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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

on November 8th 2019, 12:25 pm
i do believe that he is talking about children siding with luke because he is the good guy, and good guys win. now, how does politics, authority, and armies apply to this?? do tell. now im curious tbh
DC77 (Reborn)
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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

on November 8th 2019, 1:02 pm
Luke.
WalkingInCircles
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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

on November 8th 2019, 3:18 pm
Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
 Star Wars - Beware of the Sith

Mind providing the entire source for this? 


Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battlewas more than just physical strength and Force powers. 
Star Wars - Jedi Battles

Which doesn't make since Luke was clearly dominating him blade to blade.



The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111

Refers to sabers.



Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script

Luke can grow stronger and still be < Vader in the Force, especially if he's


On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization

See above.

To clarify, I'm referring to base Luke, not enraged Luke. Enraged Luke is up in the air for me.
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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

Yesterday at 9:13 am
@WalkingInCircles wrote:
Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
 Star Wars - Beware of the Sith

Mind providing the entire source for this? 

Do you think the full source would state anything more than Jedi Battles did?

"Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength. And therefore Vader was holding back and he's not actually equal to Luke, he's better."

I'm not sure what the full source is, but I'm certain it attributes that entirely to the nature of Father vs Son as opposed to some sort of skill or power discrepancy. It seems odd to have a wait-and-see type of viewpoint like you're expecting a complete contradiction, and then carry on with your assertion that Vader is definitively above Luke in complete opposition to the first line. Especially when "their duels are more than just about physical strength" seeks to cement that in place and then assert that the mental aspect is important to how this duel played out. We know this as we watched the movie and the duel wasn't just a pure showdown mostly played out in action; almost an equal amount played out in Luke's head until he exploded.


@WalkingInCircles wrote:

Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battlewas more than just physical strength and Force powers. 
Star Wars - Jedi Battles

Which doesn't make since Luke was clearly dominating him blade to blade.


So what is even correct if the quote is wrong? You don't accept them being equally skilled based on what is shown, but you accept Vader being more powerful than Luke based on what isn't shown? A perceivable error or flaw in one part of the line doesn't override the whole section. This is a false dichotomy on your part as it simply means Luke wasn't equal in skill to him; he was better. That doesn't impact the power segment and actually implies the source is underselling Luke's abilities if anything. Is the doubt you want to cast on this source to be them underrating Luke's abilities?
As an aside, I also find it interesting how you want to handwave this source as these DK books are a huge source of Vader wank.

To address what you stated though; Luke was shown to gain an advantage in sabers, but that doesn't mean the quote is inherently wrong due to that (See ROTJ Comic Page later on). Luke wasn't shown to dominate Vader until he fully spazzed out, but he wasn't shown to completely blow Vader out beforehand. This would mean that your interpretation is incorrect, but not the source of this quote. The quote would still make sense in the context of everything else we know.



@WalkingInCircles wrote:
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111

Refers to sabers.

Except that the entire source attributes his saber prowess and the battle itself to his power.

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen64
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen63
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen62


In fact, the last one even implies Vader's skills are the turning point - though of course, we know Vader tried to cheapshot Luke there. The actual source attributes the "equal match" to his growing power.

Or if we look a little further since you won't take explicit statements... we have a few lesser-known sources attributing Luke's battles against Vader to his own personal power.

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen67
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 20190510
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen72


Or Vader himself being impressed by both Luke's strength and his timing. Astounded even. Which would be a little odd if Vader was intended to be two greater-than signs above Luke in the force.

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen71



@WalkingInCircles wrote:
Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script

Luke can grow stronger and still be < Vader in the Force, especially if he's

What if he grew stronger and was equal to him in power and skill?

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen65

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Rco02710



What if... and bear with me because this one's a doozy... but what if they were actually equal in both respects? What would this change in the source material? What would this change in secondary material? What is the result of this that's too extreme for mainstream Youtube? Why does Luke have to be inferior in one of these aspects when that only seeks to bring out an incredibly complex answer? Why would you want Vader to lose - or do very poorly with this in place - against someone far below him in power?


@WalkingInCircles wrote:
On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization

See above.

To clarify, I'm referring to base Luke, not enraged Luke. Enraged Luke is up in the air for me.

Well, both Vader and Luke's growth in skill is attributed to their personal power, and this is a source purely about Lightsaber skill and forms too, not an all-encompassing take on the Force.

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen66
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen70
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen69
RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Screen68


There's no big separation as you can see when it comes to Luke's saber skills and his Force powers. His saber skills are directly related to his power in the Force, but the same isn't true in reverse. While this source seeks to reconcile how well Luke did, it only adds the caveat that it was due to a combination of power AND skill and not just power as originally asserted in ESB. With that in effect, we can safely assume an increase in both pushes him further up to Vader's level, which is where the other sources come in where they state they are equally powerful. It all works out in the end.

Though tbh, I'm a little confused by why you're drawing a line in the sand with this? What exactly do you want the end result to come out of this? That Luke was so skilled that he can overcome a vast power discrepancy and experience edge from Vader? That it's more believable that Luke can grow far in excess of Vader's skill in a couple of months than it is for him to become equal to Vader in power? That Luke's skill and power didn't grow in lockstep with each other even though Luke's skill is a direct result of his raw power and potential - not Skywalker skill? That even though you can accumulate wild raw power in the Force with little effort; Luke can hone his skill - in far less time than he's had to grow in power - to far outpace his Skywalker potential? Etc.

Why are we ready to throw out many sources in favor of this viewpoint? Is it so we can say that Vader could have possibly won easily if he abused the Force, but we're ready to concede that one rageboost from Luke is enough to completely flip the odds? If it's undeniable that the rageboost from Luke was a display of power, then why is it hard to believe that Luke doing the same thing the rest of the fight with less success was a display of power as well? Is the saber only caveat a display of limitation or an intention of equal powers? If nearly every source that speaks on it in existence speaks of it being a display of Luke's power, then why are we so willing to toss all those away in favor of some... obscure viewpoint where we try to mitigate Luke's power as much as possible?

I see what you're trying to say - Luke is say a 60 in sabers and a 40 in the Force whereas Vader's is reversed - but that's not exactly based on any established facts (in Luke's case) but rather largely rooted in headcanon. If we're going by what I'll call "incredibility" for lack of a better term, then if Luke could reach and surpass Vader in any aspect due to raw POWER POTENTIAL then how hard is it to believe he could reach his level in other aspects - like power for example? You know with his raw potential to be one of the most powerful beings in existence; and the whole reason Vader wanted him on his side in the first place? Or did he only want him for his lightsaber savant skills?

If you want to say Vader could win due to more esoteric means then that's fine, be my guest. I am in favor of gaps being exploited in lesser experienced Force wielders after all, as I am a huge supporter in Luke losing to Kun due to inexperience. That, however, is not indicative of what happens when pure power clashes with pure power; and that's what Vader vs Luke was intended to portray - BIG POWER! It wasn't about Luke learning all these powers to combat Vader and adjust for every possible outcome. It was about Luke acquiring a vast amount of power and skill to combat Vader on equal footing. Had Vader been more wizardly then that may not have worked out, but Luke and his teachers saw that the best way to combat the personification of power was with equal power. It streamlined his training due to Vader's preferences. They threw a nuke at Vader and hoped it would be enough. I'm not entirely sure what you saw or what you wanted to see that would or would go against this? Did the lack of a Force struggle make you think it possible to completely disregard this? Luke wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader, that's why he could effortlessly handle Vader's enhanced strength and form and even overpower or casually deflect his surprise blows at times?

Like I said, a little confused, but I'm sure you'll clear the air here in your response, and we can open this right up.

________________

Before it gets said, but I didn't feel the need to emphasize "strength" or "power" in a lot of my sources as I felt they spoke for themselves. Afterall, "lightsaber strength" and "lightsaber power" are the alternative readings to that and that just reads ridiculous and in no way the intention. For example:

"He had enough lightsaber strength to challenge Vader."
"Luke faces the lightsaber power of..."

RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 39523600


I'd like to thank @DC77 (Reborn) for all of these sources and he was very gracious in giving them to me. Unfortunately, he didn't have Beware of The Sith in his inventory but I think it will suffice. I only hope he stands behind me as this debate continues as he's an invaluable source of well, sources.

@WalkingInCircles The moove is in your court now.
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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

Yesterday at 10:46 am
Prolly ROTS Sheev, but it is hard to say.
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RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke - Page 2 Empty Re: RotS Sheev vs. TT Luke

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