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on June 25th 2019, 7:24 pm
>mocks me in another thread for mixing words.
>can't even spell 'their'.
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on June 25th 2019, 7:28 pm
Off topic retardation focus on the thread at hand "Advanced Placement"
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on June 25th 2019, 7:29 pm
Can you guys do this dance somewhere else. It sure is entertaining but I'd rather not clog the thread.

Thanks.
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on July 3rd 2019, 10:22 am
@SithArchaeologist Given I gave you a 4 day extension on both of your posts I'm requesting that I be given 4 on this post and 4 on my following one.

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PeraltaEagle45
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on July 3rd 2019, 10:39 am
DC77 wrote:@SithArchaeologist Given I gave you a 4 day extension on both of your posts I'm requesting that I be given 4 on this post and 4 on my following one.

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Certainly, no problem.
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on July 6th 2019, 8:11 pm
If my post isn't finished within the next 4 hours it means I've fallen asleep while working on it.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  - Page 3 815462187
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on July 6th 2019, 8:14 pm
DC77 wrote:If my post isn't finished within the next 4 hours it means I've fallen asleep while working on it.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  - Page 3 815462187

Hopefully it's a better read than that.
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on July 6th 2019, 8:30 pm
I'll let the audience be the judge of that.

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on July 6th 2019, 10:23 pm
Rebuttal is done, unsure if it'll be up within the next few hours or not though, I still have source insertion and transferring to do which I may not have the energy for.
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on July 7th 2019, 1:14 am

Caedus V Kyp Durron


Let's examine your arguments, shall we?

Yes, let’s.

1) Mastery


First off, you spend a great deal of time confusing knowledge and mastery: they are not one and the same.

Elaborate. The vast majority of the quotes I posted make explicit note of Jacen’s “mastery” of the force in relation to other characters.

You use this to try and say Luke actually believed Jacen could do almost anything when this is clearly some wry banter. Luke doesn't know what Caedus has been up to and he knows a lot of things that surprise Luke. That's all Luke is acknowledging here.

Your assertions are unfounded. This is not “wry banter”, it’s Luke’s response to a genuine question, something you would know if you’d actually bothered to read the passage in the novel rather than making assumptions without backing them up…

This is one of your more obvious reaches. This isn't saying that Luke doesn't understand Caedus' abilities, it's saying that he doesn't know what Caedus knows. In other words, he isn't sure what Caedus knows and what he doesn't. Not that Caedus knows things Luke doesn't understand.

My relatively poor word choice aside whether Luke doesn’t “know” or doesn’t “understand” the full range of Jacen’s capabilities is irrelevant, the conclusion is the same. He hasn’t learned many of the techniques Jacen has and is blatantly inferior in his mastery of the more esoteric aspects of the force.

All of this being said, even if I were to agree with your viewpoint regarding these quotes and concede them both outright my overall argument would still stand. There was no rebuttal to my points regarding Jacen’s superior mastery to the majority of Luke’s council, nor was there any counter to Leia’s statement about Jacen possessing greater mastery than Luke, both of which place him above solidly above Kyp.

2) Specific Abilities


Next, you move on to Caedus' pain tolerance. I don't have much to counter here, as it's no great secret that Caedus has one of the highest pain tolerances in the mythos. However, I do want to point out this feat for Kyp:

This feat is nice but it does not demonstrate to me that Kyp can replicate any of the feats I posted for Jacen barring those of a similar nature (The tunnel feat for example) like tanking lightsaber strikes which is fundamentally different from tanking having your bones snapped.

All his strength? Lol. Kyp is far more powerful than Mara, whom Caedus was able to successfully fool in combat. If fooling Luke takes all of Caedus' strength, even if fooling Kyp takes somewhat less than that, he won't be able to pull it off while Kyp is actively attacking him, not unless he wants to get bisected.

You’re assuming parity between Jacen as of Bloodlines and as of Invincible, the two are entirely different beasts. Jacen per numerous quotes grows throughout the events of Legacy Of The Force.

I'm more powerful than any of you.

It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true. And, as history repeated itself because it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them except Luke. And he was growing closer to Luke's strength by the day.

-Bloodlines

For as Jacen Solo's dark powers grow stronger under the Dark Jedi Lumiya, and his influence over Ben Skywalker becomes more insidious, Luke's concern for his nephew forces him into a life-and-death struggle against his fiercest foe, and Han and Leia Solo find themselves at the mercy of their deadliest enemy . . . their son.

-Tempest (Novel Synopsis)

Furthermore the set of circumstances surrounding this feat are entirely different from those in this battle. Jacen not only has to cloak Lumiya but also hold the illusion for an extended period of time and simultaneously project “unconcerned calm”. Jacen has to do neither here, he simply has to create an illusion capable of deceiving Kyp for an instant (Which is all it’ll take to gut him) who is substantially less powerful than somebody Jacen fooled well before his prime (Luke). Jacen at his peak should have no issue fooling Luke for an instant, and by extension Kyp. My point regarding Mara wasn’t meant to prove Jacen can fool Kyp (Let the rest of my argument attest to that), just demonstrate that the ability is combat applicable even under highly unfavourable circumstances and that Jacen will use it if necessary.

3) Force Power


Now, to dispel the notion that Caedus is somehow "confirmed" to be Kyp's superior: let's not fool ourselves. We both know that character opinions are not infallible and can be overruled when there is clear evidence to the contrary. We have that here. Kyp is demonstrably far more powerful than Caedus. Unless you have an OOU source proclaiming his supremacy, we can safely ignore his accolades in this regard.

And SA did thus say:

Debaters like to wildly discredit in-universe sources of information whenever it is convenient. And it is true that not all in-universe accolades should be taken at face-value. However, choosing to simply dismiss them out of hand is also a poor method of conducting oneself in a debate. Holistic intent and careful examination of the source in question is important. Often, character quotes are simply a convenient and natural way for the author to impart information they want us, the readers, to have.

The “holistic intent” of Legacy Of The Force and Fate Of The Jedi seems fairly cut and dry to me. Not one, not two but three characters have professed Jacen to be superior to Durron, with all of the statements adding to the narrative and serving a clear purpose within the context of the books. These aren’t throwaway lines but valuable contributions to the storyline of the novels in question. You are going against what you wrote in your very first post because it suits your argument, not because of any logical train of thought. Allow me to present a rather simple question. Which of these do you think is more likely?

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him because he’s right and the council need to send Jaina because she’s their only hope.

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him but he’s actually wrong and the council don’t need to send Jaina, with Kyp being sufficient yet not one person ever advocates for sending Kyp to take down Jacen.

I could delve into the specifics of the other two but I feel you get my point. Every comparison we have between the two favours Jacen but you’d have me believe that it’s all bullshit and that your extremely sketchy scaling is more reliable? Give me a break.

Luke is famously difficult to scale off of as he consistently holds himself back, particularly after the events of Dark Empire. This, however, should not affect this comparison. Luke only ever used as much power as was necessary. Yet that power left him “exhausted to the point of collapse.” They both controlled similar amounts of power, yet Kyp was better able to handle its effects. This is a clear indication of superiority.

You haven’t explained to me why they controlled “similar amounts of power”. Them performing the same feat doesn’t make it so, in fact the difficulty with which they performed the feat should be the gauge of “how much power they commanded” not “how they handled the effects of the power”. Kyp obviously commanded greater power than Luke here, however it’s not of consequence. Luke barely ever taps into deeper reserves and only brings what’s necessary (Confirmed by Jaina, Jacen ect) so no scaling can be drawn from him. Besides you can’t use feats like these as proof of Kyp’s combat applicable power. Kyp has huge reserves of raw power which he rarely uses because he lacks the force of will to do so, with him only being able to access said power when he’s certain what he’s doing is right. So even if I were to concede your comparison it wouldn’t be indicative of the power Kyp can bring against Jacen, only the power locked inside him.

4) Combative Capability


This is one of the most commonly misinterpreted quotes I see. Luke is not saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, he's listing "expert duelists." It's similar to this quote from Maul:

This quote isn't saying that Koon and Windu are equals, it's saying that they would both test Maul. Likewise, your quote isn't saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, it's saying that Gaalan would be a challenge for both. Caedus being a superior duelist is far from confirmed fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJ6UZ0SkYY&feature=yout.ube&t=29s

Amusing. There’s a clear difference between Maul’s opinion on Jedi who he’d like to go up against, and who he’d perceive as a true test, and Luke comparing Gaalan to swordsman and saying how they stack up against him (Hence why he goes on to talk about Gaalan being too much for Cilghal straight after). Luke states Gaalan would be a “match” for either when comparing him to Kyp and Kyle, which means “a person or thing that is equal to another in quality or strength” (Source: Google), which caps Kyp out as Kyle level and comfortably beneath Jacen.

5) Conclusion


You have no pieces left on the board. Kyp obviously isn’t>DE Sids or>GM Luke in anything and even if he is it’s only raw power. Combatively speaking Kyp is:

>Lacking in mastery compared to Jacen.
>Lacking Jacen’s pain threshold.
>Unable to deal with Jacen’s illusions.
>Less powerful than Jacen in the force.
>A far weaker swordsman than Jacen.

That’s all folks.
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on July 7th 2019, 1:14 am
@SithArchaeologist Post is up.
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on July 7th 2019, 7:30 am
Solid post.
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on July 7th 2019, 11:11 am
Not bad. I'll try and have a response up this week.
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on July 7th 2019, 8:37 pm
@SithArchaeologist I probably won't be around to see it, gonna be on Holiday this week.
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on July 7th 2019, 9:13 pm
Good post DC, marked change in quality. Let’s hope you keep it up.
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on July 8th 2019, 7:56 am
Thanks MP.
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on July 17th 2019, 11:32 pm
My laptop was down for the past week but it shouldn't affect my ability to get my reply up within the next 5 days.
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on July 20th 2019, 8:00 pm
@SithArchaeologist Not sure if Ant told you or not (I asked him to infirm you of this development) but I'm gonna be away starting tomorrow until Saturday and tech issues aren't your fault so I'm granting you till I get back to finish.

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on July 26th 2019, 11:28 pm
I'm done playing games. Let's finish this.

Unique character count (not including headers, post quotes, or sourced quotes): 7,527/25,000

Rebuttal:

Part I: "Mastery"

DC77 wrote:Elaborate. The vast majority of the quotes I posted make explicit note of Jacen’s “mastery” of the force in relation to other characters.

You used the following 9 quotes to support Jacen's "overall mastery":

1:
Joiner King wrote:Jaina could not argue. During Jacen's five-year journey, she had felt him growing steadily stronger in the Force-but also more distant and isolated, like a hermit retreating to his mountaintop. At times, he had seemed to vanish into the Force entirely, and at other times she had sworn he was floating just above her shoulder.

2:
Bloodlines (Novel Synopsis) wrote:Jacen, now a complete master of the Force, has his own plans to bring order to the galaxy.

3:
Sacrifice wrote:Working in the world of those who couldn't use the Force, Jacen was falling into conniving and manipulating just like them, and while Lumiya didn't think that was a bad thing-all tools were valid to achieve the outcome-he was letting himself be bound by their rules. He was talking about timing. He had full mastery of the Force, but he seemed to enjoy using the limited tricks of ordinary people.

4:
Fury wrote:Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing-torturing-Luke's only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he'd once loved... the nephew who now commanded Master-level abilities in the Force, though he had not been, and never would be, elevated to the rank of Jedi Master.

5:
Exile wrote:"And," Omas continued, "he has demonstrated that he possesses skills and power that not even most confirmed Masters can match."

6:
Betrayal wrote:“Third, your specialized training in alternative philosophies of the Force makes you more versatile than many other Jedi-than some Jedi Masters, in fact-making it harder to stop you."

7:
Bloodlines wrote:"Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days."

8:
Betrayal wrote:"I know he hasn't studied every esoteric Force discipline you have," Leia said.

9:
Invincible wrote:Even Luke did not know the full of extent of Caedus's powers, and Jaina had no illusions about being her brother's equal in terms of Force strength.

9 quotes. And of those 9 quotes, only 4 of them refer to Jacen's mastery of the Force (quotes 2, 3, 4, and 5). Let me break the rest down for you. Quote 1 confirms Jacen grew during his exile and that his Force presence was acting weird as he did so. Quote 6 discusses his knowledge (alternative philosophies of the Force) and how that makes him more versatile than some. Quote 7 I will analyze below. Quote 8 is once again discussing knowledge, as it's Leia talking about the disciplines Jacen knows. Lastly, I will further analyze quote 9 a little later, but even taking it at your interpretation it's still talking about knowledge (what Jacen knows compared to what Luke knows).

So no, the "vast majority" of your quotes do not talk about Jacen's mastery in relation to other characters. In fact, less than half of them do. Knowledge and mastery are not the same thing at all. I will analyze some of these specific quotes as needed later on in my post.

DC77 wrote:Your assertions are unfounded. This is not “wry banter”, it’s Luke’s response to a genuine question, something you would know if you’d actually bothered to read the passage in the novel rather than making assumptions without backing them up…

The surrounding context has been conspicuously missing from this debate. Allow me to provide it:

Spoiler:

Bloodlines wrote:They nearly crash-landed. So what? It wasn't the first time the Millennium Falcon had come close to disaster, and it wouldn't be the last. Han tried to look nonchalant.

But it had still given him a few moments of white-knuckled terror, the kind he didn't like Leia to see but that she could probably feel anyway. They both sat in silence on the lowered ramp of the Falcon, savoring the light breeze. Small taken-for-granted things felt precious when you'd survived by the skin of your teeth.

The Falcon stood in one of the hundreds of open-air bays that flanked the landing strip, just another aging vessel. Her hull made the occasional click as the metal cooled, and an ominous pool of coolant was growing under the drive housing. Han had put a pail under the leak to collect it, and now he could hear the fluid running over the rim of the container. The pipework around the drive had sheared at the welds.

"Well," said Leia at last, staring into the distance. As ever, she looked as if nothing serious had happened, just a little tired and close to irritation. "That was character-forming."

"Don't suppose you could try Force-welding as well?"

"Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days."

You're about to wish I hadn't. As I suspected, the context only further confirms my interpretation. First of all, it was Leia who said it, not Luke. Second, I guess I have to explain exaggerational humor to you. Han and Leia are just past a near-death experience. Han makes a small joke about Leia using the Force to weld the ship back together. She responds in kind about how Jacen could continue to surprise them. They both feel very distant from their son. They barely know him anymore, and he's demonstrating a lot of unexpected things. The fact that you want to take this throwaway line, written as a bit of a joke, and with half a dozen qualifiers embedded inside, in reference to Force welding as a legitimate supporting argument.... What's that? Oh, that's your credibility. It's in worse shape than the Falcon.

DC77 wrote:My relatively poor word choice aside whether Luke doesn’t “know” or doesn’t “understand” the full range of Jacen’s capabilities is irrelevant, the conclusion is the same. He hasn’t learned many of the techniques Jacen has and is blatantly inferior in his mastery of the more esoteric aspects of the force.

You are continuing to completely misread this quote. The quote (quote 9) is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, NOT saying that Jacen knows techniques and powers Luke doesn't. What it IS saying is that Luke doesn't know what techniques and powers Jacen has and which ones he doesn't. There is a very important difference. Think of it like a menu at a restaurant. Before you go in and look at the menu, you're not sure what's on that menu. Does this mean everything on that menu is new to you? Of course not. It just means you don't know what's on it. Luke hasn't seen Caedus' menu, so to speak. He's not familiar with the full extent of what Caedus has added to that menu recently. So no, not talking about Jacen's mastery at all.

DC77 wrote:All of this being said, even if I were to agree with your viewpoint regarding these quotes and concede them both outright my overall argument would still stand. There was no rebuttal to my points regarding Jacen’s superior mastery to the majority of Luke’s council, nor was there any counter to Leia’s statement about Jacen possessing greater mastery than Luke, both of which place him above solidly above Kyp.

It's funny you think your quotes support those stances, lol. Being superior in mastery to "the majority" of Luke's council means nothing when Kyp is on that Council and could easily be among the minority that Jacen is inferior to. Additionally, none of your quotes, not one, suggests that Caedus has superior mastery to Luke Skywalker. Your quote 8 states that Jacen has more esoteric Force knowledge than Luke. Which is, once again, not the same thing as mastery. Stop trying to pass them off as one and the same, they are not. Even IF I accept your interpretation of that quote, it again means little. All that "superior knowledge and mastery" meant nothing when all of Caedus' strength couldn't even make Luke move a finger.

So, to summarize: over half your quotes don't say what you want them to. Caedus MIGHT be more knowledgeable and masterful, but it won't matter against someone so vastly more powerful, such as Kyp.

Part II: Specific Abilities

DC77 wrote:This feat is nice but it does not demonstrate to me that Kyp can replicate any of the feats I posted for Jacen barring those of a similar nature (The tunnel feat for example) like tanking lightsaber strikes which is fundamentally different from tanking having your bones snapped.

The nature of the injuries are different, yes, but the way the Force user handle that pain is not "fundamentally different." The difference between your leg being broken in 3 places and one of your kidneys being stabbed through is not significant. Both will equally affect your ability to stand on your feet and fight. Because lightsabers cauterize their own wounds, the main impact of a lightsaber stab is organ damage. And might I draw your attention back to part of Kyp's feat as quoted earlier (emphasis mine):

Jedi Academy III: Champions of the Force wrote:Somehow Kyp had crammed himself inside the small volume of the message cylinder, a vessel barely large enough to hold a child. But Kyp had managed to crush his legs, fold his arms until the bones snapped, pressed down on his rib cage until his ribs cracked, compacting himself.

Crushing your rib cage will most certainly affect the organs underneath. Regardless, the feats are not all that different and demonstrate similar levels of pain tolerance.

DC77 wrote:You’re assuming parity between Jacen as of Bloodlines and as of Invincible, the two are entirely different beasts. Jacen per numerous quotes grows throughout the events of Legacy Of The Force.

Furthermore the set of circumstances surrounding this feat are entirely different from those in this battle. Jacen not only has to cloak Lumiya but also hold the illusion for an extended period of time and simultaneously project “unconcerned calm”. Jacen has to do neither here, he simply has to create an illusion capable of deceiving Kyp for an instant (Which is all it’ll take to gut him) who is substantially less powerful than somebody Jacen fooled well before his prime (Luke). Jacen at his peak should have no issue fooling Luke for an instant, and by extension Kyp. My point regarding Mara wasn’t meant to prove Jacen can fool Kyp (Let the rest of my argument attest to that), just demonstrate that the ability is combat applicable even under highly unfavourable circumstances and that Jacen will use it if necessary.

All right. So how much did Caedus grow? Is that quantifiable in any way? You say that Kyp is "substantially less powerful" than Luke. Prove it. You say that prime Jacen should have "no issue" fooling Luke. Prove it. You've made quite a few completely unsubstantiated claims in this paragraph. Prove them. Prime Jacen has never tried to fool anyone near Kyp's ballpark with an illusion. You have nothing to support these claims. Come back when you do.

Part III: Force Power

I'll begin my addressing these seemingly contradictory statements of mine. Here's my comment in my first post:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Debaters like to wildly discredit in-universe sources of information whenever it is convenient. And it is true that not all in-universe accolades should be taken at face-value. However, choosing to simply dismiss them out of hand is also a poor method of conducting oneself in a debate. Holistic intent and careful examination of the source in question is important. Often, character quotes are simply a convenient and natural way for the author to impart information they want us, the readers, to have.

And here is my addendum in post 2:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Now, to dispel the notion that Caedus is somehow "confirmed" to be Kyp's superior: let's not fool ourselves. We both know that character opinions are not infallible and can be overruled when there is clear evidence to the contrary. We have that here. Kyp is demonstrably far more powerful than Caedus. Unless you have an OOU source proclaiming his supremacy, we can safely ignore his accolades in this regard.

Despite your attempt at a "gotcha!" moment, these statements do not contradict each other. I have remained perfectly consistent. In my first post, I was legitimizing character quotes in general. I see a lot of debaters toss aside any character quotes without second thought whenever it is convenient. In my second post, I was discussing when we can ignore character quotes. I believe I made that condition quite clear in the original post: "when there is clear evidence to the contrary." In terms of Kyp's supremacy over mid-Vong War Luke, we have additional information that corroborates Kyp's assessment. My argument against Caedus' quotes always has been, and will remain, that the mountain of evidence we have indicating Kyp's superiority outweighs those quotes for Caedus. And, since they are not OOU statements, they are not binding. That is my argument. Not that we use character quotes only when it suits me. I'm still incorporating all the important factors as mentioned before.

DC77 wrote:The “holistic intent” of Legacy Of The Force and Fate Of The Jedi seems fairly cut and dry to me. Not one, not two but three characters have professed Jacen to be superior to Durron, with all of the statements adding to the narrative and serving a clear purpose within the context of the books. These aren’t throwaway lines but valuable contributions to the storyline of the novels in question. You are going against what you wrote in your very first post because it suits your argument, not because of any logical train of thought. Allow me to present a rather simple question. Which of these do you think is more likely?

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him because he’s right and the council need to send Jaina because she’s their only hope.

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him but he’s actually wrong and the council don’t need to send Jaina, with Kyp being sufficient yet not one person ever advocates for sending Kyp to take down Jacen.

I could delve into the specifics of the other two but I feel you get my point. Every comparison we have between the two favours Jacen but you’d have me believe that it’s all bullshit and that your extremely sketchy scaling is more reliable? Give me a break.

Let me propose a third scenario:

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him because they still don't know how powerful Jacen really is and Luke is the only one they can be sure would defeat him. They send Jaina because of her connection to her twin brother.

My "extremely sketchy scaling" has yet to be countered at all and it places Kyp vastly beyond Jacen. Thus, we have that "evidence to the contrary" necessary to overrule character quotes. Not only that, but Kyp comes out on top of every single feat comparison we can come up with, which I will get to later. That's two out of three comparisons which Kyp takes home. Sufficient evidence.

DC77 wrote:You haven’t explained to me why they controlled “similar amounts of power”. Them performing the same feat doesn’t make it so, in fact the difficulty with which they performed the feat should be the gauge of “how much power they commanded” not “how they handled the effects of the power”. Kyp obviously commanded greater power than Luke here, however it’s not of consequence. Luke barely ever taps into deeper reserves and only brings what’s necessary (Confirmed by Jaina, Jacen ect) so no scaling can be drawn from him. Besides you can’t use feats like these as proof of Kyp’s combat applicable power. Kyp has huge reserves of raw power which he rarely uses because he lacks the force of will to do so, with him only being able to access said power when he’s certain what he’s doing is right. So even if I were to concede your comparison it wouldn’t be indicative of the power Kyp can bring against Jacen, only the power locked inside him.

Oh finally, you've addressed the main crux of my argument. Except, you didn't say anything that I didn't counter preemptively in my opener. Recall:

SithArchaeologist wrote:Luke is famously difficult to scale off of as he consistently holds himself back, particularly after the events of Dark Empire. This, however, should not affect this comparison. Luke only ever used as much power as was necessary. Yet that power left him “exhausted to the point of collapse.” They both controlled similar amounts of power, yet Kyp was better able to handle its effects. This is a clear indication of superiority.

Allow me to elaborate. As you yourself have agreed, Kyp handled more power than Luke, and he handled that power more effectively. Even if Luke could have brought more power to bear for his Dovin Basal feat, it doesn't matter: Kyp handled the physical toll of using that amount of power far better. This is why how they handled the affects of the power is important. If Kyp used more power, and it took less of a physical toll on his body, why wouldn't that indicate superiority? It means he can channel more power in a fight than Luke can. It means his actualized power is higher because again, the power he can actively channel at once is higher. My scaling stands.

Oh, and I'd love for you to try and prove that Kyp "lacks the force of will" to use much of his raw power. Go ahead, try.

Part IV: Combative Capability

DC77 wrote:Amusing. There’s a clear difference between Maul’s opinion on Jedi who he’d like to go up against, and who he’d perceive as a true test, and Luke comparing Gaalan to swordsman and saying how they stack up against him (Hence why he goes on to talk about Gaalan being too much for Cilghal straight after). Luke states Gaalan would be a “match” for either when comparing him to Kyp and Kyle, which means “a person or thing that is equal to another in quality or strength” (Source: Google), which caps Kyp out as Kyle level and comfortably beneath Jacen.

Here's the quote in question once again:

Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duellist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.

The phrasing in this quote is key. "He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn." Luke is estimating that Gaalan might have been a match for an "expert swordsmaster." He then lists Kyp and Kyle as examples of expert swordsmasters. The language is in this quote is not nearly as binding you're making it out to be. Not only is there a massive qualifier sitting right in the middle of it, but it doesn't even require Kyp and Kyle to be on the same level as duelists for the quote to make sense. Luke is making a rough estimation of Gaalan's skill mid-fight and he's throwing out names that Gaalan might be skilled enough to match. Nothing more.

Kyp Durron's Best Feats

In this section I will list a few of Durron's big feats, to fully demonstrate that even a pure feat-to-feat comparison renders Caedus woefully under-qualified for this fight. Of course, the Dovin Basal feat is enough on its own, but I have plenty of unused characters for this, my final post (for all intents and purposes, anyway).

Star by Star wrote:The corvette lashed out with plasma cannons and magma missiles, and Anakin’s display filled with streaks of red energy. Nothing wrong with Big Eye’s sensor package. Kyp had destroyed the shuttle … how? The Force? It didn’t seem possible. Only the most powerful Jedi could use it that way.

Dark Journey wrote:Once before, Kyp had seized a ship and dragged it out of the firerce heart of a gas giant. Now he reached out with the Force and took hold of the dead freighter. It shot forward with astonishing ease, moving steadily through the vacuum of space toward the shielded coralskippers.

Exile wrote:He glanced to the left, where the nearby Jedi Temple was clearly visible just past the Jade Shadow's stern. "Unless you'd like to save your engines-I can just pick you up and set you down over there." He reached out with his hand, palm up, an overly dramatic gesture, and the Jade Shadow vibrated for a moment, moving under the pressure he exerted with the Force.

That was fun.

Conclusion:

I still have plenty of pieces on the board, my friend. Kyp is far more powerful, confirmed by both strong scaling chains and a feat comparison. Caedus has nothing significant on Kyp in terms of mastery or knowledge. He's got nothing credible on Kyp for dueling either. So we're left with a vastly more powerful Kyp facing a perhaps slightly more skilled Caedus. Who would you take in that fight?

Q.E.D.
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on July 27th 2019, 3:48 pm
I'm going to have to work details out with the judges on discord regarding timing and such. I have a lot of personal shit going on right now. If I feel up to the task I'll respond, if not SA can proceed to the following round.

OT-Excellent post bro, by far your strongest in this debate.

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MasterCilghal
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on July 27th 2019, 7:04 pm
I’m impressed by this post, ngl.
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on July 27th 2019, 7:05 pm
Good post.
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on July 27th 2019, 7:41 pm
@SithArchaeologist I'd like to make a request, that I be granted an extended period of time to finish my post. You don't have to accept this and if you don't I'll concede because my life is far to hectic with issues to finish this in two weeks.
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on July 27th 2019, 11:17 pm
DC77 wrote:@SithArchaeologist I'd like to make a request, that I be granted an extended period of time to finish my post. You don't have to accept this and if you don't I'll concede because my life is far to hectic with issues to finish this in two weeks.

Yeah of course. I'd hate to win by default and given I only have a quick little finisher after your next post, there's no reason not to grant it to you. I don't want to hold up the tournament overall, but unless you're talking several months, that shouldn't be an issue.
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on August 6th 2019, 1:03 am
My post is pretty much complete so it should be on time. I'm gonna spend the next week or so fine tuning it though.
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