Anakin & Obi-Wan vs. Dooku - Full Fight

From the Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization.

PART ONE -- THE COMEDY

Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power.

Lord Sidious would take it from there.

"Surrender." Kenobi's voice deepened into finality. "You will be given no further chance."

Dooku lifted an eyebrow. "Unless one of you happens to be carrying Yoda in his pocket, I hardly think I shall need one."

The Force crackled between them, and the ship pitched and bucked under a new turbolaser barrage, and Dooku decided that the time had come. He flicked a false glance over his shoulder-a hint of distraction to draw the attack-And all three of them moved at once.

The ship shuddered and the red smoke surged from Anakin's spine into his arms and legs and head and when Dooku gave the slightest glance of concern over his shoulder, distracted for half an instant, Anakin just couldn't wait anymore.

He sprang, lightsaber angled for the kill.

Obi-Wan leapt from Dooku's far side in perfect coordination-and they met in midair, for the Sith Lord was no longer between them.

Anakin looked up just in time to glimpse the bottom of Dooku's rancor-leather boot as it came down on his face and smacked him tumbling toward the floor; he reached into the Force to effortlessly right himself and touched down in perfect balance to spring again toward the lightning flares, scarlet against sky blue, that sprayed from clashing lightsabers as Dooku pressed Obi-Wan away with a succession of weaving, flourishing thrusts that drove the Jedi's blade out of line while they reached for his heart.

Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back-and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one-handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own-and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall. His lightsaber came loose from his slackening fingers and clattered across the tabletop to drop to the floor on the far side.

And Dooku barely even seemed to be paying attention to him.

Pinned, breathless, half stunned, Anakin thought, If this keeps up, I am going to get mad.

While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.

"My my," he said, chuckling. "The boy has some power after all."

His backroll brought him to his feet directly in front of the lad, who was charging, headlong and unarmed, after the table he had tossed, and was already thoroughly red in the face.

"I'm twice the Jedi I was last time!"

Ah, Dooku thought. Such a fragile little ego. Sidious will have to help him with that. But until then-The grip of Skywalker's blade whistled through the air to meet his hand in perfect synchrony with a sweeping slash. "My powers have doubled since we last met-"

"How lovely for you." Dooku neatly sidestepped, cutting at the boy's leg, yet Skywalker's blade met the cut as he passed and he managed to sweep his blade behind his head to slap aside the casual thrust Dooku aimed at the back of his neck-but his clumsy charge had put him in Kenobi's path, so that the Jedi Master had to Force-roll over his partner's head.

Directly at Dooku's upraised blade.

Kenobi drove a slash at the scarlet blade while he pivoted in the air, and again Dooku sidestepped so that now it was Kenobi in Skywalker's way.

"Really," Dooku said, "this is pathetic."

Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to out-maneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could to do keep from laughing out loud.

It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat-attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides-while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.

Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another-and occasionally flip over a head here and there-so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way.

They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.

They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.

He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

PART TWO -- THE FIGHT

He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet-and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down-Skywalker was already there.

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.

Now it was time to kill.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this . . .

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

PART THREE -- THE SLAUGHTER

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with the synthetic bloodshine of a Sith blade.
[hideedit]

Anakin > Dooku >> Kenobi

Anakin( enraged)>>Dooku~normal Anakin > Kenobi

Cringe department, I’d like to file a complaint against the Kenobi-loving Indian.

DS Anakin > LS Anakin >= Dooku = Kenobi

DS Anakin>>>LS Anakin~Dooku>>>Kenobi.

DC77 wrote:DS Anakin>>>LS Anakin~Dooku>>>Kenobi.

@LOTL I know it triggers unpleasant emotions to remind you but I'm afraid I have to bring your attention back to reality, the reality where Kenobi was TK stomped by Dooku while he was exhausted and Skywalker was breathing down his neck. At best Kenobi is a better saber duellist, Dooku is considerably faster and more powerful.

You'd have to define "tk stomped" first because catching someone off guard is not tk stomping them.

And who were the Jedi exhausting him? While toying?

Right, because Dooku still calling Kenobi's speed as "blinding" after having encountered a serious Anakin's speed and after being serious and deciding to kill, with Kenobi effortlessly deflecting his every blow means that Dooku is considerably faster. Sure.

Out of the dreamworld, Ventress has dismissed Kenobi with Anakin aiding him. But we both know either of them can and have tooled her. Let's go over the most obvious disadvantage of having teammates-Having to account for their moves and relying on them? But a teammate getting knocked out just as you were striking your opponent, expecting him to be occupied with the opponent and not notice you, and then being completely caught off guard, that is not any indication of your inferiority to the opponent. All of this has been confirmed in the novels by the way.

You know, that is basic common sense.

Besides, that's not even needed. Kenobi goes into a state where he experiences the full strength of the light side after his battle with Dooku. Yet Utapau Kenobi is confirmed to be better than him, and obviously Mustafar Kenobi is better than any version of him. Establishing a vast difference between Kenobi at his best, and IH Kenobi.

Then you have Kenobi himself admitting that Anakin's applicable strength on Mustafar is greater than that on the IH. Twice. The rest is easy.

Wait for the actual case though.

@LOTL:

You'd have to define "tk stomped" first because catching someone off guard is not tk stomping them.

And why was Kenobi caught off guard exactly? That's right, it's because Dooku successfully off balanced him and created an opening where he was fast enough to subdue Kenobi with the force, which is literally what's portrayed on screen and what the JN Novel. The premise of the argument is that Dooku can TK stomp Kenobi, it doesn't matter how. If Dooku can "catch Kenobi off guard" under unfavourable circumstances he can sure as hell do it under regular circumstances that favour him.

And who were the Jedi exhausting him? While toying?

Let's use a little thing called "logic" here why don't we? Dooku was exhausted by the combined might of the Jedi, which included Skywalker, who by himself is already superior to Dooku.

Right, because Dooku still calling Kenobi's speed as "blinding" after having encountered a serious Anakin's speed and after being serious and deciding to kill, with Kenobi effortlessly deflecting his every blow means that Dooku is considerably faster. Sure.

Dooku was taken off guard by the duo who were previously messing around upping the tempo of their attack. He didn't have time to properly adapt, they were all over him as the text notes. Furthermore Dooku was under the impression Kenobi was using Ataru when trying to force him to jump, it's only after Kenobi didn't do anything more than block and parry that Dooku realised Kenobi was using Soresu. Essentially Dooku utilised tactics meant to deal with another form, not the one he was currently up against, allowing Kenobi to "stonewall" Dooku for about 5 strikes.

Out of the dreamworld, Ventress has dismissed Kenobi with Anakin aiding him. But we both know either of them can and have tooled her. Let's go over the most obvious disadvantage of having teammates-Having to account for their moves and relying on them? But a teammate getting knocked out just as you were striking your opponent, expecting him to be occupied with the opponent and not notice you, and then being completely caught off guard, that is not any indication of your inferiority to the opponent. All of this has been confirmed in the novels by the way.

You know, that is basic common sense.

I'm aware of the struggles to coordinate they faced against Ventress… however they aren't of consequence. As is clear by their battering of Dooku during the novel and seamless coordination these sorts of things aren't an issue for the duo anymore. Circa Late TCW/ROTS we have multiple statements praising their teamwork.

As for MF I don't disagree Kenobi was stronger their than on the IH, however we're discussing IH Kenobi here, not MF Kenobi and you repeatedly argue he's still a peer to Dooku here, despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. As for his MF upgrade you'd have to demonstrate it's to such a degree he can beat somebody he was previously stomp material for. Hint: You probably can't.That's all for now though, I eagerly await your case, whatever differences of opinions we may have I always enjoy watching you debate and thinking you can present great arguments when the occasion presents itself.

And why was Kenobi caught off guard exactly? That's right, it's because Dooku successfully off balanced him and created an opening where he was fast enough to subdue Kenobi with the force,

Absolutely wrong. Read this

Let's go over the most obvious disadvantage of having teammates-Having to account for their moves and relying on them? But a teammate getting knocked out just as you were striking your opponent, expecting him to be occupied with the opponent and not notice you, and then being completely caught off guard, that is not any indication of your inferiority to the opponent. All of this has been confirmed in the novels by the way.

Let's use a little thing called "logic" here why don't we? Dooku was exhausted by the combined might of the Jedi, which included Skywalker, who by himself is already superior to Dooku.

Is this a concession? Because, as I said, Kenobi clearly says that MF Vader is better than IH Anakin. By directly comparing them.

Dooku was taken off guard by the duo who were previously messing around upping the tempo of their attack. He didn't have time to properly adapt, they were all over him as the text notes. Furthermore Dooku was under the impression Kenobi was using Ataru when trying to force him to jump, it's only after Kenobi didn't do anything more than block and parry that Dooku realised Kenobi was using Soresu. Essentially Dooku utilised tactics meant to deal with another form, not the one he was currently up against, allowing Kenobi to "stonewall" Dooku for about 5 strikes.

Not going to address the thing where Dooku doesn't adapt. That is an ongoing debate.

But no, Dooku still thinks that Kenobi's velocity is blinding. The fact that Kenobi is using a different form doesn't change that Kenobi's force augmented speed becomes too much for him. Forms and styles are techniques, Dooku outright said that his speed, that results from the force, is blinding. Note that he had already seen Kenobi's blinding speed before. He then sees a serious Anakin's speed. He then encounters Kenobi again, and realizes that he uses Soresu. At the same time, he still says that Kenobi's speed is blinding.

During their second exchange. So yeah, you move your blade clockwise or counterclockwise, the speed still stays the same.

The argument here is

"Dooku expected his blade to move clockwise, but it moved counterclockwise. That explains how Dooku thought that the blade moved too quickly."

That is such a juicy bait for smashing that I can't even begin. Like, I am jealous of Az, courtesy to him, I can't exactly tear into the argument currently due to his ongoing debate but he has the complete license to do so.

I shouldn't have to explain why this line of thinking has minimal weight. Like, we all know they are comparable in skill, so Dooku not being able to deal with form switchings and all that is a matter of technical skill. Not really relevant.

Also, lmfao at 5 strikes. That is neither indicated nor even remotely meant to be concluded. The number of ways that describe how Dooku got owned likely is more than 5 lmfao.

I'm aware of the struggles to coordinate they faced against Ventress… however they aren't of consequence. As is clear by their battering of Dooku during the novel and seamless coordination these sorts of things aren't an issue for the duo anymore. Circa Late TCW/ROTS we have multiple statements praising their teamwork.

They are stated to have "perfect" teamwork and are stated to "move as one" as of the TCW movie, so no. The same quotes are used to describe them, worse maybe.

As for MF I don't disagree Kenobi was stronger their than on the IH, however we're discussing IH Kenobi here, not MF Kenobi and you repeatedly argue he's still a peer to Dooku here, despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. As for his MF upgrade you'd have to demonstrate it's to such a degree he can beat somebody he was previously stomp material for. Hint: You probably can't.That's all for now though, I eagerly await your case, whatever differences of opinions we may have I always enjoy watching you debate and thinking you can present great arguments when the occasion presents itself.

The Invisible Hand Fight 228124001

Thanks for the confidence, but yeah, there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary other than hand waving or misconstruing important things.

As to Kenobi's growth, the idea that he battles evenly a guy who is stronger than a guy who is stronger than the Count is evidence enough. Read the logic that debaters use more cautiously

DS Anakin>Dooku~LS Anakin>>>Kenobi.

Seriously though when will this persistent BS stop? How on earth is Anakin hard pressing Dooku so Kenobi can sneak up behind him a disadvantage for him? Kenobi isn't worse at fighting in teams nor are any other excuses made for him true. Dooku was simply too quick and too skilled for Kenobi which is clearly shown when he ragdolls him while engaging Skywalker. Kenobi has nothing to be ashamed of. Being sub-Dooku isn't a bad thing.

Waiting for the day Dooku fans have actual arguments instead of "Hurr durr Kenobi had Anakin, Dooku fought alone, Dooku did such amazing thing while Kenobi had support".

To reiterate:

Let's go over the most obvious disadvantage of having teammates-Having to account for their moves and relying on them? But a teammate getting knocked out just as you were striking your opponent, expecting him to be occupied with the opponent and not notice you, and then being completely caught off guard, that is not any indication of your inferiority to the opponent. All of this has been confirmed in the novels by the way.

But no. All I get is "Kenobi had Anakin, Kenobi had Anakin..............................."

That or "Dooku created that opening on his own". Something one with the slightest common sense can understand is BS obviously.

Dooku too doesn't have anything to be ashamed of by being below Kenobi. Now that we have the twins' concession that LS Anakin>=Dooku, something that has been long coming, we can finally admit that MF Kenobi>Dooku, because MF Vader>LS Anakin is all but fact. Waiting on that concession so that we can end this.

Like seriously. Kenobi sneaks up on Dooku thinking that he is so occupied by Anakin that he can easily beat him then and there. Anakin however is repulsed by Dooku, who immediately turns and chokes Kenobi and then kicks Anakin across the room.

So how is Anakin getting repulsed by Dooku Kenobi's fault? How is Anakin not maintaining the onslaught on Dooku continuously and letting up for a small second to have Dooku repulse him Kenobi's mistake? How on earth does that even work in someone's mind?

Kenobi's mistake, his only mistake was relying completely on his apprentice instead of assuming that Dooku could gain the upper hand on him for a split second. That's not any indication of any kind of inferiority to Dooku. Like, let's get serious-this is logic at its most basic.

Heck, I could come up with more convincing arguments for Dooku.

@LOTL

Waiting for the day Dooku fans have actual arguments instead of "Hurr durr Kenobi had Anakin, Dooku fought alone, Dooku did such amazing thing while Kenobi had support".

I'm waiting for actual arguments as well tbh. And no conjecture that isn't supported by any sources doesn't count as an argument.

Let's go over the most obvious disadvantage of having teammates-Having to account for their moves and relying on them?

If Kenobi is relative to Dooku by himself he shouldn't have to rely on Anakin.

But a teammate getting knocked out just as you were striking your opponent, expecting him to be occupied with the opponent and not notice you, and then being completely caught off guard, that is not any indication of your inferiority to the opponent.

Caught off guard...? Kenobi is actively staring at Dooku and watches him perform a half turn and clashes blades with him before he gets ragdolled. How on earth is he caught off guard? Also, this is essentially based on conjecture anyway given no source states this despite your insistent claims that they do and we know Kenobi isn't retarded meaning he should expect Dooku to at least try and defend himself. I severely doubt he'd expect an easy kill given the last time he and Skywalker had the upper hand and were pressing Dooku ended with him getting thrown across the room with TK and ending up on his ass or knocked out depending on which source you use.

But no. All I get is "Kenobi had Anakin, Kenobi had Anakin..............................."

Because he did...?

That or "Dooku created that opening on his own".

Because he did...?

Something one with the slightest common sense can understand is BS obviously.

You lecturing others on common sense really makes my day. It's honestly sad to see this tbh. I hold you in pretty high esteem but you waste your talents arguing fruitless stances which aren't supported by logic and common sense and then proceed to lecture people that they are horribly wrong despite the fact that the most logical conclusion is literally staring you right in the face (that being Dooku is > Kenobi).

Dooku too doesn't have anything to be ashamed of by being below Kenobi.

So the logical conclusion is that when Kenobi ends up unconscious under a walkway in their fight he's superior to Dooku?

Now that we have the twins' concession that LS Anakin>=Dooku, something that has been long coming, we can finally admit that MF Kenobi>Dooku, because MF Vader>LS Anakin is all but fact.

What concession? So let's get this straight, you somehow managed to deduce from the tidal symbol that Dooku must be <= LS Anakin despite the tidal symbol only implying a degree of parity which doesn't at all suggest LS Anakin>Dooku given Dooku can easily be the better of the two? Jesus Christ.

Anyway, what proof is there that:

A) MF Vader=Kenobi.
B) MF Vader>LS Anakin.

Answer both of these questions and we might have a case for Kenobi. Until then the IH fight has the outcome of that fight decided.

I'm waiting for actual arguments as well tbh. And no conjecture that isn't supported by any sources doesn't count as an argument.

Conjecture that is outright stated by sources isn't conjecture.

If Kenobi is relative to Dooku by himself he shouldn't have to rely on Anakin.

Are you seriously stating this? It doesn't matter whether he should or shouldn't, he did. Read the Junior Novel.

No logic at all to this statement too. Why shouldn't Kenobi rely on Anakin? Can't they end the battle much more quickly? Can't they do it much more easily should they rely on each other? Why can't Kenobi be equal to Dooku, yet rely on another ally to battle Dooku? Why should he risk a long and risky duel with a Sith Lord he knows that can actually harm him and has a great chance to?

If everything had gone as Kenobi expected, the battle would have ended there. Why didn't it? Because Anakin was thrown off balance( see the movie) and Kenobi was expecting Dooku to be engaged with him. Not for Anakin to be thrown off balance and suddenly be choked.

Caught off guard...? Kenobi is actively staring at Dooku and watches him perform a half turn and clashes blades with him before he gets ragdolled. How on earth is he caught off guard? Also, this is essentially based on conjecture anyway given no source states this despite your insistent claims that they do and we know Kenobi isn't retarded meaning he should expect Dooku to at least try and defend himself. I severely doubt he'd expect an easy kill given the last time he and Skywalker had the upper hand and were pressing Dooku ended with him getting thrown across the room with TK and ending up on his ass or knocked out depending on which source you use.

Like seriously. Kenobi sneaks up on Dooku thinking that he is so occupied by Anakin that he can easily beat him then and there. Anakin however is repulsed by Dooku, who immediately turns and chokes Kenobi and then kicks Anakin across the room.

So how is Anakin getting repulsed by Dooku Kenobi's fault? How is Anakin not maintaining the onslaught on Dooku continuously and letting up for a small second to have Dooku repulse him Kenobi's mistake? How on earth does that even work in someone's mind?

Kenobi's mistake, his only mistake was relying completely on his apprentice instead of assuming that Dooku could gain the upper hand on him for a split second. That's not any indication of any kind of inferiority to Dooku. Like, let's get serious-this is logic at its most basic.

Heck, I could come up with more convincing arguments for Dooku.

Like seriously. Everything you need is there in the content. Read. Everything, from Kenobi literally being stated to be caught off guard, to Kenobi completely expecting Dooku to be battling Anakin and not suddenly engage him. Stop repeating things again and again and acting incredulous, along with said incredulity being supported by literally almost no argument of substance.

The best argument I have gotten from you is something I didn't address:

Kenobi is actively staring at Dooku and watches him perform a half turn and clashes blades with him before he gets ragdolled

Right. So Sidious is staring at Yoda and watches him raise his hand before being ragdolled by him. Would you say that Yoda was too fast for him? That he created an opening and then ragdolled him? Vice versa too.

No, you wouldn't. Because like Kenobi, SIdious was not expecting that force push from Yoda. Yoda too didn't expect that attack from Sidious. Kenobi didn't expect Dooku to repulse Anakin and then engage him. Notice how the situations are literally the same?

So let's jot this down:

Being tagged by someone, when not thinking that they would tag you, because you thought the situation would turn out different is not an indication that you are inferior to them.

Because he did...?

Because he didn't? Because this is the most laughable thing you guys have created yet?

Like seriously. Kenobi sneaks up on Dooku thinking that he is so occupied by Anakin that he can easily beat him then and there. Anakin however is repulsed by Dooku, who immediately turns and chokes Kenobi and then kicks Anakin across the room.

So how is Anakin getting repulsed by Dooku Kenobi's fault? How is Anakin not maintaining the onslaught on Dooku continuously and letting up for a small second to have Dooku repulse him Kenobi's mistake? How on earth does that even work in someone's mind?

Kenobi's mistake, his only mistake was relying completely on his apprentice instead of assuming that Dooku could gain the upper hand on him for a split second. That's not any indication of any kind of inferiority to Dooku. Like, let's get serious-this is logic at its most basic.

Heck, I could come up with more convincing arguments for Dooku.

The above are "facts". Your conclusion from them is that Dooku created the opening?

You need go go to kindergarten. Heck go to nursery because if that is the conclusion you draw from the serious of events, then either you are intellectually bankrupt or intellectually dishonest.

We can all agree that you are rather smart, hence the only conclusion I can draw is that you have an agenda here. Nobody cares, but the arguments you give must be good. So far they have not been good.

You lecturing others on common sense really makes my day. It's honestly sad to see this tbh. I hold you in pretty high esteem but you waste your talents arguing fruitless stances which aren't supported by logic and common sense and then proceed to lecture people that they are horribly wrong despite the fact that the most logical conclusion is literally staring you right in the face (that being Dooku is > Kenobi).

Cut down on the sarcasm, stop being incredulous and at least pretend to read the arguments. I have had to repeat myself so many times and this is becoming annoying. Not addressing the arguments given, glossing over them, or not even acknowledging them and then acting incredulous about something 80% of the forums or the SW community in general is not incredulous about at all, is not the sign of a good debater

So let's get this straight, you somehow managed to deduce from the tidal symbol that Dooku must be <= LS Anakin despite the tidal symbol only implying a degree of parity which doesn't at all suggest LS Anakin>Dooku given Dooku can easily be the better of the two? Jesus Christ.

Kids, this is why, just because you are incredulous, you are not right. But, you may be wrong.

You'll notice that I said the twins' meaning that both of you are clubbed and treated as a single unit. Next, both of you have more or less said that Anakin is around equal to Dooku, which is what the symbol means, obviously if anybody is better it is Anakin. Your earlier claims of Anakin and Kenobi being inferior to Dooku combined gone, obviously you have returned to the more sensible course. Hence, on the battle, if anybody showed they are superior, it is Anakin. Hence, Anakin>=Dooku. It certainly cannot be the reverse because that cannot be concluded from the source material, once you've moved beyond that earlier nonsense.

Even if it is, >= implies that both being equal is as much valid as one of them being superior. The symbol you used implies that both are more or less equal. Considering the bigger context, it doesn't really matter that I assumed that, in any case it rings true. Either case supports my example. Even if I made an error, the extent of the margins on the error is quite small, and overall negligible. Not only that, it doesn't matter to the argument that I am making.

See, this is where you think you know everything. Only you don't.

Anyway, what proof is there that:

A) MF Vader=Kenobi.
B) MF Vader>LS Anakin.

MF Vader=Kenobi is something I need not reiterate. Obi Wan says, both in the Junior Novel and the Movie Storybook that Anakin is stronger on Mustafar, and obviously he knows Anakin's power before. He wouldn't have seen Zonakin, but Zonakin is not even relevant to my argument. That and a shit ton of quotes that have MF Vader>Jedi Anakin, making it clear that the dark side gave him a boost in their battle, obviously making it clear that MF Vader>Any version of Anakin that didn't turn to the dark side.

I might have missed it, but can I see the MFV > IHA quote from Kenobi?

On the same blog where MF Kenobi is at his best.

Still waiting for LOTL to realise HP and I are not the same in viewpoints.

@LOTL: These two?:

When Padmé Amidala landed on Mustafar, Darth Vader ran to meet her. Full of his new powers, he urged her to join him and take over the galaxy.

DC77 wrote:LS Anakin~Dooku

This one?

@LOTL

I'll respond either next weekend or sometime during the week.