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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on October 2nd 2019, 11:05 am
Is somebody else gonna vote or are Harr and Elm gonna try to convince each other over Discord?
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  - Page 6 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on October 3rd 2019, 1:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one (I hope?)

So, without unnecessary beginnings, let’s go straight to the point. My opinion is based purely on what’s written here, without personal knowledge included. All that matters is purely what I can see here, my knowledge is considered nonexistent, but I retain my general understanding of fiction writing, basics of what Star Wars is about and simplest aspects of the universe, and, obviously, my intellectual ability. Let’s roll :>




The first post by SA: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#5254 is generally, as openers do, not leaving much as far as judgement goes. It’s a solid opener. Banite scaling is a choice that’s been done to death, which I guess makes it easy to use, but it’s not the milestone of the post. It’s the fourth, ending part, which is an extremely basic, solid argument, based on hard facts. It’s really good. A good opening, solid beginning, but obviously, what matters, is how it holds up later.






The second post by DC77 is obviously where the real fun begins. http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#5575

The part about Jacen’s Force mastery and versatility is impressive, but it doesn’t really add much at this point. It does nothing to negate things in SA’s opener, it does talk about mastery, versatility, and knowledge when read carefully by a neutral reader. It says a lot about Jacen’s superiority to various Masters, but doesn’t really address anything about Kyp. At this point, it looks just as something to be used later, but not really as of this point.

Then we have DC going into Jacen’s insane pain tolerance and him being a nearly unstoppable tank. We have solid material here that Jacen’s wounds and stamina won’t effectively matter - if he’s not killed, he’s not stopped. It obviously adds a lot of merit, and is an extremely good point from the perspective of a random person. Normal people in real world, people in 99% of the fictional universes drop down in combat capacity as the combat progresses and they get bruised and weakened, it’s just basic rule of the world. Meanwhile what we have here demonstrates that Caedus will just require far more to put down than Kyp, at least without anything regarding endurance coming from SA. A really solid point, albeit it could have been described more. Don’t get me wrong - it’s already pretty okay, but I would have loved to hear more stuff about how Jacen’s endurance would affect the fight, some more examples, a greater vision of its effect on the fight.

Illusions part is looking really neat. Simple examples of an ability that clearly works against opponents of high level, giving DC a really great card up his sleeve, a clearcut + for Caedus no matter what.

The third header of DC’s post is solid. It’s character opinions, but as a normie, I have no reason to believe they’re wrong. I know people’s opinions are a very loose source of information, but I also know that trained Jedi Knights and Masters will have good understanding of the abilities they’ve trained in their entire life and their opinions are important. Only the quote with Leia musing about Jacen’s potential for imprisonment is rather meh - all the reader gets from it is that Jacen is > Raynar, who has basically no role in this thread so far.

Fourth part is also good. Simple, straight up comparison.

At this point I can see Jacen is a superior combatant, has great cards up his sleeve - endurance and illussions - and can be thought of to be comparable to Kyp and second to Luke. However, what I’m still left with, is SA blatantly claiming Kyp has demonstrated power on Luke’s level, whereas Jacen is held clearly inferior to Luke in power without any contest. DC suggests that Jacen is on Kyp’s level, but what I can see here is the mastery, versatility and knowledge, not really the power output. About power output, I can still see the blunt dovin basal comparison as far more solid, than rather vague statements from the characters themselves. I can’t see the proof for DC77’s third claim in the summary.

I am left totally convinced Caedus is the better combatant - DC has proof that Kyp and Kyle are somewhere within some general league, and I can see insane superiority Caedus has over Kyle.

I can still see Kyp as just more powerful, whereas having Caedus as the superior duelist. As a reader, I’m confused who wins. I want one simple thing from both of you - why is Kyp’s power/Caedus’s saber skill going to win the day. I am left with SA reigning over the power aspect, and DC77 over the combat. I am left to scratch my head and muse which is one is more important. So far, I need more content.

By the way - other people have made fun of the novel blurb usage. I totally do not care, if a source is deemed bad, the opponent has to say why. I take everything as legit unless what I’m presented with just doesn’t match up (like the power part) as I read and analyse it.





Third post, now SA’s rebuttal. I’m really interested after being left in the shadows. http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p25-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#7058

“You use this to try and say Luke actually believed Jacen could do almost anything when this is clearly some wry banter. Luke doesn't know what Caedus has been up to and he knows a lot of things that surprise Luke. That's all Luke is acknowledging here.” - this part is good, it really fits the general tone of the quote and is a good point that it should be taken carefully.

“This is one of your more obvious reaches. This isn't saying that Luke doesn't understand Caedus' abilities, it's saying that he doesn't know what Caedus knows. In other words, he isn't sure what Caedus knows and what he doesn't. Not that Caedus knows things Luke doesn't understand.” - another solid point.

However, I still see lots of good quotes about “mastery”, and that looks way more solid and useful than the other things. However, the dovin basal stuff just still remains far superior. I can just see that Jacen may not be out of Kyp’s league - that’s all.

We then have a good proof that Kyp has good durability. Something that doesn’t match Jacen - Jacen just has far too much content of too many, various types of damage he has endured. I can see Kyp is tough as hell too, but I still see Jacen as far superior just with the sheer amount of content and various types of damage, also the fact that we’ve seen Jacen handling it in combat, not just survival (OOC: I would be insanely angry if this part about Kyp wasn’t used, lol).

Simple, but good response about the illussions.

The comparison to other quote, from the Maul book, is really good. Good idea on throwing shade of that quote, but I really wanted to see here was just something more specific, I wanted precision. I wanted to hear an idea that the quote literally means that Gaalan could be a challenge to Kyp or Kyle, meaning beating one in a challenging fight, and losing to the other in a challenging fight, what essentially means a rather broad league. It’s a thing I have to add in my head - and it’s not good when I fill in the stuff in my head.

At this point, however, I solidly see Kyp as superior in the Force, no contest at this point. I also see that how Kyle matches up to Kyp is a contested notion. I have way more solid material from SA that hasn’t been disputed than from DC. What I still didn’t get, is how exactly do you think Kyp’s superior power wins the day. How do the skills add up? What’s more important? Right now I can just judge Kyp is > Caedus because the Force superiority seems way more solid and hard, than saber superiority. That’s it.






Fourth post coming up, DC’s one: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p50-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#8287 and now I can see him going uphill, but battle is far from decided. I’m really interested in what will happen now, at the more heated point.

Good, expected point on the quotes related to mastery. Bad choice on this part: “Your assertions are unfounded. This is not “wry banter”, it’s Luke’s response to a genuine question, something you would know if you’d actually bothered to read the passage in the novel rather than making assumptions without backing them up…” - the tone of the quote from a reader accustomed to dialogue writing had a suggestion itself. I still don’t see the entire passage anywhere, so I’ll just have to go with what I can see, and here, the tone of the quote seems to be in favor of SA’s inerpretation. Sad.

DC is then solidly right - no real addression about Caedus’s mastery. Despite SA having more solid stuff about the Force and Kyp just still looking superior, it’s true, and it lowers the edge I can see in that area, but it’s still really high. If DC addressed more about how he sees what “mastery” means in relation to power, how it affects the fight etc. - I would easily see these two as way closer. It honestly also goes into the core problem with both of the debaters here. You guys make some points - Caedus being far more masterful, Kyp being more powerful, but you forget to tell what kind of role it plays. DC is less guilty of that so far - he has real ideas on how Jacen’s endurance and mind tricks will affect the fight. But here, about Jacen’s mastery, I just know now Jacen is superior to most masters, comparable to Luke, probably to Kyp as well, but what is mastery, what is power? Does mastery equal just the power? Is it the finesse? And from SA - okay, Kyp is more powerful, but so what, if in real combat Caedus demolishes people that are at worst somewhere on a slightly similar level? You guys often win a lot about specific facet of your character’s skillset, but don’t really give me a clue how much it matters. It shows here. I am convinced Caedus reaches Kyp’s level in mastery of the Force, but I’m not sure how it relates to Kyp just demonstrating way greater actual power output. If I got convinced how it translates to actual power output, I would be sold, really. This is the main problem I see here so far, from both of you.

Then we have good parts demonstrating Jacen growing across the series. It really makes SA’s case more difficult to defend. As a reader I will now constantly see a shade over any superiority over Solo’s earlier showings. Goodcall.

And then finally a real bingo. Just overall good analysis of how to rate the power showing from Kyp vs. the dovin basal. It’s just well based, logical, B derived from A precisely, it’s just a good passage. It  finally attacks the main position in a good fashion. It finally drops down the importance of Kyp’s superior power and even the odds after lots of time.

I’m not really convinced by the part about Gaalan quote. As a careful reader, knowing the prose, I just know that these things aren’t clearcut “=” and preciseful powerlevels, I doubt it’s a total equality as in the dictionary, I just know things aren’t written this way. I would especially know it if I was a SW reader, but as far as judging goes, I just use the general understanding of writing.

Either way, DC now solidly has the edge. I can still see Caedus as the better combatant. I see Kyle and Kyp as loosely the same combative league, maybe a full level apart, but I can also see Caedus tooling Kyle when hindered and with Kyle having backup - that’s even more than a full good level of difference. I do not have any doubt Solo is easily the greater combatant without a shadow of doubt. I still see Kyp as more powerful, but now I have an uncontested, well written idea on why it matters little. DC77 has the edge by the end.







This sudden switch makes me look forward for the response even more. SA's post: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p50-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#9665

SA totally stomps right now. Mistaking who said which dialogue is a huge loss for DC77, and SA really batters at how his adversary read the 9th quote just plainly wrong. Pure language and reading is on SA’s side, and it really, really makes him look more solid. From the debating standpoint, the one who can read things more carefully and precisely, just wins, that’s about it. Nothing demonstrates superiority better than understanding text more. Rest of the stuff is also solid. Very good.

At first, I’m utterly unconvinced by the pain endurance part. I just need basic imagination and life experience to know that the organ’s damage is infinitely more painful and destructive for the simplest body functions than absolute destruction of a limb. Then I’m seeing a good point on the ribs indeed affecting the organs definitely, although obviously not to such an extent as direct cut by the goddamn lightsaber.

Good job pushing against Jacen’s development through LOTF. Makes it look more sketchy and uncertain, which is the obvious response.

Then we have a lot of talk about the quotes, lots of questions asked, but overall, nothing really impactful for how I can see things here, so I won’t annoy you with further analysis, since it’s not needed here. It’s more like cards tossed at DC77 - we will find out what they’re worth only based on the response. They’re basic ideas that can hardly have holes in them on their own.

Then I finally see more stuff regarding the Gaalan quote, more interpretation, more solid, logic-based stuff to denounce that quote. Good stuff.

Some nice additional feats for Kyp, if not matched, they definitely help the case.

Overall, I’m once again convinced the lightsaber part is in favor of Caedus, but Force seems more solidly in favor of Kyp and way more expanded on than what the enemy has in stock. Also lots of very strong, good rebutalls, just clear superiority and advantage in sheer rhetorics and well pointed ideas, extremely good defusions on the opposing arguments. Really solid.





Post nr. 6: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p75-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#12937

YES. This is the stuff I’ve been waiting for. What’s the importance of Force power, how can the fight go, what really do these specific edges mean. Proper scenarios, examples of how the fights go in Star Wars, wonderful usage of example on how hard it is for the direct Force attacks to truly affect the fight. This is what I’ve been waiting for, what I’ve been missing as a reader the entire time.

Then good rebuttal on the endurance, but at this point, we’re just digging deeper and deeper in what’s pretty clear for the reader. Sometimes things are just done to death already, and this is one of those points. I hardly see any change in the matter, right now every good response just slightly tilts the advantage. Both sides have done this subject to death.

Good part about Jacen’s growth - although I would have loved to see some slight attempt to visualise the power difference. Some vague one, some basic comparison to perhaps other characters in the mythos that have also went through some large development. Maybe to some other Skywalker, then reference to their lineage. Whatever. I wanted slightly more here.

Then the Force power.

“I never claimed the two statements themselves were inherently contradictory, I was merely pointing out that you’ve decided to "toss aside" the quotes proclaiming Jacen to be superior to Durron without first examining the "holistic intent" of the statements in question, something you deemed to be necessary when interpreting such accolades, and in itself is fairly clear cut. I very much doubt the writers of LOTF sat down, created these narrative plot points and said to each other “This is all bullshit to serve the story, and is actually wrong”. Your only grounds for dismissal is "contradictory evidence”, that, as I’ll soon explain, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in the slightest. My only remaining question is: Do you think the judges will favour Kyp’s assessment and a comparison of power that by its very nature can be interpreted in numerous ways over Luke, Jacen, Leia and the clear narrative intent of LOTF? Mull over that for a while.” - very good part, precision of interpretation, this is the kind of thing that’s the most convincing one.

“This scenario is not only implausible, but outright impossible. Several of the members present are intimately familiar with Jacen’s power level and skill set, and beyond that have actually engaged him head to head. I don’t know how you reached the conclusion the council don’t have the necessary data to correctly assess Jacen’s capabilities but I want to make one thing clear: It is flat out wrong.” - this is just very well said, well done on this point.

Then we have a very nice description of DC77 sees the TK feat comparison. It could have been an incredible stomp against the SA, but really lacked details and sophistication - I will address that in the final verdict, as we’re reaching the conclusion soon.

Part 4 seems okay, but it honestly does little to change my mind on the things already said. Right now the clear consensus is - these guys are somewhere in the same league, maybe closer, maybe further, but Caedus seems to be clearly superior to this league as a whole.

Summary is, well, just a summary.




Post nr. 7, SA’s final words: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p75-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#17582

This is just a good recap. I feel SA has just did what he should - he capitalized on all the things he had an advantage in so far, he summarized them pretty well, focused on rounding up everything. The only part that’s pretty unconvincing for me is the summary about the pain endurance. The subject, done to death already, has left me with a completely clear vision of Caedus being easily on a higher level in that. However, very good point on attacking the hypothetical example with the wording being “both players were equally skilled” - it was a thorn in the eyes from the beginning, it was making the reader obviously see DC77 was overexaggerating the phrasing greatly. I would be really disappointed if it wasn’t addressed, ngl.

Other than that, just good summary.





Post nr. 8, and DC’s last: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t241p100-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-caedus-dc77-vs-kyp-durron-sitharchaeologist#17746

This is definitely a good summary. Unlike SA’s one, it has no real flaws, but also not many things convincing me. A good recap, that’s all.






So... The verdict. Let’s go through the singular points first.

Kyp’s Force power - I believe SA managed to create a way stronger case here. DC left me with doubts, with the greatest one being how little is direct Force power going to matter in a combat. It was truly a cementing point, and what’s surprising is that SA offered little to defeat that notion. That idea stood unchallenged, well built, referencing the sole core of Star Wars itself, and really brought down this point really hard. On the other hand, while DC managed to offer lots of stuff to establish Caedus as within the ballpark of the Council’s top, and with insane mastery, he did little to convince me that Caedus holds more power in itself. He made the gap look less wide, and most importantly, he truly diminished the importance of this part, but even with the good idea regarding Luke and Kyp’s attitude concerning the Force usage in the end, it still remained clear that Kyp is the more powerful one, with way more solid material. DC’s ideas were good - I’m sad to see they weren’t more developed. DC could have focused more on the specific stipulations, provide more detailed analysis. The notion ended up more as an unpolished idea, than a fully detailed conclusion. If it wasn’t for a brilliant idea to describe how Force defense works in DC’s mind, SA would easily push it very hard that Durron is just too powerful. What didn’t help DC was that SA posted other feats, and we never saw an example of Caedus operating on the same levels. As it stands, Kyp >> Caedus in Force power even though parity exists, as far as the conclusions reached here go. But also - the importance of this edge was purely shattered by DC. Both sides have went full offense in here with 0 defense, lol.

Jacen’s illussions - a great point, but not really capitalized on. If DC spent a little more time focusing on how the tiniest distraction for half a second equals death in a combat situation, it wouldn’t have hurt, but was still a really good point, greatly in DC’s favor.

Jacen’s endurance - the two of you have fought on this point for very long, and both of you quickly ran out of solid material and went into loose thinking and rebuttal of said loose thinking. Responses were good, but right after the solid material you went into rather random thoughts and made it something barely worth the attention it was given, imo. It stood well on DC’s side, because his material was stronger and more varied.

Jacen’s superiority to councilors, and other quotes - yes, it was just nowhere established where exactly Kyp stands here, and the fact that Luke is the only certain one to kill him means just that. You can be superior to someone to a great degree and win 99/100, and still have a risk of falling this one round due to sheer randomness of fighting. SW is clearly not Dragonball shit with powerlevels counters even for a normie.

Lightsaber combat - SA managed to somewhat lower this thing by very good claims about the Gaalan quote. It makes the reader understand that, like Elm said, Gaalan can be 75, Kyle 50 and Kyp 100, but the fight against Kyle was nowhere disputed and I was just left with what I could see - hindered Caedus, fighting against Kyle&team, tooled Kyle hard and is on a completely different league, no matter if we go with the Kyle=50;Gaalan=70;Kyp=100 route. It really cemented this debate, imo.

In the end, I am left with Caedus being established as the easily superior combatant. At the same time, I am totally convinced that Kyp is just clearly more powerful. DC convinces me that they are only remotely close, with nothing more than that. I am also convinced Caedus has tons of knowledge and vague mastery higher than Kyp, but nothing seems to imply it really matters. I am left with the Kyp>Luke feat being rather uncertain, but the event itself still being a fact; DC put some shadow over it, but didn’t really follow through with it. I can also see Force power of Kyp mattering less than Caedus’s lightsaber combat - if not for that, I would go with Kyp.

In the end Caedus is demonstrated superior. DC77 wins.





There were tons of places where I just screamed internally for both of you to follow through with really good ideas. Those moments have been mostly already described by me, and I hope they will help you with further debates, I’ve tried to explain them properly without making this post even longer. There are some more though, now that I can go with my personal knowledge.

SithArcheologist - if you’ve put more content about how Luke absolutely shits on Caedus, with the dovin basal feat being left still in good condition after the debate (you know what I mean, lol), I would buy Kyp > Caedus despite DC incredibly lowering the value of Force power. If you focused more on Luke >>> Caedus by insane leagues, the dovin basal part, thanks to half-finished rebuttal from DC, would win the day IMO. It would be just too blatant. You’ve given up on the Kyle vs. Caedus fight, you accepted it in its entirety, while it could have been really, really contested. You’ve cemented the idea of 50-75-100 (look above), but the fight left the reader completely under the impression that Caedus just takes feces on this league as a whole. It could have been you to give the reader that impression! All you needed was more Luke stuff. It would be really hard to demonstrate that Caedus can do anything, no matter the importance of Force power, to the guy who has shown equality to the person that shits on Caedus so hard. It would be as simple and blatant as the Kyle vs. Caedus fight.

As for DC, I feel it has already been established what he could have done better.

Now, for both of you. You both fought a great fight. DC had more letdowns, he left more good stuff unfinished, SA had far less stumbles, and honestly performed better as far as singular rebuttals go, but the overall image and construction of the fight ended in DC’s favor despite that. DC had less wasted opportunities, but also far more half-assed ones.

It was a really fun debate to read, and you have both fought really hard. I hope the points I made can aid you in further debates, and I hope I wasn’t too harsh on you. Cheers!
DarthAnt66
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on October 3rd 2019, 4:31 pm
THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. THE VICTOR, @DC77 (Reborn), WILL ADVANCE TO THE NEXT ROUND.

Congratulations to both contestants for a great debate. This thread will remain open so members can give their thoughts and critiques. 
Azronger
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on October 3rd 2019, 5:07 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) This is exactly why wallowing in self-pity on Discord does you no favors and doesn't reflect reality. Congratulations on your victory. Proud of you.
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on October 3rd 2019, 5:14 pm
Thanks @Azronger.
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on October 3rd 2019, 11:36 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) Well done.
MasterCilghal
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on October 4th 2019, 7:47 am
I agree with @Azronger. You have told me several times in PMS on Discord that you were not confident in a victory despite me reminding you that you had a chance. Be more confident in yourself! Having said that, congratulations for the victory. This has been a great debate with interesting arguments  from both you and SA.
IdrisianGraecus
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on October 4th 2019, 8:40 am
Nice job @DC77. This was an excellent debate, both sides had excellent arguments.
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on October 4th 2019, 8:54 am
Good job to both, good luck for the next round @"DC77"
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on October 4th 2019, 8:57 am
Blade_of_Dorin
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on October 5th 2019, 1:58 pm
@DC77 congrats on the win
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on October 5th 2019, 2:26 pm
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