Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
avatar
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 2:03 pm
Standard rules.
The Apprentice
The Apprentice
Level Two
Level Two

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 2:14 pm
I'd back Jinn.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 2:28 pm
Jinn imo
O-Siri
O-Siri

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 5:17 pm
Kas'im is probably more skilled or at least knows more forms and sequences. But Jinn based on his contention with Maul is likely more powerful. The blademaster probably has better stamina based on his sparring matches with Bane, where he tired at a slower rate than the trainy, who himself has quite exceptional endurance.

Don't know tbh.

Jake
Jake

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 5:42 pm
Kas’im gets sent flying across Korriban with the opening swing
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 6:16 pm
Up
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 14th 2019, 8:01 pm
Qui-Gon
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 15th 2019, 9:16 am
Qui-Gon in a decent fight.
The Witness
The Witness

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 16th 2019, 8:08 am
Jinn good fight
avatar
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 16th 2019, 11:34 am
Jinn wins low to mid diff. Not a close fight.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 17th 2019, 2:38 am
Kas'im has the edge tbh. Jinn is most likely more powerful and his longer experience which was helpful in anticipating Maul's moves will certainly help. But the unfamiliar double-bladed lightsaber, combined with his complete mastery of the seven forms(and his ability to implement multiple forms in a single sequence, as his factual inferior Sirak was capable of this), as well as his superior agility is too great an advantage on an open grassy field, as is the default setting.

Stamina is another issue. I'm not saying Jinn has bad stamina in general, but it is inferior to Bane and Kas'im's. The latter of which can keep fighting at near-peak capacity even when breathing hard:

Path of Destruction wrote:"Kas'im tossed him a towel. Bane was pleased to see that the Twi'lek was sweating, too-though nowhere near as profusely as he was."

Path of Destruction wrote:
Both fighters were breathing hard; the session had gone far longer than any before it. Their battles typically ended when the Twi'lek landed a scoring blow, disabling one of his student's limbs with the burning pelko venom. On this night, however, Kas'im had yet to land such a blow. (...)Bane hung his head and lowered his blade in an admission of defeat. The last pass he had held Kas'im off, but with each swing of his saber he had grown a microsecond slower. Fatigue was setting in. Even the Force couldn't keep his muscles fresh forever, and the seemingly endless duel had finally taken too great a toll. The Blademaster, on the other hand, had lost almost none of his speed and sharpness.

Note Bane had only slowed a "microsecond" after each swing and it was treated as a big deal. Jinn has great perseverance and can keep fighting strong in spite of the fatigue but it will and does slow him down. Even if Jinn gets the upper hand in a head-to-head fight Kas'im can just keep giving ground and rely on Soresu until the older Jedi Master wears down and then come back with a fierce counterattack.

avatar
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 17th 2019, 3:22 am
Kilius wrote:Kas'im has the edge tbh. Jinn is most likely more powerful and his longer experience which was helpful in anticipating Maul's moves will certainly help. But the unfamiliar double-bladed lightsaber, combined with his complete mastery of the seven forms(and his ability to implement multiple forms in a single sequence, as his factual inferior Sirak was capable of this), as well as his superior agility is too great an advantage on an open grassy field, as is the default setting.

Your opening comments don't match what follows. If Jinn is more powerful than Kas'im, then why is stamina brought up as an issue? In Jinn's case, his stamina only lasts about a minute against Maul because Maul is (a) 40 years younger and (b) way more powerful in the Force. If Jinn is facing someone of his own power level/below his power level, why would he have the same type of stamina issues? Even Sidious remarks that Jinn's stamina should have been surprising to Maul, despite being outmatched in age and raw power. Consider the following quotes:

The Core Rulebook wrote:Still, Qui Gon was a formidable lightsaber duelist - the best his master has seen in 400 years of teaching - and has since fought in a variety of conflicts all over the galaxy, sometimes against odds that would have overwhelmed a lesser swordsman.

TPM Novel wrote:Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taught in his more than four hundred years in the order. Qui-Gon had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance. He had survived battles that had tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.

There's a misconception about Jinn's stamina, since the only real fight of his people actually care to think about are the ones against Maul, someone who was way stronger and younger than him. As evidenced by these two quotes, Jinn was one of the best swordsmen in the Order, his skills and resolve had been tested in every conceivable way, and survived encounters where lesser swordsmen would have perished. Qui-Gon isn't just a good duelist, he's a good swordsman in any combat situation. Having notable stamina issues does not match these descriptions at all. Stamina won't be too much of an issue against someone as powerful/less powerful than himself.

Your second point is that Qui-Gon can predict Maul's Juyo sequences - then continue to explain how Kas'im's Juyo somehow doesn't apply? For one, Jinn doesn't seem to have an issue adapting to the saberstaff. He certainly wouldn't be unfamiliar with the weapon. The temple guards used it, the Jedi utilised it as a training weapon, and Jinn's clear superiority over Weaponmasters like Bondara indicates that Qui-Gon isn't going to be very much at a disadvantage going up against the weapon. Certainly, no mention of such a disadvantage due to the weapon is made in any of the sources on the duel on Naboo. The only mentions are the saberstaff's inherent advantage in allowing one to fight two opponents more easily. In fact, Qui-Gon is specifically noted as taking advantage of the weakness of Maul's saberstaff:

TPM Novel wrote:With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear.

Furthermore, how is Maul not also a master of every form? Study of Juyo is restricted by mastery of all previous forms, and high level mastery of multiple. There's also little credence in trying to argue Kas'im > Maul in technical skill. Maul in his early 20's is one of the most highly trained Sith in history, and he was trained by Sidious, who's more technically skilled than Kas'im was by what we can only assume is a noticeable margin.

I don't understand what you mean by agility. Qui-Gon may not be agile, but he's capable of it, obviously. He mastered Ataru and is one of the most technically skilled duelists in Jedi history. He also implements acrobatic maneuvers in his duel against Maul on Tatooine per the script.

I'm not going to address your other stuff, because it's literally bottom of the barrel "muh forms" and using a spar to prove Kasi'm would last longer in a duel (?) Qui-Gon is more powerful, probably more skilled with the lightsaber and is more than capable of handling a saberstaff/exploiting it, and can predict Maul's Juyo attacks before even Maul knew them. I don't see Qui-Gon losing here.
O-Siri
O-Siri

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 17th 2019, 6:04 am
@Meatpants wrote:If Jinn is more powerful than Kas'im, then why is stamina brought up as an issue? In Jinn's case, his stamina only lasts about a minute against Maul because Maul is (a) 40 years younger and (b) way more powerful in the Force. If Jinn is facing someone of his own power level/below his power level, why would he have the same type of stamina issues? Even Sidious remarks that Jinn's stamina should have been surprising to Maul, despite being outmatched in age and raw power. Consider the following quotes:

I never said Jinn had bad stamina in general; I agree that's a misconception. I'm saying stamina is a factor because Kas'im has superior stamina. The Twil'ek has the capacity to outlast him. It's a relevant factor. And no Jinn didn't just get tired because of Maul. Kenobi was fighting the same opponent and he didn't show any obvious signs of wearing down until his final stand. The difference in ages is the reason the novel cites. Not that Kenobi was the more "powerful" of the two.

Stamina won't be too much of an issue against someone as powerful/less powerful than himself.

It would if the battle came down to attrition. It's not a matter of Jinn having bad stamina it's a matter of Kas'im having superior stamina.
Your second point is that Qui-Gon can predict Maul's Juyo sequences - then continue to explain how Kas'im's Juyo somehow doesn't apply?

I acknowledged it would be a factor.

Fair points regarding the Double-Bladed lightsaber; I have a habit of excluding the retarded retcons from TCW in my analysis. I guess Kas'im doesn't logically have that advantage.

Furthermore, how is Maul not also a master of every form? Study of Juyo is restricted by mastery of all previous forms, and high level mastery of multiple. There's also little credence in trying to argue Kas'im > Maul in technical skill.

Mastering a form and perfecting it are two distinct things. Kas'im didn't just master all the forms he perfected every move and sequence. Furthermore, I never argued or implied Kas'im > Maul in technical skill. You're strawmaning me. Kas'im > Jinn in technical skill based on the available evidence is all I'm saying.


I don't understand what you mean by agility. Qui-Gon may not be agile, but he's capable of it, obviously. He mastered Ataru and is one of the most technically skilled duelists in Jedi history. He also implements acrobatic maneuvers in his duel against Maul on Tatooine per the script.

Not in the movie which overrides the script when details contradict. And all novel adaptations of the fight following the movie stuck with that version of events. Jinn as of TPM isn't a gymnast. Kas'im's agility is an edge in this environment.

I'm not going to address your other stuff, because it's literally bottom of the barrel "muh forms"

Muh forms is a tangible advantage, your hand waving aside, it gives the practitioner more options in a fight. You didn't address Kas'ims perfect mastery of Soresu or how the environment would enable him to give ground until Jinn broke off or wore himself out; this is where the whole stamina thing comes into play even if Jinn proves to be superior in a head-to-head fight. Even if Jinn can replicate what Bane pulled off he doesn't possess Bane's stamina or an environment to pin Kas'im into a corner on a grassy field. Jinn would burn out before Kas'im does using Soresu.

and using a spar to prove Kasi'm would last longer in a duel

The sparing match proves that Kas'im can outlast someone less than half Jinn's age and one who was even before he began his training accustomed to long grueling shifts in the cortosis mines; the closest thing to hard labor in the Republic outside a prison colony. Bane's own stamina isn't lagging.

You've convinced me that Kas'im doesn't have the edge in weaponry but I still say he has the edge in skill, probably speed, options, agility, and stamina. Jinn has the edge in intuition, experience, strength, and power. I still think Kas'im has the advantage in this environment.



avatar
Meatpants
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 17th 2019, 7:16 am
Kilius wrote:I never said Jinn had bad stamina in general; I agree that's a misconception. I'm saying stamina is a factor because Kas'im has superior stamina. The Twil'ek has the capacity to outlast him. It's a relevant factor. And no Jinn didn't just get tired because of Maul. Kenobi was fighting the same opponent and he didn't show any obvious signs of wearing down until his final stand. The difference in ages is the reason the novel cites. Not that Kenobi was the more "powerful" of the two.

Again, how does Kas'im have superior stamina? You've yet to explain that.

Yes, Qui-Gon did get tired against Maul. He's weaker in the Force, and thus had to put more into his augmentation to keep up, hence why he fizzles out so quickly.

Kilius wrote:Fair points regarding the Double-Bladed lightsaber; I have a habit of excluding the retarded retcons from TCW in my analysis. I guess Kas'im doesn't logically have that advantage.

Except even the TPM Novel has Qui-Gon abusing the weakness of the saberstaff.

Kilius wrote:Mastering a form and perfecting it are two distinct things. Kas'im didn't just master all the forms he perfected every move and sequence. Furthermore, I never argued or implied Kas'im > Maul in technical skill. You're strawmaning me. Kas'im > Jinn in technical skill based on the available evidence is all I'm saying.

No, I'm making a comparison. You're saying that Kas'im's "perfect mastery" of lightsaber combat is an advantage over Jinn, but the fact that Jinn can predict Maul's sequences means he can also predict Kas'im's as well (since Maul is a better duelist). Not a strawman.

Kilius wrote:Not in the movie which overrides the script when details contradict. And all novel adaptations of the fight following the movie stuck with that version of events. Jinn as of TPM isn't a gymnast. Kas'im's agility is an edge in this environment.

No, at least half the fight is off-screen, and the books don't support or contradict Jinn jumping about, ergo there's no contradiction with the script.

Kilius wrote:Muh forms is a tangible advantage, your hand waving aside, it gives the practitioner more options in a fight. You didn't address Kas'ims perfect mastery of Soresu or how the environment would enable him to give ground until Jinn broke off or wore himself out; this is where the whole stamina thing comes into play even if Jinn proves to be superior in a head-to-head fight. Even if Jinn can replicate what Bane pulled off he doesn't possess Bane's stamina or an environment to pin Kas'im into a corner on a grassy field. Jinn would burn out before Kas'im does using Soresu.

Who cares about what "perfect mastery" means? Like the Youtubers, you're imagining Soresu as an impenetrable defense. Qui-Gon is more powerful than Kas'im; they're not equalised.

Kilius wrote:The sparing match proves that Kas'im can outlast someone less than half Jinn's age and one who was even before he began his training accustomed to long grueling shifts in the cortosis mines; the closest thing to hard labor in the Republic outside a prison colony. Bane's own stamina isn't lagging.

It's a spar, not a real life combat scenario. If Koon and TPM Kenobi spar for three hours, and both are sweating and tired, that doesn't indicate parity or even that they have comparable stamina. It just means they both have been fighting for a very long time.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on July 20th 2019, 8:06 pm
Jinn.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on December 3rd 2019, 9:57 am
Jinn smacks
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on December 3rd 2019, 12:26 pm
Qui GOn stomps
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level One
Level One

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on December 3rd 2019, 12:47 pm
Qui-Gon Gym heavy lifts.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on December 3rd 2019, 1:25 pm
Jinn's opening swing breaks all the bones in his arms. Jinn's follow up kills him.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

on December 3rd 2019, 1:49 pm
jinn, i think. though fight tho. not nearly has tough as maul, but u know, a good fight
Sponsored content

Kas’im vs Qui-Gon  Empty Re: Kas’im vs Qui-Gon

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum