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Azronger
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on June 8th 2019, 9:32 am
I had a discussion with Ant earlier today about the nature of the Dread Masters' power. He admitted it all comes from the Phobis devices, and the Masters lose potency every time a device is destroyed. It seems all the Dread Master hype has been one big lie. I was on the money with my interpretation of the first codex quote: they could only TP fleets with the aid of trinkets, and even then only while concentrating intently in meditation. I can't fathom how shit the Dread Masters must be without their artifacts boosting them. They couldn't even TP Darth Nox after they got out of prison (link ), so whatever this feat is of them downing the Hero of Tython, it was probably accomplished when they were amped as well.

Bane would honestly slaughter them. Let's see if Ant can convince me otherwise tomorrow.
LadyKulvax
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on June 8th 2019, 10:42 am
So an incredibly weak and drained Dread Masters collective couldn't break Nox, who is specifically noted by Tenebrae himself to be nigh-unbreakable, so therefore they are crap. Yeah, no.

The Dread Masters had to have mental war waged against them so a protagonist could stand a chance of completing missions on Oricon.

Just one Dread Master is clearly capable of taking on an entire strike team. Even well off of a nexus, as was the case with Styrak.

The Dread Masters were never amplified by the Phobis Devices. They mastered and perfected the power the Phobis Devices contained. The actual power they weilded was obtained through rituals designed by Styrak. This fake news should die before it spreads.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on June 8th 2019, 2:57 pm
Really enjoying the debunking of The Dread Masters, keep it coming lads.
PeraltaEagle45
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on June 8th 2019, 5:29 pm
While I will agree with Kulvax that being unable to dominate Nox (someone whose will was noted to be comparable to Vitiate's) while weakened isn't a slight against them, they simply aren't Plagueis-level, or even all that close tbh. Let's not forget that each can channel the power of all the others. So Styrack's stand is with the power of all the Dread Masters. And not only that, they were unable to attack the PC's mind without express permission from the PC to do so.
LadyKulvax
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on June 8th 2019, 7:50 pm
Actually, they're stated to be at full strength when they're together. Styrak alone clearly isn't as strong.
Azronger
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on June 9th 2019, 1:53 am
SithArchaeologist wrote:While I will agree with Kulvax that being unable to dominate Nox (someone whose will was noted to be comparable to Vitiate's) while weakened isn't a slight against them, they simply aren't Plagueis-level, or even all that close tbh. Let's not forget that each can channel the power of all the others. So Styrack's stand is with the power of all the Dread Masters. And not only that, they were unable to attack the PC's mind without express permission from the PC to do so.

Where is Nox's will compared to Vitiate's?
BreakofDawn
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on June 10th 2019, 6:00 am
@Azronger wrote:I had a discussion with Ant earlier today about the nature of the Dread Masters' power. He admitted it all comes from the Phobis devices, and the Masters lose potency every time a device is destroyed. It seems all the Dread Master hype has been one big lie. I was on the money with my interpretation of the first codex quote: they could only TP fleets with the aid of trinkets, and even then only while concentrating intently in meditation. I can't fathom how shit the Dread Masters must be without their artifacts boosting them. They couldn't even TP Darth Nox after they got out of prison (link ), so whatever this feat is of them downing the Hero of Tython, it was probably accomplished when they were amped as well.

Bane would honestly slaughter them. Let's see if Ant can convince me otherwise tomorrow.

Not so sure about that. Even SoR Emperor's Wrath seemed to think their power was immense, and that's without the phobis devices to amp themselves.

OT: Stop at 6 or hard stop at 7.
Azronger
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on June 10th 2019, 6:22 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Azronger wrote:I had a discussion with Ant earlier today about the nature of the Dread Masters' power. He admitted it all comes from the Phobis devices, and the Masters lose potency every time a device is destroyed. It seems all the Dread Master hype has been one big lie. I was on the money with my interpretation of the first codex quote: they could only TP fleets with the aid of trinkets, and even then only while concentrating intently in meditation. I can't fathom how shit the Dread Masters must be without their artifacts boosting them. They couldn't even TP Darth Nox after they got out of prison (link ), so whatever this feat is of them downing the Hero of Tython, it was probably accomplished when they were amped as well.

Bane would honestly slaughter them. Let's see if Ant can convince me otherwise tomorrow.

Not so sure about that. Even SoR Emperor's Wrath seemed to think their power was immense, and that's without the phobis devices to amp themselves.

OT: Stop at 6 or hard stop at 7.

Citation needed.

And is that their only claim to fame? Or do they have something else? As far as I see, failing to TP Nox puts a pretty damning cap on them. I fail to see how they get past Bane, much less the consecutive rounds.
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on June 10th 2019, 6:28 am
@Azronger "The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."

From (Emperor's Wrath II, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)


We also know that powerful Force users like Darth Marr both feared the Dread Masters and believed that they were > the Emperor's Wrath/Darth Nox (supported by feats as well).

And it's not their only claim to fame. They were stated to have taken out entire fleets, brought the HoT/Barsen'Thor to their knees while being half a galaxy away and communicating with an apparition, and brought Nox or the EW to their knees when actually trying on Oricon. They were only defeated by the HoT/EW either with a strike team  (you can decide for yourself whether it was just them or if there were others) while also being weakened by Jedi or Sith interference and meditation. Even then, they immobilised and clearly affected the HoT without even being present.

https://youtu.be/BcbPP5eeRU0?t=784
Azronger
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on June 10th 2019, 7:20 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:@Azronger "The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."

From (Emperor's Wrath II, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan)


We also know that powerful Force users like Darth Marr both feared the Dread Masters and believed that they were > the Emperor's Wrath/Darth Nox (supported by feats as well).

Nowhere there does the Wrath say he thinks the Dread Masters are impressive. The entire conversation is as follows:



Darth Marr: "There can be no mistaking it: the Emperor is on this moon. Revan is here as well. And another presence, if you wish to believe the Grand Master."

Satele Shan: "The other presence--it's unclear. The dark side permeates everything here. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon; this is another level entirely."

Darth Nox / The Emperor's Wrath: "Oricon was affected by the Dread Masters. Even their combined power was insignificant compared to the Emperor."


Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan

The player's comment is in response to Satele's statement that the Yavin IV nexus is far stronger than Oricon's. All they're saying is that Vitiate's influence on Yavin was more significant than the Dread Masters' on Oricon due to his vastly greater power. Nothing about the Dread Masters' power being impressive is mentioned.

As for your other claims - substantiation is needed. Under what context did Darth Marr "fear" the Dread Masters and believed them to be greater than Nox and the Wrath? And what feats to do they boast that cement them as their superiors? I'd say their utter failure to TP Nox says otherwise. And most importantly, how does any of this put them above Darth Bane?
BreakofDawn
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on June 10th 2019, 10:58 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Azronger
Nowhere there does the Wrath say he thinks the Dread Masters are impressive. The entire conversation is as follows:



Darth Marr: "There can be no mistaking it: the Emperor is on this moon. Revan is here as well. And another presence, if you wish to believe the Grand Master."

Satele Shan: "The other presence--it's unclear. The dark side permeates everything here. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon; this is another level entirely."

Darth Nox / The Emperor's Wrath: "Oricon was affected by the Dread Masters. Even their combined power was insignificant compared to the Emperor."

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan

The player's comment is in response to Satele's statement that the Yavin IV nexus is far stronger than Oricon's. All they're saying is that Vitiate's influence on Yavin was more significant than the Dread Masters' on Oricon due to his vastly greater power. Nothing about the Dread Masters' power being impressive is mentioned.

I should have clarified, so this was my fault. The player's comment in regards to the nexus is to compare the extent of how the two affected their respective planets. The point of the EW's comment about the Dread Masters - as you've touched on - is to emphasise how Vitiate >>> the Dread Masters. With that said, the comparison between the two is clearly intended to emphasise how powerful Vitiate is by comparing him to extremely powerful Force users, which in this case are the Dread Masters. The point stands that the EW is still acknowledging the sheer power of the DM by pretty much saying "yeah the Dread Masters were very powerful but they're nothing when compared to Vitiate."
The reference is made in the same way you might say for example "Tom is nothing compared to Ralph" when Ralph used to be the fastest or the strongest when it came to something. It's simply to further showcase how powerful both are while hyping up Vitiate's power to be >>> a group arguably more powerful than anyone in the pre KOTFE/KOTET era.

As for your other claims - substantiation is needed. Under what context did Darth Marr "fear" the Dread Masters and believed them to be greater than Nox and the Wrath?


https://youtu.be/YR7STEpF_P8?t=122

"Challenge me before the Dark Council if you wish. But turn away, and Korriban itself may burn."

Marr clearly fears the powers of the DM by emphasising that they might become unstoppable (using Korriban, the most sacred planet in the Sith Empire, to emphasise this).

As for believing DN or EW < Dread Masters:

"Even you cannot slay the Masters singlehandedly. If you can reach Oricon, however, you may find some remnant of Hargrave's task force."

And what feats to do they boast that cement them as their superiors?

They're outright stated by Marr to be > DN/EW, confirmed to have destroyed entire fleets and armies with their fear inducing powers in their codex entry (copied and pasted below), brought the HoT/Barsen'Thor to their knees from across the galaxy, and did the same to Nox or the EW on Oricon without even being present. They also were only defeated by a strike team which included the HoT/Barsen'Thor/Nox/EW and only because they were weakened by the other Jedi and Sith on Oricon while the strike team was also shielded.


Original Game Codex Text
The Dread Masters are powerful Sith Lords who have served the Sith Emperor for centuries as prophets, generals and advisors. Their name was earned when they studied the power of the Phobis devices, artifacts that have driven even the most depraved Sith mad with terror. This power allowed the Dread Masters to destroy entire Republic fleets during the Great War, until they were captured and imprisoned on Belsavis. The Dread Masters were known to spend years in secluded meditation on Dromund Kaas, emerging only to bring their wisdom to the Emperor or accept gifts from supplicants. Over the decades, they have become inseparable, their immense strength in the Force coming only from all six masters working in unison. Should the Empire ever succeed in freeing them from Belsavis, the galaxy will tremble before them again.





I'd say their utter failure to TP Nox says otherwise.


https://youtu.be/YR7STEpF_P8?t=744

They did it on Oricon via an apparition. They probably just underestimated Nox and the Emperor's Wrath the first time.

And most importantly, how does any of this put them above Darth Bane?

Does Bane have willpower or power feats putting him above the Emperor's Wrath, Nox, Barsen'Thor, or HoT? Nox, Revan and the HoT have the most impressive willpower feats in SWTOR, yet all of them were struggling to deal with the DM's influence and powers. Unless Bane has something putting him firmly above them in the willpower and power departments, they beat him.
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on June 10th 2019, 1:48 pm
DC77 wrote:Stops at 4, maybe 5.
PeraltaEagle45
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on June 10th 2019, 2:00 pm
Just to clarify: No, the Dread Masters NEVER overpowered Nox's will with theirs. They never successfully launched a telepathic attack on him. Not even on Oricon. What BoD linked to conveniently skipped past this very crucial part just a moment earlier: https://youtu.be/YR7STEpF_P8?t=692

The Dread Masters crippled all of the Imperial forces on Oricon, save Nox (in this case, the Emperor's Wrath, who has far fewer and less impressive willpower/TP feats, making this showing even worse for the DMs). On Oricon, in the heart of their power, they were unable to attack Nox's mind directly. They needed to know what he feared, and for him to essentially "give permission" for them to launch an attack. They took his troops hostage, and said, "let us attack you or we'll kill them all." Hardly a feat of direct overpowering.
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on June 10th 2019, 2:19 pm
@SithArchaeologist I didn't "conveniently skip" it, I simply put it to the relevant section for time purposes. In any case, they were able to seize upon this fear by targeting it and he was powerless to stop them, so it's still them overwhelming his TP defences by fixating on his fear and overwhelming him. Again, they weren't even present for this.

If you want another indication, they overwhelmed the Barsen'Thor who also has incredibly impressive mental defences from half a galaxy away while in astral form and therefore not actually there/at their full power.
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on June 10th 2019, 2:59 pm
@BreakofDawn

I should have clarified, so this was my fault. The player's comment in regards to the nexus is to compare the extent of how the two affected their respective planets. The point of the EW's comment about the Dread Masters - as you've touched on - is to emphasise how Vitiate >>> the Dread Masters. With that said, the comparison between the two is clearly intended to emphasise how powerful Vitiate is by comparing him to extremely powerful Force users, which in this case are the Dread Masters. The point stands that the EW is still acknowledging the sheer power of the DM by pretty much saying "yeah the Dread Masters were very powerful but they're nothing when compared to Vitiate."
The reference is made in the same way you might say for example "Tom is nothing compared to Ralph" when Ralph used to be the fastest or the strongest when it came to something. It's simply to further showcase how powerful both are while hyping up Vitiate's power to be >>> a group arguably more powerful than anyone in the pre KOTFE/KOTET era.

Except that it's Satele who brings Oricon up, not the Wrath. The latter simply addresses her statement by explaining that even when operating in unison, the Dread Masters are no match for the Emperor, which is the reason Yavin IV is so much more drenched in the dark side than Oricon. The point isn't to "emphasise how powerful Vitiate is by comparing him to extremely powerful Force users" - that the Dread Masters may be exceptionally strong is extraneous information that can't be inferred from the Wrath's comments. At best you can say Satele thinks that, but not the Wrath.

For the rest of your post, everything you said was taken out of context. You do realize your very own quote says it was the power of the Phobis devices that enabled the Dread Masters to ravage fleets, don't you? Further, it was noted they accomplished this while in deep meditation - the evidence is earlier in this thread. Normally we don't hand out special prep time or equipment to the combatants unless the thread specifically stipulates such, so the Dread Masters aren't allowed time to meditate in active combat nor can they draw on the Phobis devices to aid them. In the very video you cited, the Dread Masters have a Phobis device right in the center of their sanctum, surrounded by all their seats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR7STEpF_P8&feature=youtu.be&t=853

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Phobis10

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Phobis11

The above codex entry further states the Dread Masters "harnessed" the power of the Phobis devices, reinforcing the idea they drew on their power to accomplish most of their feats, especially if they have one stored in the heart of their throne room. And with that, I don't think I have any more interest in hearing about what the Dread Masters have done; I have them figured out. Unless you can conclusively prove that some feat of theirs was done without the support of the Phobis devices, I will from now on dismiss whatever you bring to the table as worthless under the assumption it was achieved with their aid.

https://youtu.be/YR7STEpF_P8?t=122

"Challenge me before the Dark Council if you wish. But turn away, and Korriban itself may burn."

Marr clearly fears the powers of the DM by emphasising that they might become unstoppable (using Korriban, the most sacred planet in the Sith Empire, to emphasise this).

This isn't even in a combative context.

1) According to the official website, "the Dread Masters plot to torment the galaxy from their ancient fortress compound," meaning they aren't intending on budging an inch from their home turf where they are amped both by the moon's "immeasurably strong" dark side nexus and the Phobis devices.

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Dread_10

2) The website adds that "The Dread Masters are bent on destroying both the Empire and Republic and they’re using their every resource to do so!" Among their resources is "a collection of powerful and ancient technologies that lie well outside of our scientific understanding" according to Gnost-Dural, technologies which he identified as Rakatan weapons. Darth Malgus also admitted Rakatan tech far transcends anything they had currently available.

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Dread_11

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Dread_13

The Dread Masters run the Banite Gauntlet - Page 3 Dread_12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_WGJwpiv0c&t=2m46s

3) Again in the video you cite, Raptus states that "Even now, our ships prepare to launch and deliver our devices to other worlds--Dromund Kaas, Nar Shaddaa, and Coruscant," and Calphayus adds that "Populations will be infected and planets overgrown. Mothers will kill daughters as soldiers weep in terror." These are either the Phobis devices or the Rakatan weapons Gnost-Dural spoke of (they may even be one and the same), and it's clear the Dread Masters' own power isn't involved here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR7STEpF_P8&feature=youtu.be&t=573

All in all, I see no reason to take Darth Marr being concerned about the threat the Dread Masters pose as one of personal combat on neutral ground.

As for believing DN or EW < Dread Masters:

"Even you cannot slay the Masters singlehandedly. If you can reach Oricon, however, you may find some remnant of Hargrave's task force."

As mentioned earlier, the Dread Masters planned on staying on Oricon for the duration of the conflict, where they would be amped by the Phobis devices. Their most famous exploits - ones which Marr would be most familiar with - were also achieved through the devices' power, not the Masters' own. I have no reason to believe Marr knew that most of their power comes from some trinkets and thought that the protagonist would face them outside their stronghold where they have no access to them. I don't believe his proclamation reveals anything about the Dread Masters' unamped capabilities. Their most potent ability - Force fear - was already tanked by Nox after only a brief struggle.

https://youtu.be/YR7STEpF_P8?t=744

They did it on Oricon via an apparition. They probably just underestimated Nox and the Emperor's Wrath the first time.

Dude, the context is, like, right there in the video. The Dread Masters request the Wrath to name his worst fear and instruct him to fill his mind with it before they begin to assault his psyche. Even then, the ordeal didn't last half as long as Nox's did; the Dread Masters cease their efforts after only two seconds, which isn't enough to conclude anything about whether they're superior to the Wrath or not. And again, the Phobis amp makes this feat worthless anyway.

Does Bane have willpower or power feats putting him above the Emperor's Wrath, Nox, Barsen'Thor, or HoT? Nox, Revan and the HoT have the most impressive willpower feats in SWTOR, yet all of them were struggling to deal with the DM's influence and powers. Unless Bane has something putting him firmly above them in the willpower and power departments, they beat him.

Proof for Revan struggling with the Dread Masters? I don't recall that being stated anywhere, only that the Masters assisted Vitiate in his attempts to break and convert Revan and were unsuccessful. And you know, if Revan could hold off Vitiate's influence, why would he have problems with the Dread Masters whose powers are "insignificant compared to the Emperor"? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Regardless, if the Dread Masters need to concentrate their power in intense meditation and draw on external amplifiers for strength to drive a fleet of muggles insane, and if without such factors you still firmly profess them to be greater than or comparable to the protagonists and Revan, then that caps the latter as well. I don't really need you to provide any feats for them to argue Bane is superior as all I have to do is prove Bane is better than scaring a few scores of non-Force sensitives through lengthy focusing while amped, but I'll do that later. I think the debunking of the Masters is enough for now.


Last edited by Azronger on June 12th 2019, 8:03 am; edited 3 times in total
The Apprentice
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on June 10th 2019, 3:14 pm
I'd don't think the phrase "debunking of the Masters" is a very accurate summary of what's happening in this thread.
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on June 10th 2019, 3:31 pm
Aleema Keto's feats are better than the Dread causing a few fleets to shit their pants. I'd be interested in seeing a thorough debunk of the Dread dropping the Hero to his knees, as I always found it a bit suspect.

Nice work anyway Az.
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on June 10th 2019, 3:48 pm
The Cosmic Force wrote:I'd don't think the phrase "debunking of the Masters" is a very accurate summary of what's happening in this thread.

If you believe yourself capable of mustering an adequate defense for the Masters, feel free to do so.
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on June 10th 2019, 3:51 pm
@Azronger wrote:
The Cosmic Force wrote:I'd don't think the phrase "debunking of the Masters" is a very accurate summary of what's happening in this thread.

If you believe yourself capable of mustering an adequate defense for the Masters, feel free to do so.

I don't feel the need to. I'm sure Ant will prove The Dread Master's beat at least the earlier members of the gauntlet once his case is done.
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on June 11th 2019, 10:12 am
@Azronger Sorry for not replying earlier. I was an idiot and accidentally deleted all of my notifications so I had to find the thread again, lol.

Frankly, I've never gotten to the operations stage of the Oricon story so I'm not sure of all of the DM's abilities and you seem to know more about them than I do. I still believe they can get past Bane and rounds 2 and 3 but I can't make a strong case with the feats I know of (you probably realised that, lol).
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on November 16th 2019, 5:17 pm
Stops at 5
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