accolades (if you could demonstrate them - which you haven't) are too substantial to just toss away, so we have to come up with a rationalization of the article that fits under the greater body of evidence, even if the rationalization is not straightforward. We do this often to deal with outlier / contradicting quotes. Then we can have a conversation and address some of your claims about Exar Kun's superiority outside of the article.
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

    on August 31st 2019, 10:40 pm
    I'll get back to this in a few hours.
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

    on September 1st 2019, 2:51 am
    @The Ellimist wrote:
    @LadyKulvax wrote:The techniques themselves are 'far greater' than those Exar Kun has. This isn't hard to understand.

    What shouldn't be "hard to understand" are the multiple times I've noted that the article says Malak's powers are far greater than "Exar Kun" not "Exar Kun's [powers]".

    This is an utterly insane interpretation to make. The quote is absolutely not saying that Force techniques, skills at using them and a small boon to his Force reserves are collectively more powerful than Exar Kun himself in and of themselves. Jesus Christ.

    @The Ellimist wrote:It would be incredibly deceptive to say Malak gets "powers", define them later in the article as not only a wide quantity of Force powers, but also high skill levels in each, and a huge durability boost, and extra Force reserves, on top of a general boost in Force power that you've agreed to him having, all of which holistically has been described as making him "nearly unstoppable" (note: a holistic statement about his overall combat ability), and then for there to be an unspoken "but psyke! Exar Kun really ragdolls him, by 'powers' we just meant he had better healing abilities than Kun did!"

    Lol, you're arbitrarily defining the quote as meaning Kun is literally incapable of winning because of 'far greater' as a defining claim. When 'greater' by itself isn't a limited term here:

    Oxford Dictionary wrote:comparative adjective: greater
    1.
    of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

    Care to tell me why your interpretation is literally the only valid one? You proved yourself that 'powers' is in plural, that it's an amount of things. 'Greater' can literally mean more.

    @The Ellimist wrote:When Anakin said "my powers have doubled since the last time we met Count", do you think he meant "I learned some new Force speed maneuvers, but I'm not actually that much more formidable than I was before"?

    Yes, because that's exactly the same context.  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1019854026

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    I didn't say they can't change the outcome of a fight but the fact is that Kun's not tiring for hours upons hours and Malak healing in a fight doesn't mean he wins. Kun has demonstrated feats with conventional abilities that are far beyond anything Malak has shown.

    That's not the only way healing (and durability - see "damage reduction 5") could impact the outcome of the fight. Malak also "feeds" on its "power", which suggests that his Force reserves are also getting a deeper well, something depicted in the article with Malak getting extra Force points. So:

    • With deeper Force reserves, Malak can spam Force techniques that would normally exhaust him. So Malak's highest-effort attacks could end up being used at a comparable rate to Exar Kun's standard attacks.
    • With deeper Force reserves, Malak could draw deeply on the dark side for Force augmentation to a degree where he would otherwise only be able to do in a short burst.
    • With healing and durability, Malak can change the way he fights - he can go for a decapitating strike and leave a part of himself open, and still win anyway.

    etc. It's not just about outlasting the opponent - it pretty fundamentally changes the way you can fight, akin to how Bane's orbalisks grant him new options in combat beyond just saving him from lethal blows.

    And, once again, we go back to the fact that if Exar Kun could easily overcome Malak's healing powers, they wouldn't be "far greater than" him.

    1.Your entire premise is based on conjecture, and far from the original point of debate.

    2.You're still yet to prove that literally any of this is a binding statement.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    That Malak has techniques the article claims are 'far greater' than those Kun has,

    Correction: far greater than Exar Kun, not the techniques he has.

    This is genuinely IQ dropping at this point. You genuinely believe that the Star Forge provides him some powers that are by themselves more powerful than Exar Kun is. You were on the west coast and have just backpedalled to the east coast. Congratulations, you just powered the state of North Carolina with your backpedalling.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    doesn't mean that he absolutely must win a fight.

    Not "absolutely must", but it's a very strong indicator that he would. In addition to a general power increase, Darth Malak gets a broad array of Force powers beyond Exar Kun, he gets skill in them far beyond Exar Kun, and he gets extra Force reserves far beyond Exar Kun. He may then get an additional, even more haxxed life energy boost that isn't really mentioned in the article, which is understandable because the article may not be referring to final-fight Malak given its ambiguity about where he gets his power (which wouldn't be ambiguous if he were on the Star Forge).

    Again, you're just going off on a conjectural tirade and expecting me to take this as if it's the only meaningful interpretation and that it's definitive. It isn't.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    You're quite literally making this up. The description can very clearly refer to the Star Forge as the life support it is in reference to. You've continuously ignored/handwaved the Databank quote as if it can't be a supporting indicator for the drastic importance of the life force draining technique amongst the powers that are referenced in the article.

    ...but the article elaborates on what the effects are, and they aren't exclusively or even primarily related to healing?

    If there's an even greater healing power, then it just scales above the explicitly non-healing benefits described in the article, which scale above Exar Kun. Remember that the article is being mysterious about Malak's powers, and Malak's power grows throughout KotOR until you confront him on the Star Forge.

    Wut? I literally provided you with the list earlier.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    They aren't literally more powerful than Kun, lmfao. The techniques are themselves far greater in their own right than the techniques Kun has to bare. That's all it means.

    That's not what the grammar indicates (it says "Exar Kun", not "Exar Kun's"), nor is it the most honest and straightforward interpretation. When Dooku tells Obi Wan "my Jedi powers are far beyond yours", he wasn't saying "I have a better set of techniques than you but you may have more power!". That's not the most plausible interpretation.

    But you expect me to take your interpretation of the 'grammar' to mean the quote is absolutely, definitely saying that the Star Forge's power boost is literally more powerful than Exar Kun. That's not even taking Malak himself into account. LMFAO.

    The quote is just as easily saying Malak is being provided with far more powers than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd. An interpretation that isn't brain cell destructive.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    I proved even further that they only support that the description is referring to techniques and not personal power.

    I actually explained why this isn't necessarily the case, and got no response. But more crucially, as I said in what you just quoted, whether it relates to personal power is irrelevant.

    My response was that you yourself insisted the 'powers' are explained by the rest of the article.

    @The Ellimist wrote:
    You then continued arguing that Malak must win anyway because the techniques he has from the Star Forge are better.

    I've noted probably half a dozen times by now that the sentence compares the powers to Exar Kun and not Exar Kun's powers. I did that to actively preempt this argument, but it was apparently of no use because you just ignored it every time anyway.

    Because you're apparently an authority on what it must mean rather than what it could. One of those is absolutely, in no way possible, that the powers Malak recieves are > Exar Kun. This is the most ludicrous assertion I've seen in quite a long time.

    @The Ellimist wrote:Let me be give a more coherent framing of your position: you can acknowledge that your convoluted interpretation of "powers far greater than Exar Kun" really meaning that Exar Kun can actually walk through those powers anyway isn't the most straightforward or reasonable interpretation by itself, and that if the article were the only information we had, you'd agree that Malak was obviously superior. You can note, however, that Exar Kun's vastly superior feats and counteracting accolades (if you could demonstrate them - which you haven't) are too substantial to just toss away, so we have to come up with a rationalization of the article that fits under the greater body of evidence, even if the rationalization is not straightforward. We do this often to deal with outlier / contradicting quotes. Then we can have a conversation and address some of your claims about Exar Kun's superiority outside of the article.

    This asserts that the obvious is merely a claim when there's no argument even possibly favoring Malak outside of this one interpretation of a quote in an article that was deleted, twice replaced by its publishing company, and is apparently as credible as WOTC gameplay stats.

    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 2265358366
    The Ellimist
    The Ellimist
    Moderator
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

    on September 1st 2019, 4:19 am
    @LadyKulvax wrote:This is an utterly insane interpretation to make. The quote is absolutely not saying that Force techniques, skills at using them and a small boon to his Force reserves are collectively more powerful than Exar Kun himself in and of themselves. Jesus Christ.

    Collectively greater, and that "insane interpretation" is just grammar. The quote says "far greater than Exar Kun", not "far greater than Exar Kun's"; the possessive isn't used.

    If Exar Kun were able to easily defeat Darth Malak as you claim he is, Malak's (demonstrably combat) powers would not be greater than Exar Kun, and the quote wouldn't make any sense.

    But let's humor you and say that maybe this was just bad grammar, and the article really meant that Malak's powers were greater than Exar Kun's powers. That still doesn't help your case, because how "great" the powers are does not just refer to how many or how esoteric they are, since:

    1. "greater" is holistic
    2. The elaboration of the powers given includes significant bonuses in the magnitude and reserves behind the powers

    This means that the description would already account for overall power, because overall power feeds into how great the powers are. You can't realistically separate the "greatness" of one's powers from one's innate Force power. If anything, "powers" is more directly applicable than "power", because the former is how the latter manifests.

    Lol, you're arbitrarily defining the quote as meaning Kun is literally incapable of winning because of 'far greater' as a defining claim. When 'greater' by itself isn't a limited term here:

    Oxford Dictionary wrote:comparative adjective: greater
    1.
    of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

    Care to tell me why your interpretation is literally the only valid one? You proved yourself that 'powers' is in plural, that it's an amount of things. 'Greater' can literally mean more.

    ...  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1935072468 You earlier tried to use "two of the greatest focal points" and "the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!" as points for Exar Kun's personal power, and throw them around all the time, but now you're saying that "great" has an ambiguous meaning?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 815462187

    In fact, I just looked at your Exar Kun respect thread on SI and you have literally dozens of quotes that use the adjective "great".  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 2829155256

    No, "greater" does not refer to "more" in this context:

    1. The comparison is between Malak's powers and Exar Kun, not Exar Kun's powers; since Exar Kun is a singular entity, technically having two powers would be "more", so that's clearly not the point.

    2. No semi-competent writer would use "greater" in such an awkward, confusing way to mean "more numerous".

    3. The article's elaboration on the powers talks about things beyond quantity, like a unique damage reduction one, bonus skill points, and extra Force reserves.

    Essentially what you're trying to do is to reinterpret the quote to be as convoluted and divorced from the straightforward interpretation as possible so you can pretend that Malak's powers being "far greater than" Exar Kun doesn't cast any doubt on Exar Kun's ability to win.

    1.Your entire premise is based on conjecture, and far from the original point of debate.

    ...you claimed that there was no way healing powers could change the outcome of a fight, and then when someone proposes several, you just vaguely dismiss them as "conjecture" with zero elaboration?  Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 1220391476

    Not that I even need to deal with this dishonest evasiveness given that the very article primarily attributes powers other than healing to the Star Forge amp. Why do you keep denying this?

    2.You're still yet to prove that literally any of this is a binding statement.

    I'm saying that the quote says that Malak has an overwhelming advantage in a fight. Whether you think the quote's own authority is overriden is a completely separate matter, and not one you have made any cogent case on.

    @The Ellimist wrote:This is genuinely IQ dropping at this point. You genuinely believe that the Star Forge provides him some powers that are by themselves more powerful than Exar Kun is. You were on the west coast and have just backpedalled to the east coast. Congratulations, you just powered the state of North Carolina with your backpedalling.

    No, it says "greater", and if Exar Kun could easily overcome Malak's powers, then Malak's powers (which, as has been thoroughly demonstrated, gets elaborated in the article to be almost exclusively combat abilities) could not be described as "greater than" his.

    And I "genuinely believe" in it because that's the unambiguous grammatical structuring of the sentence.

    Again, you're just going off on a conjectural tirade and expecting me to take this as if it's the only meaningful interpretation and that it's definitive. It isn't.

    If Exar Kun could overcome Malak's combat powers in combat, why would the powers be described as greater than him?

    Wut? I literally provided you with the list earlier.

    ...the list of Force abilities and feats? Basically all of them are combat ones.

    The quote is just as easily saying Malak is being provided with far more powers than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd. An interpretation that isn't brain cell destructive.

    No fluent English speaker would write "his powers were far greater than Exar Kun" to mean "he had a larger number of powers than Exar Kun". That's an absurdly clunky usage of the word "greater"; your cherry-picking of a search result may not tell you that, but anybody who is fluent in the language would agree. At most, the number of powers can be a criteria, but the elaboration of the article gives Malak bonuses in the level of the powers and Force reserves as well, in addition to a special damage reduction ability.

    If I wanted to say that, I'd say "with a far vaster array of powers" or "far more numerous powers".

    My response was that you yourself insisted the 'powers' are explained by the rest of the article.

    I have no idea how this response addresses anything. I already explained how this doesn't mean he does not get a general power amp.

    This asserts that the obvious is merely a claim when there's no argument even possibly favoring Malak outside of this one interpretation of a quote in an article that was deleted, twice replaced by its publishing company, and is apparently as credible as WOTC gameplay stats.

    Yeah, no need to entertain the possibility that someone who harnessed the power of a Rakatan superweapon "of invincible might" that drains energy from a star to construct endless fleets of warships capable of waging a galactic war, but which ability is less significant than its ability to feed one's power to become "nearly invincible", whose maps provided the original exiles with their power,  and which Vitiate actively tried to pursue, could be really powerful right?
    EmperorCaedus
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

    on November 5th 2019, 7:51 pm
    Malak wins
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    Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun - Page 7 Empty Re: Star Forge Malak V Exar Kun

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