Darth Tyranus VS. Darth Plagueis (Force Only)

Maul and Kenobi>Grievous even as pure swordsmen.

[/quote]
His performance of briefly skirmishing with Mace? Not seeing how that would even be beyond TPM Maul or Ventress' abilities. He "overloaded" Obi-Wan's defences, except he didn't, because the prose immediately after talks about how Obi-Wan had the Force on his side which allowed him to tool Grievous.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. -slice-

The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.

Grievous paused, eyes pulsing wide, then drawing narrow. He lifted his maimed hand and stared at the white-hot stumps that held now only half a useless lightsaber.

Obi-Wan smiled at him.

Grievous lunged.

Obi-Wan parried.

Pieces of lightsabers bounced on the durasteel deck.

Grievous looked down at the blade-sliced hunks of metal that were all he had left in his hands, then up at Obi-Wan's shining sky-colored blade, then down at his hands again, and then he seemed to suddenly remember that he had an urgent appointment somewhere else.

Anywhere else.

--Revenge of the Sith novel


Which is a good feat, the problem is, Fact Files and Other sources (fact files which you recently used in your CAV indicating you view it as a credible source) confirm that Grievous was indeed injured during the Kenobi showing. In fact if we just take it as what it was, mace brought "Shards of Metal into his organs" as of ROTS, so the mere fact that he overloaded a pre (oneness obi wan) which is the best way to describe it since Obi-wan enters a trance like state against grievous. The same state that Maul would be fighting him as his oneness state was relatively new for him to perform at the time of ROTS IIRC, and there is no indication he could perform it before. So Grievous who is able to overload standard Obi-wan's defenses (a Greater obi-wan who you will later admit in your post is having "hard fought" battles with maul) which can give us a rough estimate of (Injured) Grevious > standard Obi wan ~ Darth Maul. I think that's relatively fair to argue.

"Also, on the turtle tanker Maul was weaker than his TPM self, and even with that in mind, he still unbalanced Obi-Wan with Dun Moch, kicked his ass, and made him admit to being "outmatched", so I fail to see how your comparison checks out. RotS Kenobi is stronger than TCW Kenobi, yes, but he also dealt Grievous a thorough asswhooping, whereas Maul and Kenobi's battles were always hard fought in TCW. Not to mention Maul at no point had any intention of killing Obi-Wan because he wanted to drag out his revenge.

Well again going back to the almighty fact files, they provide reasoning for most of Grevious' shortcomings in TCW against Kenobi. In fact, grevious is noted several times to only be = or losing to kenobi because of environmental factors. Plus even at the beginning of the war GG who has basic enhancements and is yet to be in his physical prime ( He evolves his tech over TCW) is already matching and exceeding Obi-wan so the point of the TCW comparisons are moot, if that was an argument you try to make.

As a pure duelist, I don't necessarily see why Grievous is better than Maul, but maybe you can convince me.

In terms of skill? Yes, simply put as Grevious himself has stated and LOE elaborated he can dissect sequences of the most complex fighting forms in seconds. He has a virtual log implanted into his brain on every single motion or movement of combat executed to perfect precision etc, where Maul "has not made a mistake in years" Grievous is built with "precision that could not be emulated" so yes he is better technically speaking. In terms of an actual engagement, you yourself have stated again that Maul is a sith warrior who likes to match his opponents beat for beat. With Grevious' ability to analyze break down and subsequently counter any attack that Maul has, compiled with his speed advantage evident in the scaling chain I made earlier, it would be apparent that Maul is simply outclassed.

In-sidiousvader wrote:
Which is a good feat, the problem is, Fact Files and Other sources (fact files which you recently used in your CAV indicating you view it as a credible source) confirm that Grievous was indeed injured during the Kenobi showing. In fact if we just take it as what it was, mace brought "Shards of Metal into his organs" as of ROTS, so the mere fact that he overloaded a pre (oneness obi wan) which is the best way to describe it since Obi-wan enters a trance like state against grievous. The same state that Maul would be fighting him as his oneness state was relatively new for him to perform at the time of ROTS IIRC, and there is no indication he could perform it before. So Grievous who is able to overload standard Obi-wan's defenses (a Greater obi-wan who you will later admit in your post is having "hard fought" battles with maul) which can give us a rough estimate of (Injured) Grevious > standard Obi wan ~ Darth Maul. I think that's relatively fair to argue.

1. I need to see the evidence that Grievous' injuries from Mace actually hindered him as a combatant. To my knowledge it gave him a cough but I'm not aware of anything else.
2. You're incorrect that Obi-Wan had not yet sunk into what I'll dub his "trance" (it's not Oneness). Obi-Wan had sunk into this state before he even started killing the Magnaguards and hurtling through blaster fire. It's a state that Obi-Wan appears to be able to call upon on command as it is apart of his core fighting style and attitude to combat - one that is quite passive, letting himself be guided by the Force. Stover's more fantastical prose goes as far as to suggest that Obi-Wan isn't even the one fighting, but rather the Force itself is fighting through him (easy to see how you confused this with Oneness).

Instantly the box of bodyguards around Obi-Wan filled with crackling electrostaffs whipping faster than the human eye could see-which was less troublesome than it might have been, for that box was already empty of Jedi.

The Force had let him collapse as though he'd suddenly fainted, then it brought his lightsaber from his belt to his hand and ignited it while he turned his fall into a roll; that roll carried his lightsaber through a crisp arc that severed the leg of one of the bodyguards, and as the Force brought Obi-Wan back to his feet, the Force also nudged the crippled bodyguard to topple sideways into the path of the blade and sent it clanging to the floor in two smoking, sparking pieces. One down.

The remaining three pressed the attack, but more cautiously; their weapons were longer than his, and they struck from beyond the reach of his blade. He gave way before them, his defensive velocities barely keeping their crackling discharge blades at bay.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away.

He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come . . . until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now.

His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of ship-sized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike.

Two, three, and four.

Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well.

Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once.

Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there . . .

--Revenge of the Sith

This was, essentially, Obi-Wan fulfilling Qui-Gon's dictate to him - that he should allow his actions to be guided by the Will of the Force. Except... it wasn't in Revenge of the Sith where Obi-Wan first learned how to do this... he was a master of this when he fought Maul in Shadow Conspiracy.

"Obi-Wan had only been a Padawan when he fought Maul on Naboo, more than a decade ago. He'd still been learning to sense the Will of the Force, and to keep from letting his emotions distract and overwhelm him. Now Obi-Wan was an experienced duelist, and had long ago found the calm center Qui-Gon had tried to teach him to search for."

-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

So no, your argument is not what I'd call fair.

In-sidiousvader wrote:
Well again going back to the almighty fact files, they provide reasoning for most of Grevious' shortcomings in TCW against Kenobi. In fact, grevious is noted several times to only be = or losing to kenobi because of environmental factors. Plus even at the beginning of the war GG who has basic enhancements and is yet to be in his physical prime ( He evolves his tech over TCW) is already matching and exceeding Obi-wan so the point of the TCW comparisons are moot, if that was an argument you try to make.

I'm not making an argument. I'm refuting your point that Obi-Wan "bullied" Maul when the evidence paints a different and more clear picture. If you want to strike a comparison between Maul and Grievous using TCW be my guest.

In-sidiousvader wrote:
In terms of skill? Yes, simply put as Grevious himself has stated and LOE elaborated he can dissect sequences of the most complex fighting forms in seconds. He has a virtual log implanted into his brain on every single motion or movement of combat executed to perfect precision etc, where Maul "has not made a mistake in years" Grievous is built with "precision that could not be emulated" so yes he is better technically speaking. In terms of an actual engagement, you yourself have stated again that Maul is a sith warrior who likes to match his opponents beat for beat. With Grevious' ability to analyze break down and subsequently counter any attack that Maul has, compiled with his speed advantage evident in the scaling chain I made earlier, it would be apparent that Maul is simply outclassed.

1. "In terms of skill" - I'm talking about a fight that doesn't involve TK or the like. Just physical combat. Not talking about "technical skill" in a vacuum where we don't factor in Force augmentation etc, I'm talking about applicable fighting ability. On that point...

2. Yes, Grievous' computers are utterly insane. His breadth of lightsaber knowledge, the speed at which he processes new information, how quickly he can access and implement that new information, etc, is astounding. As we saw, he encountered Windu's Vaapad for the first time, and within seconds, was producing a convincing imitation of it... something that should take someone years of intense training. That and he has extreme speed, strength and dexterity. But you seem to be forgetting that he needs these things in the first place to even be competitive against the likes of Obi-Wan, Maul and Mace. He's a non-Force user. He isn't inexplicably guided by an omnipresent energy field that grants him all manners of superhuman senses, perceptions, premonitions and physical abilities. Force Users fight without having to think, whereas Grievous thinks extremely quickly.

3. On that point... one quirk of Grievous' computer (and his fellow Magnaguards more particularly) is that they are somewhat enslaved to form, which is also detailed in Labyrinth of Evil. Quote:

Grievous was fast, and so were his IG 100-series sparring partners. They had the advantage of size and brute strength. They executed moves almost faster than the human eye could follow. Their thrusts and lunges demonstrated a singular lack of hesitancy. Once committed to a maneuver, they never faltered. They never stopped to recalculate their actions. Their weapons went exactly where they meant them to go. And they always aimed for points beyond their opponents in order to slice clear through.

Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - - in the Jedi arts - - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen. This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order.

--Labyrinth of Evil

In short, the Force allows the likes of Maul and Obi-Wan to adapt to the needs of the situation in a way Grievous simply can't, and that's why he lost to Obi-Wan. Grievous is to some extent enslaved to form... it is his boon that he is one of if not the most technically well equipped duelists, with the most variety of lightsaber styles and techniques, the most ease of access to them, and the most dexterity with which to imitate them due to his enhanced physiology... but none of that makes up for being a muggle.

What has Dooku done that compares to changing the weather on a ds nexus, and unbalancing the force with great strain + the help of an equally strong force wielder with prep?

Plagueis losing his jaw to assassins impresses me more than something like throwing around massive Cruisers with a quarter of your power. Pretty lopsided fight imo.

Jake wrote:What has Dooku done that compares to changing the weather on a ds nexus, and unbalancing the force with great strain + the help of an equally strong force wielder with prep?

Losing to pirates?

ɢᴏᴀᴛ wrote:

Jake wrote:What has Dooku done that compares to changing the weather on a ds nexus, and unbalancing the force with great strain + the help of an equally strong force wielder with prep?

Losing to pirates?

Those pirates beat Plagueis’ snowmen.

Jake wrote:

ɢᴏᴀᴛ wrote:

Jake wrote:What has Dooku done that compares to changing the weather on a ds nexus, and unbalancing the force with great strain + the help of an equally strong force wielder with prep?

Losing to pirates?

Those pirates beat Plagueis’ snowmen.

Well played

ILS wrote:

LOTL wrote:

ILS wrote:Plagueis definitely wins, but I imagine Dooku will put up a decent fight. The big thing for me is that TPM Maul was very much in awe of TPM Sidious (and by extension Darth Plagueis') power, whereas the same cannot be said for how he stacks up to Dooku.

Well, you can view that this way-Maul returned stronger than he ever was in TCW. We know that Savage must have felt this power but he is in complete awe of it only a few months later come Revival meaning Maul had to have increased considerably.

True he comes up rather highly short of the Sidious mark, but then again, Sidious too has grown in power by a rather vast margin( he was equal to Plagueis even before his burst of power scenario) thus this shouldn't be taken too stringently against the likes of Dooku.

Basically ROTS Sidious>>EoTPM Sidious>>TPM Sidious=Plagueis

But also, Dooku>TCW Maul>>>Revived Maul>TPM Maul

Is the gap so vast that another considerable gap is not going to even come close? I don't think so.

Honestly, I don't see what any of that has to do with my point. The gap between Dooku and TPM Maul isn't such that Maul would be in awe of him (even Ventress, Grievous, Savage etc aren't), it's a perfectly legit fight that's worth discussing. Not so much the case with Maul vs Sheev or Plagueis.

That's my point. Savage has to be in awe of Maul based on his comments in Revival.

Note that Savage has felt the power of the returned Maul( who based on numerous statements is more powerful than TPM Maul), but come a few months later, he evidently is in awe by Maul's power

An entity stronger than TPM Maul isn't enough to make Savage go "wow", the same entity a few months later however is enough to do exactly that.

Dooku is even more powerful than that. You are ascribing to the notion that TPM and TCW Maul are comparable, I am saying they are not.

LOTL wrote:

ILS wrote:

LOTL wrote:

ILS wrote:Plagueis definitely wins, but I imagine Dooku will put up a decent fight. The big thing for me is that TPM Maul was very much in awe of TPM Sidious (and by extension Darth Plagueis') power, whereas the same cannot be said for how he stacks up to Dooku.

Well, you can view that this way-Maul returned stronger than he ever was in TCW. We know that Savage must have felt this power but he is in complete awe of it only a few months later come Revival meaning Maul had to have increased considerably.

True he comes up rather highly short of the Sidious mark, but then again, Sidious too has grown in power by a rather vast margin( he was equal to Plagueis even before his burst of power scenario) thus this shouldn't be taken too stringently against the likes of Dooku.

Basically ROTS Sidious>>EoTPM Sidious>>TPM Sidious=Plagueis

But also, Dooku>TCW Maul>>>Revived Maul>TPM Maul

Is the gap so vast that another considerable gap is not going to even come close? I don't think so.

Honestly, I don't see what any of that has to do with my point. The gap between Dooku and TPM Maul isn't such that Maul would be in awe of him (even Ventress, Grievous, Savage etc aren't), it's a perfectly legit fight that's worth discussing. Not so much the case with Maul vs Sheev or Plagueis.

That's my point. Savage has to be in awe of Maul based on his comments in Revival.

Note that Savage has felt the power of the returned Maul( who based on numerous statements is more powerful than TPM Maul), but come a few months later, he evidently is in awe by Maul's power

An entity stronger than TPM Maul isn't enough to make Savage go "wow", the same entity a few months later however is enough to do exactly that.

Dooku is even more powerful than that. You are ascribing to the notion that TPM and TCW Maul are comparable, I am saying they are not.

No he doesn't. Not in the same way Maul is awed by Sheev. TPM Maul is barely capable of perceiving/tracking Sidious' casual lightsaber movements. Sidious strikes fear into the very core of his being, can read his thoughts, causally conceal himself from Maul in the Force, and so on. None of which can be ascribed to Dooku or Maul's later self.

True but such things are subjective enough. '

Sidious strikes fear into the very core of his being

Subjective, could be due to psychological or other reasons since Maul's impression has been built since he was a toddler

can read his thoughts

Is an indication of superiority. However, I don't see why it is an indication of vast superiority

causally conceal himself from Maul in the Force

Was this done in the middle of battle?

Obviously, I can argue against the notion of Maul not being able to track the motion by Sidious by citing Obi Wan and Kit, Anakin and Mace etc. however, it seems to me that the example's intent is meant to convey that there is legitimately a vast speed difference between the two( else you wouldn't cite it) so yeah, no arguments here

However, I hesitate to say that there is any huge difference between Plagueis and Dooku based on Dooku's performance against Yoda either

Two Titans battling it out. I know a lot of people seem to think LOTL is a moron, but I disagree. All his points have validity even if I don't agree with every one of them. Not only this, if you look at the upper echelon the Creme de le creme of debaters, you'll find they agree or do not challenge notions put forth by LOTL. Specifically Ant, ILS, and Azronger all seem to respect him, and I don't think he is nearly as bias as he is made out to be. Continue doing what you're doing man, bringing back intelligent discussion for Star wars Debating is a difficult task, but you make it seem more possible every day

In-sidiousvader wrote: Specifically Ant

No, lmfao.

LOTL wrote:

In-sidiousvader wrote: Specifically Ant

No, lmfao.

Oh? my mistake. I knew Jake and Hp hated you with a passion since you stand in the way of their Dooku wank, but you and Ant had a relatively competent, polite, respectful, and seemingly friendly discussion about Ben on CV during Az's CaV, so I assumed that you two thought highly of one another. My mistake.

LOTL wrote:True but such things are subjective enough. '

Sidious strikes fear into the very core of his being

Subjective, could be due to psychological or other reasons since Maul's impression has been built since he was a toddler

can read his thoughts

Is an indication of superiority. However, I don't see why it is an indication of vast superiority

causally conceal himself from Maul in the Force

Was this done in the middle of battle?

Obviously, I can argue against the notion of Maul not being able to track the motion by Sidious by citing Obi Wan and Kit, Anakin and Mace etc. however, it seems to me that the example's intent is meant to convey that there is legitimately a vast speed difference between the two( else you wouldn't cite it) so yeah, no arguments here

However, I hesitate to say that there is any huge difference between Plagueis and Dooku based on Dooku's performance against Yoda either

Elaborate on what you mean by "psychological reasons". You make the point that Maul has known Sheev since infancy: despite spending that length of time together, Maul views Sheev as if he's a sentient, unknowable shadow because of how deeply he is shrouded in the Force. He's sparred against him enough times to have "innumerable scars" from their battles, so he's not poorly informed on his master's abilities. Meanwhile Sheev can read Maul's thoughts and intentions like an open book. He knows "everything" about Maul including his thoughts and feelings via the Force even when Maul tries to conceal them. He can conceal himself in the Force from Maul at will per Maul's own admission and has done so for as long as he has known him.

"There is little to tell. He was a Shadow, cloaked in the Dark Side so thickly he was unknowable. He was the most powerful being I have ever encountered... It was his training that kept me alive."

--Darth Maul, Sith Hunters

Sidious cast his hooded gaze across the room to a deeply shadowed area in which Darth Maul sat silent as a statue, his tattooed face lowered, so that all Sidious could see was the crown of vestigial horns that sprouted from his hairless skull.

"Your thoughts betray you, my young apprentice," he remarked. "You are puzzled by my steadfast interest in the Neimoidians."

Darth Maul lifted his face, and what scant light there was seemed to recoil. Where his Master represented all that was concealed and mysterious in the Sith, Maul was the personification of all that was to be feared.

"From you, Master, I cannot hide what I feel. The Neimoidians are greedy and weak-willed. I find them unworthy."

--Darth Maul: Saboteur

It is an easy job to slice off its head. The droid crashes to the floor, now a useless heap of smoking metal. I kick it out of my way with a smile, my lightsaber held loosely in my fingers. One day I will see a Jedi at my feet just like that.

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master.

I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to.

The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think, " Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master. " What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Also, let's make something clear: I didn't ever use the term "vast" and I don't know precisely what you mean when you use the term vast. I said that the body of evidence presented to us shows that TPM Maul vs his master or Plagueis is not a fair fight. Maul knows himself that such an encounter would be tantamount to suicide, and he has enough data (sparring Sidious directly) to inform that viewpoint. He does not view the likes of Dooku in the same manner (nor, to my knowledge, do Ventress, Grievous, Savage or even any of the Count's dark acolytes, let alone Maul, but feel free to make the argument). Therefore, Plagueis is likely to be more powerful than Dooku. To what extent, you can decide for yourself. I never gave an extent. I simply pointed out facts.

As for comparing Dooku to Plagueis based on his fight with Yoda, you're free to make that argument.

In-sidiousvader wrote:

LOTL wrote:

In-sidiousvader wrote: Specifically Ant

No, lmfao.

Oh? my mistake. I knew Jake and Hp hated you with a passion since you stand in the way of their Dooku wank, but you and Ant had a relatively competent, polite, respectful, and seemingly friendly discussion about Ben on CV during Az's CaV, so I assumed that you two thought highly of one another. My mistake.

Lmao I don't "hate" LOTL. Hate is a very strong word which I don't think I would apply to anyone on this forum. Moreover, I actually like LOTL I just find some of his arguments a bit... ridiculous? Granted though I don't think I can talk given some of the dumb sh** I've said.

Dooku lost to fifteen pirates. Plagueis was crippled by a bunch of Maladian assassins who were portrayed as rather incompetent in the book.
Both lose tbh

You know how Dooku would never beat Sidious in either a lightsaber duel or Force battle? And the reason for one is identical to the reason for the other?

Yeah, that same reason applies to Plagueis. He wins every single round.

Mithrandi wrote:
Yeah, that same reason applies to Plagueis.

No it doesn't. Sidious is considerably better than Plagueis.

Plagueis, and it isn't close at all

LOTL wrote:

Mithrandi wrote:
Yeah, that same reason applies to Plagueis.

No it doesn't. Sidious is considerably better than Plagueis.

And Plagueis is considerably better than Dooku

I’m open to both sides, but at the moment I’m gunning for Plagueis. Plagueis appears to have a stronger connection to the Force than Dooku, especially since he not only scales from being the second last Banite, but also because he artificially increased his own midi-chlorian count on various occasions. Plagueis also had access to Sith knowledge Dooku never had (AKAIK). His lab was a strong dark side nexus that Sheev expected to find on a Sith world, and his lightsaber training wouldn’t have been too far off Dooku’s own.

Dooku still slaps.

Plagueis slaps.

Plagueis solidly

SithSauce wrote:

LOTL wrote:

Mithrandi wrote:
Yeah, that same reason applies to Plagueis.

No it doesn't. Sidious is considerably better than Plagueis.

And Plagueis is considerably better than Dooku

Never disputed that. Dooku should give him a decent fight though.