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Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis  - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis

on July 30th 2019, 9:36 pm
DC77 wrote:Nearly every word written in that sentence was wrong. I'll articulate why after I finish my post to you (Which might be done sooner than expected, I'm nearly done mulling over my personal crisis and finishing my school essay).

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Meatpants (away)
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on July 30th 2019, 9:42 pm
DC77 wrote:Screw it, I'll respond now.

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Meatpants (away)
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on July 30th 2019, 9:44 pm
Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.
PeraltaEagle45
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on July 30th 2019, 9:52 pm
Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

Dark Transfer should be a greater factor than MCM.
Meatpants (away)
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on July 31st 2019, 3:21 am
SithArchaeologist wrote:
Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

Dark Transfer should be a greater factor than MCM.

Nah, don't think so.
CuckedCurry
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on July 31st 2019, 3:26 am
Plagueis would laugh at DT
Azronger
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on July 31st 2019, 6:49 am
Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

These are my thoughts as well
Quorian Debatist
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on July 31st 2019, 4:40 pm
Meatpants wrote:Anyway, even if Krayt is more powerful conventionally, midi-chlorian manipulation seals the deal imo.

Can you show some examples of how usable offensive MM is in combat? I'm curious how well and easy it works.
The Ellimist
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Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis  - Page 2 Empty Darth Krayt vs. Darth Plagueis

on September 8th 2019, 6:33 am
Who wins?
HellfireUnit
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Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis  - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis

on September 8th 2019, 6:36 am
Plagueis imo
MasterCilghal
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on September 8th 2019, 6:36 am
Peak Krayt wins in a fairly good fight.
Shioz
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on September 8th 2019, 7:36 am
Krayt.
The Ellimist
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on September 8th 2019, 7:38 am
I put Krayt and Plagueis on roughly the same tier. I'll give it to Plagueis due to his midichlorian manipulation.
Azronger
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on September 8th 2019, 8:15 am
@The Ellimist I merged your thread with the existing one. Please use the search filter to see if the topic in question has already been made to avoid making duplicate threads in the future.
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on September 8th 2019, 8:16 am
On topic, Plagueis can win with his midi-chlorian manipulation. Krayt wins this otherwise.
The Ellimist
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on September 8th 2019, 8:46 am
I frankly don't see the Apocalypse fight as implying any sort of parity between Luke and Krayt, and that's the only real case I can see for Krayt being above Plagueis.

I'm inclined to think that their Beyond Shadows selves are closer to their "true potential" - perhaps not literally, but in some sort of raw power sense - which would likely put the spirit Apoc Krayt on Krayt Reborn's level. While he is powerful enough to be relevant in the fight, if one looks at it carefully there isn't any indication that he's as powerful as Luke, or in the same tier as him. He's just able to help. I guess his Force drain affecting Abeloth is a pretty potent feat though.

I happen to think that Plagueis is around the threshold at where one would be relevant in that Beyond Shadows fight.
CuckedCurry
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on September 8th 2019, 9:44 am
@CuckedCurry wrote:Krayt is closer to Whie Malreux than he is to Plagueis
MasterCilghal
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on September 8th 2019, 11:02 am
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:
DC77 wrote:@SithArchaeologist Would you mind articulating why you think the Abeloth fight demonstrates parity between Skywalker and Krayt?

It's very simple. Krayt and Luke performed similarly in the battle. They both did similar amounts of damage and ended the fight with similar levels of injury. One could even make the argument that Krayt had a larger overall impact on the fight through his drain, which affected all of the Abeloth avatars, allowing each to be defeated.
Krayt has no parity with Luke. We know from past instances that a force user can draw upon the font of power, Which is described by Ben as the most powerful nexus in the galaxy: 
Abyss wrote:When he reached the basin, Luke could finally see through the curtain of steam to the font itself. It was a jet of water about as thick as his leg, so filled with sulfur and iron that it was as brown as a tree trunk—and so permeated with Force energy that it literally sent him stumbling back, his head spinning and his stomach churning. The fountain was not just tainted with dark side power, it was imbued with it—as if it were rising up from some deep-buried reservoir of dark side energy that had been building, preparing to blow for not just millennia, but since the beginning of time itself.```



Abyss wrote:```“There is no limit to the strength that can be drawn from the Font of Power,” Ryontarr replied. “You can drink as deeply as you wish.”
“Can I?”``
To put it simply, Luke is theoretically able and encouraged to draw on the font of power while beyond shadows by the mind-walkers. Given the circumstances, it is more than likely Krayt used it to his advantage. This would also explain the level of power he displays here, which never happened in any other instance.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

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on September 8th 2019, 11:42 am
Unsubstantiated conjecture. Krayt is a prime Luke-tier combatant. He destroys Plagueis.
Ziggy
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on September 8th 2019, 11:46 am
Krayt is a jobber-tier Luke combatant, possibly beyond that.  Don't know if that's enough to beat Plageuis.  I do, however, think if this was a saber contest, he might.
MasterCilghal
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on September 8th 2019, 12:36 pm
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Unsubstantiated conjecture. Krayt is a prime Luke-tier combatant. He destroys Plagueis.
Sure, the novel does not confirm this, but take these factors into account: 
1- it is not confirmed, but neither is it disproved, so I am allowed to present the argument. In order to debunk it you’ll have to come up with something more than just “it’s only speculation”. And regardless, the fact that I gave you proof makes it more than “unsubstantiated conjecture” 
2- As I already said, it is the only example of him displaying power in this level, so this can  be a more than reasonable explanation.
NotAA3
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Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis  - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis

on September 8th 2019, 2:26 pm
Plagueis still wins. Krayt puts up a good fight though.
ILS
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on September 9th 2019, 1:01 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:I frankly don't see the Apocalypse fight as implying any sort of parity between Luke and Krayt, and that's the only real case I can see for Krayt being above Plagueis.

I'm inclined to think that their Beyond Shadows selves are closer to their "true potential" - perhaps not literally, but in some sort of raw power sense - which would likely put the spirit Apoc Krayt on Krayt Reborn's level. While he is powerful enough to be relevant in the fight, if one looks at it carefully there isn't any indication that he's as powerful as Luke, or in the same tier as him. He's just able to help. I guess his Force drain affecting Abeloth is a pretty potent feat though.

I happen to think that Plagueis is around the threshold at where one would be relevant in that Beyond Shadows fight.
Being in Beyond Shadows means there are no physical limitations. Its just pure spirit/essence vs essence (which also calls into question the relevance of a nexus which, as we know, bolsters living force energy in the physical world...)

With that being case, consider that Krayt's spirit/will would have been tested constantly over a period of over a century with him having to fight off natural death and vong coral seeds eating his guts/bones alive and trying to consume his mind, culminating with him having a rapture-esque experience after overcoming death with him claiming his power has multiplied, he see's the Force/world in a new way now, and the authors claiming he is now more powerful than ever and understands his power better than ever etc.. you can also make the claim that the spiritual wounds which are talked about in Legacy and which Luke and Krayt suffered from Abeloth/other experiences, which we know can be healed, would all have been healed by War. Krayt healed his spirit from ab tiny vestige that he tucked into his corpse back to its full potency and more.

Krayt obviously wins this. Beating Cade in the manner he did, considering Cade's feats before he underwent exponential power growth and became a "master of the Force", is more in line with PT Sheev than Plagueis. His spirit having Force reserves in a similar ballpark to Luke's even if he is noticeably inferior were they to fight is again above Plagueis. In terms of combat, again, Krayt draining Abeloth with such potency that he probably would have killed most mortal Force users or at least severely crippled a high tier, based on how rapidly Abeloth deteriorated from this, is above Plagueis' applicable use of MM. I doubt either would use these powers in this fight either way but in terms of sheer potency its above anything Plagueis has.

Lots of important questions being dodged in this thread. Namely:

How weak can you really make Krayt with a straight face while also looking at how he completely manhandled Cade, someone who is several orders of magnitude above throwing a large transport shuttle into the distant horizon (something everyone would drop their pants for if Dooku or Kyp Durron did if we're being honest).

And how meaningless exactly are both powerscaling and beyond shadows fights if we are simply going to say "well yano Aayla Secura is probably at the threshold where she could fill in for Krayt so lets lets handwave this feat". And how close exactly do people think Plagueis is to Luke?

And finally how do you account for the fact that in every regard, Reborn Krayt is decidedly superior to his prior selves? People have taken any one aspect of a character (coming back from death, gaining new knowledge, growing in power, having a replenished physical body, having a better mental state etc) as being justifications for wanking their character of choice twofold or higher. Krayt has literally every single marker for power/mastery increases we have ever talked about roled into one in War.

So, certainly, I can see a very compelling argument for Plagueis winning if we avoid every important question about Krayt possible and ignore all of his best feats, and attempt to mitigate the most unavoidable of those as much as possible (while still maintaining ludicrous wanking power chains in other respects). But that kind of falls apart when a few simple facts are observed and their implications are drawn out.
The Ellimist
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on September 9th 2019, 2:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@ILS wrote:Being in Beyond Shadows means there are no physical limitations. Its just pure spirit/essence vs essence (which also calls into question the relevance of a nexus which, as we know, bolsters living force energy in the physical world...)

Why would physical objects, the Pool, and the Font be mirrored Beyond Shadows, with people being able to touch them (and touch their own bodies, albeit in a semi-tangible way), and yet the dark side energies of the planet aren't mirrored?

With that being case, consider that Krayt's spirit/will would have been tested constantly over a period of over a century with him having to fight off natural death and vong coral seeds eating his guts/bones alive and trying to consume his mind, culminating with him having a rapture-esque experience after overcoming death with him claiming his power has multiplied, he see's the Force/world in a new way now, and the authors claiming he is now more powerful than ever and understands his power better than ever etc.. you can also make the claim that the spiritual wounds which are talked about in Legacy and which Luke and Krayt suffered from Abeloth/other experiences, which we know can be healed, would all have been healed by War. Krayt healed his spirit from ab tiny vestige that he tucked into his corpse back to its full potency and more.

It really depends on how Beyond Shadows works; if they represent your full potency already, then Krayt Reborn would reach parity in sheer power at most. I don't think that's exactly true though, but I do think that his physical handicaps wouldn't apply there.

I agree that evidence suggests Krayt Reborn > Apoc Krayt in-the-flesh; I roughly take that power gap to slightly more than cancel out the possible nexus and the Beyond Shadows dynamics mitigating his injuries. Krayt Reborn is also more skilled and knowledgable. 

Krayt obviously wins this. Beating Cade in the manner he did, considering Cade's feats before he underwent exponential power growth and became a "master of the Force", is more in line with PT Sheev than Plagueis.

Is it? How does Cade compare to Plagueis?

In terms of combat, again, Krayt draining Abeloth with such potency that he probably would have killed most mortal Force users or at least severely crippled a high tier, based on how rapidly Abeloth deteriorated from this, is above Plagueis' applicable use of MM. I doubt either would use these powers in this fight either way but in terms of sheer potency its above anything Plagueis has.

It had an impact, but so did the other blows and the destruction of her avatars across the galaxy. I agree that it's a very impressive feat, but I'm not sure how to scale it because it's one of numerous components working together that brought Abeloth down. Even a far weaker combatant could probably do damage to an opponent if they were draining them for an extended period of time while said opponent was fighting someone else and getting weakened by multiple events across the galaxy.

If Darth Nihilus drained Vitiate while Vitiate was busy fighting someone else, would it have an effect? Probably.

How weak can you really make Krayt with a straight face while also looking at how he completely manhandled Cade, someone who is several orders of magnitude above throwing a large transport shuttle into the distant horizon (something everyone would drop their pants for if Dooku or Kyp Durron did if we're being honest).

That's definitely an impressive feat, but once you reach Plagueis's tier it's difficult to gauge upper bounds on environmental TK feats. OCW Anakin arguably has comparable showings. I'm not sure which tiers of characters can do which magnitude of TK feats; for example, if Palpatine TK'd the Lusankya, that would indeed be something beyond what I think Dooku could do.

I'm not saying that it's not a meaningful feat - I just don't know how to compare it to Plagueis.  

And how meaningless exactly are both powerscaling and beyond shadows fights if we are simply going to say "well yano Aayla Secura is probably at the threshold where she could fill in for Krayt so lets lets handwave this feat". And how close exactly do people think Plagueis is to Luke?

What we know about Krayt from the Beyond Shadows fight is that:

  • In his Beyond Shadows form, Abeloth cannot ragdoll or otherwise get rid of him with ease. I'm not sure what the ragdoll gaps are in that form; durability seems to be much higher given that the physical damage both suffered would've killed them in real life.
  • Krayt can damage Abeloth with strikes and hold onto her as she rolls with them.
  • Krayt's Force drain can noticeably harm Abeloth after an extended period of time.

Scaling Krayt directly to Abeloth from this would be kind of odd and wonky, but we can conclude that he's not fodder compared to Luke given that he does contribute meaningfully. But would it be inconsistent to scale him analogously to TPM Obi Wan : Qui Gon? What about RotS Obi Wan : Anakin? In these cases and others, the weaker of the duo contributed meaningfully to fights without being on the same tier.

And indeed, the question here is how close Plagueis is to Luke. I don't think he's "close" in the sense that he could really challenge Luke in a fight, but I don't think Plagueis is like an ant or anything. If Luke were fighting someone, a Plagueis-tier ally would definitely help. At the same time, I think the interactions between PT Sidious and Dooku suggest that Dooku would indeed be closer to an ant.

I'm being imprecise here, but so are you.

So, certainly, I can see a very compelling argument for Plagueis winning if we avoid every important question about Krayt possible and ignore all of his best feats, and attempt to mitigate the most unavoidable of those as much as possible (while still maintaining ludicrous wanking power chains in other respects). But that kind of falls apart when a few simple facts are observed and their implications are drawn out.

You're more than familiar with the case for Plagueis.  Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis  - Page 2 1220391476 He's an accolade putting him as the most powerful Sith Lord up to his time, which would include Vitiate. He along with a young Palpatine induced an unprecedented imbalance in the Cosmic Force through sheer exertion of power. His midichlorian manipulation threatened the Force enough to instigate the creation of the Chosen One. While near death he could vaporize a dozen armored assassins with uncharged telekinesis. He overcame his lack of natural talent in sith sorcery through sheer willpower. He could use midichlorian manipulation to tank Sidious's Force lightning, only dying because his breathing apparatus failed. If you want to give Krayt a massive scaling chain over Cade (if that's even legitimate), you can give Plagueis a massive scaling chain over Darth Zannah, who as a child shielded herself from a planetary firestorm, or from Darth Bane, who scales massively off of Kaan, who could telepathically dominate thousands of Sith at once and yet couldn't even mildly influence a Bane who had the equivalent amount of training of a Jedi youngling. 

My somewhat random placement is that Krayt Reborn somewhat more than matches Darth Plagueis in power, but midichlorian manipulation beats dark transfer, so it's a wash. It's based on the fact that when I go below Plagueis on the power scale, I get to combatants who are demonstrably insignificant compared to Sidious, while Plagueis was still significant compared to early-TPM Sidious, and if I go above on the power scale, I get to combatants like RotS Sidious who I'm not comfortable putting Krayt on the level off because of Sidious's position and general body of feats, which would require extraordinary evidence to put someone on the level of. 

That being said, I'm definitely willing to entertain the possibly that Krayt is higher.
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on September 9th 2019, 3:26 pm
Plagueis smashes.
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