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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on April 22nd 2019, 7:24 am
@DeadlyJedi

Caedus held his own against GM Luke for a good amount of time.

If by a good amount of time you mean 7 blows then yeah. Caedus had to utilise the environment and take advantage of pre-existing injuries to survive. If he hadn't done so he would have died at the onset of the fight.

Completely stomped Kyle Katarn with the aid of other jedi.

Kyle and the other Jedi weren't stomped, Caedus only beat them after a relatively decent engagement. Furthermore the "other Jedi" were fodder who even as a collective were beneath Katarn.

Driving Jaina Solo back with only arm.

Which is highly impressive sure but lessened by the fact that Jaina is pretty much fodder.

Defeated Mara Jade.

Who struggles to collapse a poorly constructed tunnel. Hardly impressive.

He is Confirmed to have surpassed Vader in power. It also helps that he comes from a very powerful lineage.

He's confirmed to have surpassed the unimpressive, overrated cyborg by a subjective source. Furthermore his lineage has little impact on direct comparisons of feats.

I think I am more impressed with him.

Who would have guessed?

I see Caedus overwhelming Dooku with his strength in the same way Anakin did.

Caedus isn't manhandling Dooku in the same way Anakin did.

Dooku absolutely puts up one hell of a fight though.

Finally, the first intelligent and correct thing you've said in this post.
Sam
Sam

Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on April 22nd 2019, 8:17 am
@DC77 Why is Jaina is fodder??
"I name you the Sword of the Jedi. You are like tempered steel, purposeful and razor-keen. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends. Yours is a restless life, and never shall you know peace, though you shall be blessed for the peace that you bring to others. Take comfort in the fact that, though you stand tall and alone, others take shelter in the shadow that you cast."-Luke
Jaina has also fought evenly against Kyp Durron and killed Yuzhan Vong warriors with lightning.
Do u just call anyone fodder?
You can claim Vader is overrated all you want (which he isn't), Lucas has compared his power to Maul/Dooku. So Caedus being more powerful than him is impressive. And coming from a powerful lineage does play a factor. Luke within 3 years was capable of contending/beating Vader. Vader, despite having his powers curbed after Mustafar, is still capable of pulling extremely good force feats, like collapsing a cathedral pre prime. Not to mention there is Sidious deeming him the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Anyway you once had a high opinion of Vader, wtf changed? Trolling?
Caedus may not have stomped Katarn and his team, he still held a noticeable advantage against them and ended up winning while extremely hindered. Still a good feat regardless.

I can list a number of things you have said in the past that weren't exactly intelligent i.e. "Dooku ragdolling Vader", " Dooku soloing Bane and Zannah". "Malgus one shotting Maul". You have no business mocking me.
Not sure why we are even having this debate when you think Caedus wins this anyway?
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on April 22nd 2019, 9:28 am
@DeadlyJedi I'll address the rest of this s**t later but for now...

I can list a number of things you have said in the past that weren't exactly intelligent i.e. "Dooku ragdolling Vader", " Dooku soloing Bane and Zannah". "Malgus one shotting Maul". You have no business mocking me.

Dooku ragdolling Vader is not a position I genuinely hold so much as me lowballing our overrated cyborg friend for the lol's. As far as Dooku soloing Bane and Zannah is concerned he's stalemated a superior duo in Kenobi and Skywalker prior to DS Anakin coming into play, why should this be any different? And lol at me ever saying Malgus one shots Maul, if I did it was likely trolling given I'm not even convinced Malgus beats Maul, let alone one shots.

Not sure why we are even having this debate when you think Caedus wins this anyway?

Because a great deal of your post was false...
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on April 22nd 2019, 9:46 am
I'll make a case for Caedus later today assuming formatting it doesn't make me give up.
dark-sith123
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on April 23rd 2019, 4:27 pm
Caedus should win in a great engagement. However, Dooku emerging victorious is far from inconceivable.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 7:16 pm
@Azronger @ILS @ArkhamAsylum3 Was bored so I figured I may as well get back to this. Not a rebuttal as such but merely a general summary of the advantages I believe Caedus holds in this fight and why.

Right off the bat there's a clear cut comparison between the two. Dooku has been labelled as like Vader in power, while Jacen surpasses his Grandfather in that field.

Now it seems that the last, best hope lies in mobilizing the scattered Jedi for one decisive search-and-destroy mission. The objective: eliminate Darth Caedus. It’s a plan that will be as difficult and dangerous to execute as it is daring. For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader.

-Invincible

“And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.”

-George Lucas, The Cult Of Darth Vader

Note that Dooku is also compared to Maul in power. The same Maul that performed worse against Sidious than Jacen did against Luke, a superior opponent. While Maul is pretty much instantly overpowered and can't do anything to launch a counter against Sidious due to the latter's speed Jacen bypasses Luke's guard with a physical strike despite being caught in an unfavourable position at the onset of the due l(He was ambushed and barely had the chance to draw his saber).

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

-Shadow Conspiracy

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

-Inferno

So we already have Dooku being compared to two force wielders who are by all indication beneath Jacen. Now let's look at what Jacen can actually do.

He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.

Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it. not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.

He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.



In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even.



Ten seconds.

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.

-Fury

When Kyle Katarn and three other Jedi assault Jacen he's capable of negating Kyle's attacks with only his instinctive guard while simultaneously dismissing the other Jedi via TK and physical strikes. After about ten seconds of fighting Jacen nearly severs the blade-masters leg, with the only thing saving his adversary from a quick death being the intervention of one of his fellow Jedi. Said Jedi was only capable of saving Kyle due to Jacen's restraint, he had no issue killing Katarn who was a very real threat however he needed the other Jedi alive to learn the location of the Jedi base, hence his use of non lethal attacks such as TK and physical strikes and him stalling for the arrival of GAG troops. It's clear if Jacen had been interested in killing the entire team the fight would have been a slaughter.

Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three.

He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute.

Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armoured shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.

...

Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question."

The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready.

-Fury

All of this was during a timeframe when Jacen was still injured from his duel with Luke.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

-Fury

The injuries in question were so bad that he was not only drained of energy after about a minute of fighting to the point where he was getting tagged with blaster fire and fodder Jedi he'd dismissed with TK earlier were giving him issues but he was also dropped to his knees by a graze to his leg from a blaster bolt despite having kept fighting without any repercussions a book earlier when hit by a far more damaging injury (A kidney stab from a lightsaber).

Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

-Fury

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimetres, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside.

-Inferno

Now, what exactly can Kyle do, you may ask? To begin we have Desann who could already do shit like this . Desann then gets an amp from a nexus so powerful it made a previously Vader tier force user powerful enough to destroy a star. Given base Desann has already displayed moderate TK how powerful do you think he's going to be with the nexus amp stacked on top of that? Despite this Kyle still beats him after having fought through an army just prior. Given this I'd be inclined to say Kyle+The Strike Team could give Dooku a decent fight, yet are only capable of doing so against Jacen with a slew of other circumstances in their favour.

Now, why don't we examine force feats. Jacen's capable of deflecting cannon fire from an Assault Cruiser without exerting himself.

Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before.

-Swarm War

Do you want to know what a single blast of this fire can do? It can drive a lightsaber wielder onto their knees when they take the full force on their blade.

Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees.

-Swarm War

Let's look at the quantity shall we? 20 bolts a square meter.

There was no use trying to run or take cover. Drop ship weapons systems were designed to spread a carpet of death around their landing zones. Often, they laid fire as thick as twenty bolts a square meter.

-Swarm War

In short Jacen's force defences are capable of taking something in excess without budging that sent a lightsaber wielder onto their knees with a single blast.

It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true. And, as history repeated itself because it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them except Luke. And he was growing closer to Luke's strength by the day.

-Bloodlines

All of this occurs prior to extensive daily power growth on Jacen's part. Now, why don't we take a look at Kyp Durron. As shown in the above quote Jacen believes himself to be more powerful than Durron which is supported by Luke's belief that he's the only one capable of stopping Jacen.

"Exactly." Luke's gaze slid away from the table. "Every future that begins with me going after Caedus ends in darkness. I know I'm the only one who can be sure of stopping him, but no matter how I envision it, it always leads to darkness."

-Invincible

While I could enter into a long debate about performances that were dictated more by Kyp's mental state and raw power than anything I'll just post the obvious for now. Kyp's capable of shifting the Jade Shadow nonchalantly, a ship that's 55m in length.

‘Mara nodded. "I think so. Kyp, any reason to delay?"
"No." He glanced to the left, where the nearby Jedi Temple was clearly visible just past the Jade Shadow's stern. "Unless you'd like to save your engines-I can just pick you up and set you down over there." He reached out with his hand, palm up, an overly dramatic gesture, and the Jade Shadow vibrated for a moment, moving under the pressure he exerted with the Force.‘

-Exile

To round things off we have Jacen's display in Revelation where he endures a wave of negative emotion from hundreds whilst simultaneously creating an Illusion that fools several Fondorions despite not being on Fondor at the time or having any idea where the guards were on Fondor, a planet with billions of inhabitants. While it's obviously not as easily applied to combat it does show Jacen's immense raw power and in terms of magnitude is beyond anything we've seen from Dooku. Furthermore Jacen's never showed to have any kind of abnormal talent with illusions and sense and has mastered all aspects of the force, per literally every character to have spoken on the matter.

The dam burst in him, but it found a river channel. Caedus saw what the Fondorians operating the shield facility might see; he had no idea what the actual location looked like, but he didn't need to waste his strength projecting his consciousness to actually observe. Any imagined scene would do to focus him as the torrent of anger and raw nerves of a hundred or more commanders poured back through him. He pictured the shield generator plant, the control room, imagining it much as any other power plant in the industrialized galaxy: a wall covered in readouts and status lights, and rows of consoles around him where other workers kept an eye on the integrity of the shield and ensured that a constant power level fed it. There would be a message system, possibly an illuminated board updating staff on the security alert level, too. The exact details didn't matter, he knew, as long as he could imagine enough about what was happening in their minds to be able to latch on to some breeze of a thought in the Force, and slip into their world.

It was like listening for a particular noise or vibration when tuning a speeder drive. He always knew which sounds were normal, and which-however faint, however close to the threshold of his hearing-shouldn't have been there and indicated a problem. Once he heard that sound, it was the only one he could hear, blanking out all others.

Caedus dropped into that white noise of the feelings and thoughts of billions on Fondor, and heard the one repeating note out of kilter with the rest. He focused. In seconds, it filled his head to the exclusion of all else.

He was aware of solid, real beings moving around him on the ship, but he was now more aware of the shield generator facility five kilometers east of Oridin and the minds of the control room team.

There were more of them than usual, he could feel that. There was a sense of having strangers around, as if they'd called in extra staff and were running emergency operations, which fitted a facility that probably ran on standby with droids and a caretaker crew most of the time.

The fleet needs to shelter.

Caedus concentrated on projecting an impression that the GA Fleet and its allies had been driven off, and now ships needed to return to base under the protection of the shield. There was urgency in it, because many of the vessels were damaged and needed to land before atmosphere vented or hulls gave way.

Open up. Let us in.

He flooded the operators' minds with an urge to get the ships to safety as soon as possible, all kinds of worries and concerns about family members who might be on board, a burning sense of saving people, of pulling out all the stops...

Now. Drop the shields, we're going to crash, let us through, for pity's sake help us...

"Shields down!" It wasn't Nevil's voice, but that of the weapons officer. Caedus was still drifting in that fog of minds, drowning in their panic and urgency, and not here with the ship that was going to unleash their worst night-mare. "Cone section, fire when ready..."

-Revelation

TL;DR:

>Jacen is better than Maul and Vader, two people who've been compared to Dooku.
>Jacen has comparable, if not superior combative performances to the Count.
>Jacen has greater displays of force power and better TK scaling.

Sorry if there are any major spelling/grammar and/or formatting issues, if there are, alter me and I'll edit the post to fix them.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 7:19 pm
Yeah nah. Lucas' quote is being twisted to make a copout argument for Dooku, Vader and Maul being about equal.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 7:36 pm
Got other people to respond to but rest assured I'll get back to this.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 7:52 pm
@Meatpants Nice try, unfortunately:

1.Like equates to similarity, it doesn't mean they are all explicit equals merely that they're relative.

2.The passage is about Vader's strength, what else could it be referring to?
Blade_of_Dorin
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 8:05 pm
@DC77 Vader is "unimpressive ? lol
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 8:38 pm
Vader is POWER, just very overrated.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 9:19 pm
@DC77

Wanted to kill time so I figured I'd address this.

Right off the bat there's a clear cut comparison between the two. Dooku has been labelled as like Vader in power, while Jacen surpasses his Grandfather in that field.

I have a few issues with this:

A) The fact that Dooku is "like" Darth Vader and Darth Maul doesn't mean he's necessarily directly equal to them. He can easily be superior and the quote stills fits as long as he's on their general level meaning this doesn't put Caedus above him.

B) Dooku can easily be "like" Vader in the sense that he's weaker than Sidious.

C) Blurbs are subjective in nature per Chee.

Note that Dooku is also compared to Maul in power.

This falls under the rebuttals made previously.

The same Maul that performed worse against Sidious than Jacen did against Luke, a superior opponent.

This comparison is not at all valid. For starters, Luke was emotionally hindered (there's a quote which says so but I can't be bothered going to hunt for it seeing as I'm pretty sure you are aware of its existence) meaning you can't quantify how much power he was using and whether that power exceeded that of Sidious. Secondly this event is irreconcilably contradicted by the T-Canon episode during which Maul performs much better and manages to land a kick on Sidious which si the exact same thing Jacen did against Luke which you are praising him for.

When Kyle Katarn and three other Jedi assault Jacen he's capable of negating Kyle's attacks with only his instinctive guard while simultaneously dismissing the other Jedi via TK and physical strikes. After about ten seconds of fighting Jacen nearly severs the blade-masters leg, with the only thing saving his adversary from a quick death being the intervention of one of his fellow Jedi. Said Jedi was only capable of saving Kyle due to Jacen's restraint, he had no issue killing Katarn who was a very real threat however he needed the other Jedi alive to learn the location of the Jedi base, hence his use of non lethal attacks such as TK and physical strikes and him stalling for the arrival of GAG troops. It's clear if Jacen had been interested in killing the entire team the fight would have been a slaughter.

It's noted the team was coordinating to try to take Jacen out and thus Katarn can take risks and know his teammates have got his back which is clearly what he tries to do when Jacen nearly takes off his leg. It's obvious Jacen can't take out Katarn with ease as if he could he should have utterly decimated the team given the rest of the Jedi are collectively significantly inferior to Katarn himself per Jacen. Moreover none of the quotes you posted even prove Jacen was trying not to kill the team just that he was stalling for the GAG (which could simply be because he can't take the team out by himself) and that he kept them alive afterward when they were subdued by the GAG so he could find out the location of the base. Plus he only needs one member of the team alive in order to tell him where Luke's base is so why didn't he just kill 3 members of the team if could have effortlessly slaughtered them and keep the final one alive? You have not provided one shred of proof Jacen was not battling to his fullest.

All of this was during a timeframe when Jacen was still injured from his duel with Luke.

Earlier in the novel, Jacen notes he's recovering and that the pain that is left can largely be used to fuel his power meaning it probably wasn't that big of a factor.

The injuries in question were so bad that he was not only drained of energy after about a minute of fighting to the point where he was getting tagged with blaster fire and fodder Jedi he'd dismissed with TK earlier were giving him issues but he was also dropped to his knees by a graze to his leg from a blaster bolt despite having kept fighting without any repercussions a book earlier when hit by a far more damaging injury (A kidney stab from a lightsaber).

So what? You've proven that the injury affected his stamina but you haven't substantiated the idea that it affected him for the whole duel only that after extended periods of fighting the injury begins to affect him.

As for the assault cruiser feat, I don't have any particular issues with it but I honestly don't see how it's above Dooku and Maul.

Kyp's capable of shifting the Jade Shadow nonchalantly, a ship that's 55m in length.

And Dooku is capable of hurling cruisers which are at worst 75m and at best 215m (I'm more inclined to believe the latter) like footballs with TK. This is hardly out of his range. Moreover, Jacen's scaling over Kyp is sketchy given all Luke says is that he's not certain about anyone being capable of defeating Jacen besides himself not that someone definitively couldn't defeat Jacen.

As for the final feat (the one from Revelation), my problem with it is that there is no way to make a fair comparison between it and stuff Dooku has done given Dooku has almost no feats like this to compare Caedus's showing with.

Anyway, I'll make some comparisons between Dooku and Caedus tomorrow or next weekend as right now I'm tired as fuck and have other things I'm planning on doing tomorrow.

Edit: Shit I'm tired lol. Missed the Desann stuff. Will go over that when I make my Dooku>Caedus comparisons.


Last edited by ArkhamAsylum3 on May 18th 2019, 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
Meatpants
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 9:20 pm
He's overrated by one or two people, but for the most part he's in a good spot imo.
Blade_of_Dorin
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 9:46 pm
DC77 wrote:Vader is POWER, just very overrated.
Nah he's constantly lowballed
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 9:56 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
DC77 wrote:Vader is POWER, just very overrated.
Nah he's constantly lowballed

How is he lowballed?
Blade_of_Dorin
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 10:07 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
DC77 wrote:Vader is POWER, just very overrated.
Nah he's constantly lowballed

How is he lowballed?
People were placing him in fights with fodder like Ki Adi Mundi, lol
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 10:08 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
DC77 wrote:Vader is POWER, just very overrated.
Nah he's constantly lowballed

How is he lowballed?
People were placing him in fights with fodder like Ki Adi Mundi, lol

Where do you hold Vader and why do you hold him there?
Blade_of_Dorin
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 10:34 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 More powerful then Dooku and Maul, less powerful then Yoda and RotS Sheev
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on May 18th 2019, 10:35 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@DarthSkywalker0 More powerful then Dooku and Maul, less powerful then Yoda and RotS Sheev


Why is he more powerful than Dooku?
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 10:55 pm
@ArkhamAsylum3:

Wanted to kill time so I figured I'd address this.

So get on with it.

A) The fact that Dooku is "like" Darth Vader and Darth Maul doesn't mean he's necessarily directly equal to them. He can easily be superior and the quote stills fits as long as he's on their general level meaning this doesn't put Caedus above him.

B) Dooku can easily be "like" Vader in the sense that he's weaker than Sidious.

C) Blurbs are subjective in nature per Chee.

A) I never said they were equal, I stated they were relative. Sure you can argue Dooku's more powerful but I doubt it's to the same degree as Caedus. Furthermore though I'd agree with you, you've done little to substantiate the idea that Dooku is the most powerful of the 3.

B) That would be irrelevant to the subject at hand, Maul and Dooku being less powerful than Sidious is a self evident fact and says nothing about Vader's strength, which is the subject of discussion in the paragraph.

C) Chee says he doesn't deal in absolutes, naturally he took the opportunity to declare blurb quotes as non binding, he did the same thing with Sheev's supremacy quotes and literally everything else he's been asked about. The fact is, everything we debate about in SW is subject to interpretation and discussion, that doesn't mean we can simply dismiss quotes that point heavily in favour of a particular conclusion on those grounds. Quotes should be taken as legit unless there is contradictory evidence or a more viable interpretation, for the quote in question I don't see one.

This comparison is not at all valid. For starters, Luke was emotionally hindered (there's a quote which says so but I can't be bothered going to hunt for it seeing as I'm pretty sure you are aware of its existence) meaning you can't quantify how much power he was using and whether that power exceeded that of Sidious.

Citation needed.

Secondly this event is irreconcilably contradicted by the T-Canon episode during which Maul performs much better and manages to land a kick on Sidious which si the exact same thing Jacen did against Luke which you are praising him for.

Oh boy, you really didn't think this one through did you:

1.Being pedantic about the exact moves performed isn't a get out of jail free card, it just reveals that you have no counter proposition, my argument still stands.

2.The episode actually looks worse for Maul lol, Sheev is still laughing and grinning during their 1V1 engagement (Ergo, toying with him) and as soon as Maul kicks him Sheev stops toying and ends the fight, effortlessly overpowering Maul in a blade lock after their sabers clash before ragdolling him with TK.

3.So Maul in the episode gives a slightly better performance against an inferior, toying opponent and in the novel (Which we should take over the vague episode choreography btw) he gives a downright worse performance against a serious, inferior opponent. Either way Caedus still comes off better.

It's noted the team was coordinating to try to take Jacen out and thus Katarn can take risks and know his teammates have got his back which is clearly what he tries to do when Jacen nearly takes off his leg. It's obvious Jacen can't take out Katarn with ease as if he could he should have utterly decimated the team given the rest of the Jedi are collectively significantly inferior to Katarn himself per Jacen.

1.This idea is conjecture, and never stated throughout the text, nor even implied given what coordinating actually means. All this proves is that the team brought the different elements of a complex activity or organization into a harmonious or efficient relationship, ergo, the team are efficient at protecting each other, and are capable of producing a pleasing visual combination. None of that demonstrates to me that Kyle deliberately risked death, entrusting his life to a useless fodder, to give Jacen a scrape across the cheek.

2.Why Jacen's driven to a draw by Kyle, somebody who he can stomp in short order as shown and a bunch of nobodies is made explicit throughout the text, he wasn't interested in killing the team, he needed them alive and was awaiting the arrival of GAG troops to force a surrender/secure a capture.

Moreover none of the quotes you posted even prove Jacen was trying not to kill the team just that he was stalling for the GAG (which could simply be because he can't take the team out by himself) and that he kept them alive afterward when they were subdued by the GAG so he could find out the location of the base. Plus he only needs one member of the team alive in order to tell him where Luke's base is so why didn't he just kill 3 members of the team if could have effortlessly slaughtered them and keep the final one alive? You have not provided one shred of proof Jacen was not battling to his fullest.

1.Jacen's inability to kill the team and that he needs reinforcements is an assertion he'd gather partway through the duel but Jacen notes before the duel begins that GAG reinforcements would be arriving shortly, at the very beginning he wasn't interested in a massacre.

2.Jacen's not a dummy, the others are still useful in case one won't break or Jacen can use them as leverage over the others.

Earlier in the novel, Jacen notes he's recovering and that the pain that is left can largely be used to fuel his power meaning it probably wasn't that big of a fact

The key word their being recovering, not recovered. Yeah, Jacen can draw off the pain, but it's obviously not enough, given he's still driven to his knees by a blaster bolt when he can tank lightsaber strikes to more vulnerable places and still demonstrably drains out a lot faster than usual. What we can conclude from that is that Jacen has to put all of his energy into physical augmentation and the ability to draw off the pain, far more energy than he usually requires for either of those things, hence he burns out faster. I'm not claiming Jacen was operating below his usual combat levels but that he burned out faster than he usually would have, explaining why he was taxed by the duel which certain users like to play up as an indication Jacen had real issues with the team.


As for the assault cruiser feat, I don't have any particular issues with it but I honestly don't see how it's above Dooku and Maul.

Why, it's beyond anything that's been provided so far for Dooku?

And Dooku is capable of hurling cruisers which are at worst 75m and at best 215m (I'm more inclined to believe the latter) like footballs with TK. This is hardly out of his range. Moreover, Jacen's scaling over Kyp is sketchy given all Luke says is that he's not certain about anyone being capable of defeating Jacen besides himself not that someone definitively couldn't defeat Jacen.

1.Why do you believe they're more likely to be 215m? As an aside 75m isn't that much more impressive and Dooku had an amp stacked on top of his base power.

2.You ignored Jacen's assessment of the subject.

3.I think it's clearly that Luke's insinuating he's the only one who can take Jacen for a majority something that's made fairly apparent all throughout LOTF.

As for the final feat (the one from Revelation), my problem with it is that there is no way to make a fair comparison between it and stuff Dooku has done given Dooku has almost no feats like this to compare Caedus's showing with.

Anyway, I'll make some comparisons between Dooku and Caedus tomorrow or next weekend as right now I'm tired as fuck and have other things I'm planning on doing tomorrow.

1.In other words you have nothing to match. KK.

2.Bro, you literally have nothing else worth doing, you sit in your room all day lol. In any case I look forward to it.


Last edited by DC77 on May 18th 2019, 11:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
DarthSkywalker0
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 10:56 pm
God seeing the twins use that Lucas quote as a legit argument is sad.
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 11:12 pm
Will respond next weekend as I said. Maybe even tomorrow if I can muster up the energy.

Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 228124001
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 11:17 pm
Dooku legit sodomized, asajj has been unwilling lately and he has to relieve himself
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 11:26 pm
...


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DarthAnt66
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Count Dooku vs Caedus  - Page 2 Empty Re: Count Dooku vs Caedus

on May 18th 2019, 11:48 pm
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