Count Dooku vs Exar Kun

SithArchaeologist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

I'd just like to point out that there's no evidence for a lot of this scaling. Don't treat it as fact until you can back it up.

I can back-up absolutely all of this, lmfao.

LadyKulvax wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

I'd just like to point out that there's no evidence for a lot of this scaling. Don't treat it as fact until you can back it up.

I can back-up absolutely all of this, lmfao.

So do it. Don't expect us to take your word for it.

Ah, yes, because I should have to post quotes for absolutely every single one of the things I say in a post unlike literally everyone else. If you want an actual debate then you can start one properly and not carry on with this passive-aggressive routine of yours.

LadyKulvax wrote:Ah, yes, because I should have to post quotes for absolutely every single one of the things I say in a post unlike literally everyone else. If you want an actual debate then you can start one properly and not carry on with this passive-aggressive routine of yours.

I'm not even asking for quotes yet, just some rudimentary supporting arguments for the litany of random scaling you threw down and expected us all to accept.

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

Mind giving me a few hours to respond back to you? I’m kind of at work for the next 3 hours.

Also @LadyKulvax , mind sending the quotes about the 3rd point? Or at least letting me know which sources you’re getting them from(I’ll look at them when I get home).

Kun dies hard

[quote="TrevaDaProgSnob"]

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power. While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power.  While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

1.Except Luke was bound to Kun's power, his lack of knowledge is irrelevant when we know that binding spirits is not something there is a defense against. Valkorion bound Vaylin and Arcann to him. It took a dues ex machina to break them free because they couldn't will themselves free. In the mean time Kun is actively empowering Kyp to his full might, forcefully corrupting him to the dark side of the Force and outright dominating his mind. That's not even including his other activities done at the same time. That Luke could only aid the students and Vodo's spirit in containing Kun in a Wall of Light demonstrates that Luke most certainly couldn't take Kun on alone. They had to combine their strength whilst he was at his weakest. Yet even whilst this was happening Kun reached across the galaxy and dominated Kyp outright. There's no version of this that goes against Kun's feats here.

2.Krayt's increase in power took place across a century, furthermore he spent that time perfecting his combat skills in over a thousand clashes. The idea that Krayt isn't laughably beyond Hett on Tatooine is honestly ludicrous.

3.You realise you need to use your power to create things with Alchemy? Like, Sidious of all people states that Alchemy is the best shit there is and that it's the ultimate expression of Sith power or whatever the f*ck he says about it.

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power.  While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

1.Except Luke was bound to Kun's power, his lack of knowledge is irrelevant when we know that binding spirits is not something there is a defense against. Valkorion bound Vaylin and Arcann to him. It took a dues ex machina to break them free because they couldn't will themselves free. In the mean time Kun is actively empowering Kyp to his full might, forcefully corrupting him to the dark side of the Force and outright dominating his mind. That's not even including his other activities done at the same time. That Luke could only aid the students and Vodo's spirit in containing Kun in a Wall of Light demonstrates that Luke most certainly couldn't take Kun on alone. They had to combine their strength whilst he was at his weakest. Yet even whilst this was happening Kun reached across the galaxy and dominated Kyp outright. There's no version of this that goes against Kun's feats here.

2.Krayt's increase in power took place across a century, furthermore he spent that time perfecting his combat skills in over a thousand clashes. The idea that Krayt isn't laughably beyond Hett on Tatooine is honestly ludicrous.

3.You realise you need to use your power to create things with Alchemy? Like, Sidious of all people states that Alchemy is the best shit there is and that it's the ultimate expression of Sith power or whatever the f*ck he says about it.

1. My bad for a late response. Celebrating Easter on top of thinking of a response.            

I wouldn’t say the “knowledge” argument is completely irrelevant. The novel states that Kun has had thousands of years to learn how to effect the physical realm(“Ah, but I know other ways to fight,” Kun’s spirit said. “And I have had endless millennia to practice. Rest assured, Skywalker, I will destroy you.”), meanwhile Luke has no such experience or knowledge in combating anyone in the form he’s in. Plus, scaling off Spirit Luke is kind of unfair when the latter has no proper access to force powers/energy, or even the ability to effect the physical realm as well as Kun does. Heck, most Force Spirits can’t even use their own physical force power reserves as a force spirit because they are not material beings with Midichlorians, thus relying on other Midichlorians’ bonds to effect the physical world:

I cannot help you," Aidan sighed. "I lost my power long ago, when I failed to defeat Vader. I am no longer a Jedi."
"But you were able to touch me. You shoved me through a doorway!" Tash cried.
...
"I was able to touch you because we are connected by the Force. I drew on your link with the Force to become more solid, just as I draw on it now to become visible to you. But that's all I can do. I tried to be a hero once, Tash, and I failed."

While Luke does eventually learn to communicate and bond to Jacen, feeding off a 3 year old Jacen isn’t comparable to the experience of feeding off of the Massassi, Kyp Durron, and Gantoris, or manipulating Streen.

Also have been going through the COTF and DA, and neither source mentions that Kun was exerting his power to keep Luke in place as a spirit. There is mention of Luke saying “you’ve broken the bonds”, but it doesn’t go into any further information on those bonds. Is there another source that implies that it was specifically Kun’s power that was being exerted to keep Luke as a spirit? If there is, I’ll probably concede on some parts of my argument if I can’t think of a counter to whatever quotes you pass on.

2. I wasn’t trying to argue that Krayt didn’t increase in terms of power. I’m arguing how the power growth does not quantify Krayt being above Kenobi and Dooku as of his fight with Spirit Muur. Krayt’s scaling from Hett to FOTJ, to his fight Spirit Muur(which based upon the Pre-ANH Vader scenario, is something TPM Maul level is capable of doing) to Reborn Krayt, hella fluctuates between these time periods. If you’re just gonna argue that Krayt was constantly increasing in power from his time against Kenobi up to his fight with Muur, then you run into inconsistencies in scaling like the Spirit Muur fight. At this point in time, it is a known fact that Krayt was at death’s door and not at 100% at all due to the coral seeds infecting and eating at his body(something that most force healing abilities couldn’t properly treat Krayt of, and would have definitely hindered his powers and abilities). So claims of Armored Krayt <<< Spirit Muur would put the former beneath TPM Maul pretty significantly.

Plus, there is still no possible way to properly argue that there is any real gap between Spirit Muur and Physical Muur.


3. None of the sources you gave me really hinted at any implication of Alchemy being involved in the building process of the Harvester, or that the abilities of the Harvester force drain is a representation of Exar Kun’s own power. The cutscene from the game emphasizes how the Force Draining that the machine does is the power source of the Harvester. What you provided me doesn’t hint at Kun using alchemy, or ever enhancing the Harvester with his power in order to make it. Building a weapon or machine does not automatically equate to Alchemy. There are also no hints at the Force Harvester machine being Force Sensitive, which is what happens to weapons/machinery affected by Alchemy, according to BoS.

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power.  While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

1.Except Luke was bound to Kun's power, his lack of knowledge is irrelevant when we know that binding spirits is not something there is a defense against. Valkorion bound Vaylin and Arcann to him. It took a dues ex machina to break them free because they couldn't will themselves free. In the mean time Kun is actively empowering Kyp to his full might, forcefully corrupting him to the dark side of the Force and outright dominating his mind. That's not even including his other activities done at the same time. That Luke could only aid the students and Vodo's spirit in containing Kun in a Wall of Light demonstrates that Luke most certainly couldn't take Kun on alone. They had to combine their strength whilst he was at his weakest. Yet even whilst this was happening Kun reached across the galaxy and dominated Kyp outright. There's no version of this that goes against Kun's feats here.

2.Krayt's increase in power took place across a century, furthermore he spent that time perfecting his combat skills in over a thousand clashes. The idea that Krayt isn't laughably beyond Hett on Tatooine is honestly ludicrous.

3.You realise you need to use your power to create things with Alchemy? Like, Sidious of all people states that Alchemy is the best shit there is and that it's the ultimate expression of Sith power or whatever the f*ck he says about it.

1. My bad for a late response. Celebrating Easter on top of thinking of a response.            

I wouldn’t say the “knowledge” argument is completely irrelevant. The novel states that Kun has had thousands of years to learn how to effect the physical realm(“Ah, but I know other ways to fight,” Kun’s spirit said. “And I have had endless millennia to practice. Rest assured, Skywalker, I will destroy you.”), meanwhile Luke has no such experience or knowledge in combating anyone in the form he’s in. Plus, scaling off Spirit Luke is kind of unfair when the latter has no proper access to force powers/energy, or even the ability to effect the physical realm as well as Kun does. Heck, most Force Spirits can’t even use their own physical force power reserves as a force spirit because they are not material beings with Midichlorians, thus relying on other Midichlorians’ bonds to effect the physical world:

I cannot help you," Aidan sighed. "I lost my power long ago, when I failed to defeat Vader. I am no longer a Jedi."
"But you were able to touch me. You shoved me through a doorway!" Tash cried.
...
"I was able to touch you because we are connected by the Force. I drew on your link with the Force to become more solid, just as I draw on it now to become visible to you. But that's all I can do. I tried to be a hero once, Tash, and I failed."

While Luke does eventually learn to communicate and bond to Jacen, feeding off a 3 year old Jacen isn’t comparable to the experience of feeding off of the Massassi, Kyp Durron, and Gantoris, or manipulating Streen.

Also have been going through the COTF and DA, and neither source mentions that Kun was exerting his power to keep Luke in place as a spirit. There is mention of Luke saying “you’ve broken the bonds”, but it doesn’t go into any further information on those bonds. Is there another source that implies that it was specifically Kun’s power that was being exerted to keep Luke as a spirit? If there is, I’ll probably concede on some parts of my argument if I can’t think of a counter to whatever quotes you pass on.      

2. I wasn’t trying to argue that Krayt didn’t increase in terms of power. I’m arguing how the power growth does not quantify Krayt being above Kenobi and Dooku as of his fight with Spirit Muur. Krayt’s scaling from Hett to FOTJ, to his fight Spirit Muur(which based upon the Pre-ANH Vader scenario, is something TPM Maul level is capable of doing) to Reborn Krayt, hella fluctuates between these time periods. If you’re just gonna argue that Krayt was constantly increasing in power from his time against Kenobi up to his fight with Muur, then you run into inconsistencies in scaling like the Spirit Muur fight. At this point in time, it is a known fact that Krayt was at death’s door and not at 100% at all due to the coral seeds infecting and eating at his body(something that most force healing abilities couldn’t properly treat Krayt of, and would have definitely hindered his powers and abilities). So claims of Armored Krayt <<< Spirit Muur would put the former beneath TPM Maul pretty significantly.

Plus, there is still no possible way to properly argue that there is any real gap between Spirit Muur and Physical Muur.


3. None of the sources you gave me really hinted at any implication of Alchemy being involved in the building process of the Harvester, or that the abilities of the Harvester force drain is a representation of Exar Kun’s own power. The cutscene from the game emphasizes how the Force Draining that the machine does is the power source of the Harvester. What you provided me doesn’t hint at Kun using alchemy, or ever enhancing the Harvester with his power in order to make it. Building a weapon or machine does not automatically equate to Alchemy. There are also no hints at the Force Harvester machine being Force Sensitive, which is what happens to weapons/machinery affected by Alchemy, according to BoS.

1. The entire plot-point was that no Force techniques or healing could bring Luke back to normal. He was being held there by Exar Kun. This is explicitly clear given that Luke immediately wakes up in his body the moment Kun is destroyed. Furthermore, this quote states Kirana Ti freed Luke's spirit by defeating Exar Kun. Further backing up the statement by Luke that he was bonded to Exar Kun:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other students in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

2.We could speculate all we like, but this quote:

Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

Makes it pretty clear who is more powerful, regardless of if Krayt is substantially diverting power to stave off the Vong armor. Not to mention it scales him over Cade thus rendering that argument redundant. Muur is straight up more powerful than Krayt. In fact, he is capable of overpowering Darth Krayt and Azelyn Rae with Force lightning whilst simultaneously using Force Maelstrom to ragdoll Cade Skywalker, Shado Vao, Ganner Kreig and Darth Maladi; who required a bacta tank to heal from the damage. So yeah, Muur Muurks Krayt:



If you want to suggest Krayt would be his equal or greater, be my guest. That doesn't make up for him being in spiritual form. Nor do I see how you can claim that he isn't weaker when he literally searches for someone who is strong enough to free his spirit from the Talisman. Clearly incapable of doing so himself.

3.Nah, it's confirmed to be among his alchemy achievements:

New Essential Chronology wrote:An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies. Exar Kun had also constructed a Sith superweapon, the Dark Reaper, that was capable of drawing in the life energies of thousands of combatants. Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.

Dooku, rather decisively.

Still Dooku.

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power.  While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

1.Except Luke was bound to Kun's power, his lack of knowledge is irrelevant when we know that binding spirits is not something there is a defense against. Valkorion bound Vaylin and Arcann to him. It took a dues ex machina to break them free because they couldn't will themselves free. In the mean time Kun is actively empowering Kyp to his full might, forcefully corrupting him to the dark side of the Force and outright dominating his mind. That's not even including his other activities done at the same time. That Luke could only aid the students and Vodo's spirit in containing Kun in a Wall of Light demonstrates that Luke most certainly couldn't take Kun on alone. They had to combine their strength whilst he was at his weakest. Yet even whilst this was happening Kun reached across the galaxy and dominated Kyp outright. There's no version of this that goes against Kun's feats here.

2.Krayt's increase in power took place across a century, furthermore he spent that time perfecting his combat skills in over a thousand clashes. The idea that Krayt isn't laughably beyond Hett on Tatooine is honestly ludicrous.

3.You realise you need to use your power to create things with Alchemy? Like, Sidious of all people states that Alchemy is the best shit there is and that it's the ultimate expression of Sith power or whatever the f*ck he says about it.

1. My bad for a late response. Celebrating Easter on top of thinking of a response.            

I wouldn’t say the “knowledge” argument is completely irrelevant. The novel states that Kun has had thousands of years to learn how to effect the physical realm(“Ah, but I know other ways to fight,” Kun’s spirit said. “And I have had endless millennia to practice. Rest assured, Skywalker, I will destroy you.”), meanwhile Luke has no such experience or knowledge in combating anyone in the form he’s in. Plus, scaling off Spirit Luke is kind of unfair when the latter has no proper access to force powers/energy, or even the ability to effect the physical realm as well as Kun does. Heck, most Force Spirits can’t even use their own physical force power reserves as a force spirit because they are not material beings with Midichlorians, thus relying on other Midichlorians’ bonds to effect the physical world:

I cannot help you," Aidan sighed. "I lost my power long ago, when I failed to defeat Vader. I am no longer a Jedi."
"But you were able to touch me. You shoved me through a doorway!" Tash cried.
...
"I was able to touch you because we are connected by the Force. I drew on your link with the Force to become more solid, just as I draw on it now to become visible to you. But that's all I can do. I tried to be a hero once, Tash, and I failed."

While Luke does eventually learn to communicate and bond to Jacen, feeding off a 3 year old Jacen isn’t comparable to the experience of feeding off of the Massassi, Kyp Durron, and Gantoris, or manipulating Streen.

Also have been going through the COTF and DA, and neither source mentions that Kun was exerting his power to keep Luke in place as a spirit. There is mention of Luke saying “you’ve broken the bonds”, but it doesn’t go into any further information on those bonds. Is there another source that implies that it was specifically Kun’s power that was being exerted to keep Luke as a spirit? If there is, I’ll probably concede on some parts of my argument if I can’t think of a counter to whatever quotes you pass on.      

2. I wasn’t trying to argue that Krayt didn’t increase in terms of power. I’m arguing how the power growth does not quantify Krayt being above Kenobi and Dooku as of his fight with Spirit Muur. Krayt’s scaling from Hett to FOTJ, to his fight Spirit Muur(which based upon the Pre-ANH Vader scenario, is something TPM Maul level is capable of doing) to Reborn Krayt, hella fluctuates between these time periods. If you’re just gonna argue that Krayt was constantly increasing in power from his time against Kenobi up to his fight with Muur, then you run into inconsistencies in scaling like the Spirit Muur fight. At this point in time, it is a known fact that Krayt was at death’s door and not at 100% at all due to the coral seeds infecting and eating at his body(something that most force healing abilities couldn’t properly treat Krayt of, and would have definitely hindered his powers and abilities). So claims of Armored Krayt <<< Spirit Muur would put the former beneath TPM Maul pretty significantly.

Plus, there is still no possible way to properly argue that there is any real gap between Spirit Muur and Physical Muur.


3. None of the sources you gave me really hinted at any implication of Alchemy being involved in the building process of the Harvester, or that the abilities of the Harvester force drain is a representation of Exar Kun’s own power. The cutscene from the game emphasizes how the Force Draining that the machine does is the power source of the Harvester. What you provided me doesn’t hint at Kun using alchemy, or ever enhancing the Harvester with his power in order to make it. Building a weapon or machine does not automatically equate to Alchemy. There are also no hints at the Force Harvester machine being Force Sensitive, which is what happens to weapons/machinery affected by Alchemy, according to BoS.

1. The entire plot-point was that no Force techniques or healing could bring Luke back to normal. He was being held there by Exar Kun. This is explicitly clear given that Luke immediately wakes up in his body the moment Kun is destroyed. Furthermore, this quote states Kirana Ti freed Luke's spirit by defeating Exar Kun. Further backing up the statement by Luke that he was bonded to Exar Kun:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other students in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

2.We could speculate all we like, but this quote:

Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

Makes it pretty clear who is more powerful, regardless of if Krayt is substantially diverting power to stave off the Vong armor. Not to mention it scales him over Cade thus rendering that argument redundant. Muur is straight up more powerful than Krayt. In fact, he is capable of overpowering Darth Krayt and Azelyn Rae with Force lightning whilst simultaneously using Force Maelstrom to ragdoll Cade Skywalker, Shado Vao, Ganner Kreig and Darth Maladi; who required a bacta tank to heal from the damage. So yeah, Muur Muurks Krayt:



If you want to suggest Krayt would be his equal or greater, be my guest. That doesn't make up for him being in spiritual form. Nor do I see how you can claim that he isn't weaker when he literally searches for someone who is strong enough to free his spirit from the Talisman. Clearly incapable of doing so himself.

3.Nah, it's confirmed to be among his alchemy achievements:

New Essential Chronology wrote:An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies. Exar Kun had also constructed a Sith superweapon, the Dark Reaper, that was capable of drawing in the life energies of thousands of combatants. Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.

1. While you've provided a quote that implies that Kun may have prevented Luke from returning to his, since he needed to die in order to free Luke, you still haven't really address or debunked either of my arguments about: Spirit Luke not being able to have access to his force powers against Kun and shouldn't be used as a scaling tool for Luke as a physical being, or Luke having the knowledge/experience that Kun does in terms of spiritual abilities to use them in combat. Also in the case of Valkorion and Vaylin example(not Arcann since he wasn't spiritually bound), the circumstances of that example are different from Kun/Luke. This is because Vaylin spirit essence was absorbed by Valkorion.

The COTF novel never makes any indication that Kun did this to Luke. So there's no way for you to argue that what happened to Luke was a form of binding by Kun's powers ala Valkorion/Vaylin, only that Kun preventing Luke from returning to his body by some means. If that prevention is caused by his powers, there's still the fact that Spirit Luke can't properly access his force reserves. So in this scenario we have Kun is preventing Luke's spirit, whom doesn't have access to the force reserves and abilities of his physical body, from returning to his body.

2. If Krayt is substantially diverting power and/or weakened because he has to fend off the Vong Armor, then he is clearly not as powerful and strong as he would usually be portrayed. Muur;s scaling gets effected by having only fought and scaled above a 19BBY Vader and a half dead Krayt, both of whom are either not nearly as powerful as they would usually be because of parasites or not even close to their prime. Muur's feats and scaling wouldn't be enough to suggest putting him above TPM Maul, per Maul's scaling against the more powerful ANH Vader. Given that latter feat, Maul would more than likely have the same results when fighting Armored Krayt and 19BBY Vader. Even an out of prime Ben Kenobi as of ANH would scale above Muur, Krayt and 19BBY Vader per his scaling against ANH Vader, and he's weaker than ROTS Kenobi.

“Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.” (Source: Star Wars The Essential Guide to Characters)

/ “Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.” (Source: Star Wars Mysteries of the Jedi)

/ “Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.” (Source: Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack - Darth Vader)

So if TPM Maul and ANH Kenobi scale significantly above 19BBY Vader and Armored Krayt, then there's no reason to suggest Muur is anything more than rough equal or inferior to ANH Kenobi and TPM Maul(both of whom are solidly inferior to Dooku). This all in conjunction with the fact that there is no evidence that suggests Muur was any weaker as a Spirit than alive, the scaling you mentioned above in your very first response having no true evidence indicative how powerful each Ancient Sith was in comparison to Dooku(or if they were even comparable at all), and the fact that Dooku has better scaling and feats compared to either 19BBY Vader, Krayt, Vong Armored Krayt, TPM Maul, ANH Kenobi, ROTS Kenobi or any of the Ancient Sith you mentioned in your first response. On a side note: Muur only hit Krayt with the Force Lightning because the latter was stabbed in the back via sneak attack, and through out the fight, Krayt was contending pretty well against Muur despite his sickness and Muur's supposed superiority(suggesting that the gap between Armored Krayt and Muur isn't that large).

3. Uhhhhhhhhhh, why are those 2 separate/different quotes combined to make 1 source? I have The New Essential Chronology and those quotes are not even in the same section: The first 2 sentences are from "The Coming Ruin 3997 B.B.Y" and the last two are from "The Sith War 3996 B.B.Y"

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

TrevaDaProgSnob wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:1.Exar Kun >>> Exar Kun's spirit > Kyp Durron & Luke Skywalker >> Count Dooku.

2.Exar Kun > Marka Ragnos > Tulak Hord > Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >>> Karness Muur's spirit > Darth Krayt >>>> A'sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ Count Dooku

3.Exar Kun > Dark Reaper >> Count Dooku.

Honestly, the idea Dooku can win is comical.

Mind going more in-depth with the reasonings for the 3 points you wrote here?        @LadyKulvax

Well the first is simply a feat, Kun's spirit was fucking around with Luke's spirit and Kyp's mind whilst juggling a bunch of other shit on the side. It's easily beyond Dooku.

Second is basic scaling from Hett's duel with Kenobi. No matter what way you swing it, Krayt's growth nullifies any form of discrepancies you may percieve. Even if you want to ignore Kenobi moving fast enough to make Dooku shit himself and scale him from his TK cheapshotting of Kenobi then fine. It still doesn't account for Krayt's growth. Like, at all.

Third is just the fact that Kun's power sourced and created the Force Harvester and it would've drained anyone who got too close to it whilst active, including Dooku.

1. My problem with the first point is that Kun’s spirit was able to manipulate Luke as effectively as he did because of the latter’s lack of knowledge on how to properly combat what Kun was throwing at him(Luke makes note of how he still doesn’t know how to combat Kun even while in his coma state). Another thing in terms of the Scaling between Kun and Luke, the JA Sourcebook details how Kun despite absorbing the energies from Kyp and the others, he still was not a challenge for Luke. Another problem I have is that Dooku was able to contend with the likes of Yoda, after fighting the likes of AOTC Anakin(and Kenobi), Anakin whom was able to move Dreadnoughts with his power.  While Yoa was his superior, the fact that Dooku contended as well as he did after fighting someone as powerful as Anakin(on top of holding off against a more powerful version of Anakin and Obi-Wan) is indicative of superiority to Kun’s feat in my eyes.

2. I’m not sure how scaling Krayt’s growth in power is a quantifiable implication of being superior to Kenobi(or Dooku). Yes he grew in power, but logically I believe we can assume that at the point of Armored Krayt and Muur’s confrontation(compared to FOTJ And Reborn Krayt), he wasn’t as powerful due to the circumstances of him dying(however this is more or less an hypothesis on my end). Also, while Krayt mentions he grew in power, it’s TECHNICALLY not an indication of superiority to Kenobi(who at this point was old and rusty compared to ROTS).

Another problem I see with this scaling is the fact that Spirit Muur’s power isn’t properly quantified despite being above a Post ROTS Suited Vader. Vader 17 years pre-ANH still scales beneath Resurrected/TPM Maul, who is without a doubt weaker than Dooku. There’s also no proper way to say how big of a gap there is between Physical Muur and Spirit Muur, if one exists at all(which I’s argue its hella negligible).Muur used Essence Transfer to transfer his mind, power and will into his Talisman(Essence Transfer does not weaken an individuals power). So working off my statement above, on top of the scaling of Ancient Sith Lords: Hord, Ragnos, Pall, we still have a lack of feats and proper scaling of the latter 3 to even argue them above the TPM Maul tier. At best you could group all of them roughly equal to TPM Maul tier characters, but it would not speak for Dooku.

3. From what I gathered from the cutscene in the Star Wars: Clone Wars game, "The Sith(Kun in this) crafted a device that harnessed the living Force to provide its power" meaning that the the Harvester takes the Life Energy that it Drains from planets and is used to power the Reaper. Not really a form of Alchemy. Also based on this quote and the one you PM’ed me and others from BoS and CSWE, I wouldn’t say that the Harvester is a reflection of Kun’s own power at all, just the machine itself. Honestly, it just sounds like Kun built the thing. Side note: Mace also makes note that the machine is recharged after every drain.

1.Except Luke was bound to Kun's power, his lack of knowledge is irrelevant when we know that binding spirits is not something there is a defense against. Valkorion bound Vaylin and Arcann to him. It took a dues ex machina to break them free because they couldn't will themselves free. In the mean time Kun is actively empowering Kyp to his full might, forcefully corrupting him to the dark side of the Force and outright dominating his mind. That's not even including his other activities done at the same time. That Luke could only aid the students and Vodo's spirit in containing Kun in a Wall of Light demonstrates that Luke most certainly couldn't take Kun on alone. They had to combine their strength whilst he was at his weakest. Yet even whilst this was happening Kun reached across the galaxy and dominated Kyp outright. There's no version of this that goes against Kun's feats here.

2.Krayt's increase in power took place across a century, furthermore he spent that time perfecting his combat skills in over a thousand clashes. The idea that Krayt isn't laughably beyond Hett on Tatooine is honestly ludicrous.

3.You realise you need to use your power to create things with Alchemy? Like, Sidious of all people states that Alchemy is the best shit there is and that it's the ultimate expression of Sith power or whatever the f*ck he says about it.

1. My bad for a late response. Celebrating Easter on top of thinking of a response.            

I wouldn’t say the “knowledge” argument is completely irrelevant. The novel states that Kun has had thousands of years to learn how to effect the physical realm(“Ah, but I know other ways to fight,” Kun’s spirit said. “And I have had endless millennia to practice. Rest assured, Skywalker, I will destroy you.”), meanwhile Luke has no such experience or knowledge in combating anyone in the form he’s in. Plus, scaling off Spirit Luke is kind of unfair when the latter has no proper access to force powers/energy, or even the ability to effect the physical realm as well as Kun does. Heck, most Force Spirits can’t even use their own physical force power reserves as a force spirit because they are not material beings with Midichlorians, thus relying on other Midichlorians’ bonds to effect the physical world:

I cannot help you," Aidan sighed. "I lost my power long ago, when I failed to defeat Vader. I am no longer a Jedi."
"But you were able to touch me. You shoved me through a doorway!" Tash cried.
...
"I was able to touch you because we are connected by the Force. I drew on your link with the Force to become more solid, just as I draw on it now to become visible to you. But that's all I can do. I tried to be a hero once, Tash, and I failed."

While Luke does eventually learn to communicate and bond to Jacen, feeding off a 3 year old Jacen isn’t comparable to the experience of feeding off of the Massassi, Kyp Durron, and Gantoris, or manipulating Streen.

Also have been going through the COTF and DA, and neither source mentions that Kun was exerting his power to keep Luke in place as a spirit. There is mention of Luke saying “you’ve broken the bonds”, but it doesn’t go into any further information on those bonds. Is there another source that implies that it was specifically Kun’s power that was being exerted to keep Luke as a spirit? If there is, I’ll probably concede on some parts of my argument if I can’t think of a counter to whatever quotes you pass on.      

2. I wasn’t trying to argue that Krayt didn’t increase in terms of power. I’m arguing how the power growth does not quantify Krayt being above Kenobi and Dooku as of his fight with Spirit Muur. Krayt’s scaling from Hett to FOTJ, to his fight Spirit Muur(which based upon the Pre-ANH Vader scenario, is something TPM Maul level is capable of doing) to Reborn Krayt, hella fluctuates between these time periods. If you’re just gonna argue that Krayt was constantly increasing in power from his time against Kenobi up to his fight with Muur, then you run into inconsistencies in scaling like the Spirit Muur fight. At this point in time, it is a known fact that Krayt was at death’s door and not at 100% at all due to the coral seeds infecting and eating at his body(something that most force healing abilities couldn’t properly treat Krayt of, and would have definitely hindered his powers and abilities). So claims of Armored Krayt <<< Spirit Muur would put the former beneath TPM Maul pretty significantly.

Plus, there is still no possible way to properly argue that there is any real gap between Spirit Muur and Physical Muur.


3. None of the sources you gave me really hinted at any implication of Alchemy being involved in the building process of the Harvester, or that the abilities of the Harvester force drain is a representation of Exar Kun’s own power. The cutscene from the game emphasizes how the Force Draining that the machine does is the power source of the Harvester. What you provided me doesn’t hint at Kun using alchemy, or ever enhancing the Harvester with his power in order to make it. Building a weapon or machine does not automatically equate to Alchemy. There are also no hints at the Force Harvester machine being Force Sensitive, which is what happens to weapons/machinery affected by Alchemy, according to BoS.

1. The entire plot-point was that no Force techniques or healing could bring Luke back to normal. He was being held there by Exar Kun. This is explicitly clear given that Luke immediately wakes up in his body the moment Kun is destroyed. Furthermore, this quote states Kirana Ti freed Luke's spirit by defeating Exar Kun. Further backing up the statement by Luke that he was bonded to Exar Kun:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other students in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

2.We could speculate all we like, but this quote:

Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

Makes it pretty clear who is more powerful, regardless of if Krayt is substantially diverting power to stave off the Vong armor. Not to mention it scales him over Cade thus rendering that argument redundant. Muur is straight up more powerful than Krayt. In fact, he is capable of overpowering Darth Krayt and Azelyn Rae with Force lightning whilst simultaneously using Force Maelstrom to ragdoll Cade Skywalker, Shado Vao, Ganner Kreig and Darth Maladi; who required a bacta tank to heal from the damage. So yeah, Muur Muurks Krayt:



If you want to suggest Krayt would be his equal or greater, be my guest. That doesn't make up for him being in spiritual form. Nor do I see how you can claim that he isn't weaker when he literally searches for someone who is strong enough to free his spirit from the Talisman. Clearly incapable of doing so himself.

3.Nah, it's confirmed to be among his alchemy achievements:

New Essential Chronology wrote:An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies. Exar Kun had also constructed a Sith superweapon, the Dark Reaper, that was capable of drawing in the life energies of thousands of combatants. Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.

1. While you've provided a quote that implies that Kun may have prevented Luke from returning to his, since he needed to die in order to free Luke, you still haven't really address or debunked either of my arguments about: Spirit Luke not being able to have access to his force powers against Kun and shouldn't be used as a scaling tool for Luke as a physical being, or Luke having the knowledge/experience that Kun does in terms of spiritual abilities to use them in combat. Also in the case of Valkorion and Vaylin example(not Arcann since he wasn't spiritually bound), the circumstances of that example are different from Kun/Luke. This is because Vaylin spirit essence was absorbed by Valkorion.

The COTF novel never makes any indication that Kun did this to Luke. So there's no way for you to argue that what happened to Luke was a form of binding by Kun's powers ala Valkorion/Vaylin, only that Kun preventing Luke from returning to his body by some means. If that prevention is caused by his powers, there's still the fact that Spirit Luke can't properly access his force reserves. So in this scenario we have Kun is preventing Luke's spirit, whom doesn't have access to the force reserves and abilities of his physical body, from returning to his body.

2. If Krayt is substantially diverting power and/or weakened because he has to fend off the Vong Armor, then he is clearly not as powerful and strong as he would usually be portrayed. Muur;s scaling gets effected by having only fought and scaled above a 19BBY Vader and a half dead Krayt, both of whom are either not nearly as powerful as they would usually be because of parasites or not even close to their prime. Muur's feats and scaling wouldn't be enough to suggest putting him above TPM Maul, per Maul's scaling against the more powerful ANH Vader. Given that latter feat, Maul would more than likely have the same results when fighting Armored Krayt and 19BBY Vader. Even an out of prime Ben Kenobi as of ANH would scale above Muur, Krayt and 19BBY Vader per his scaling against ANH Vader, and he's weaker than ROTS Kenobi.

“Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.” (Source: Star Wars The Essential Guide to Characters)

/ “Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.” (Source: Star Wars Mysteries of the Jedi)

/ “Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.” (Source: Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack - Darth Vader)

So if TPM Maul and ANH Kenobi scale significantly above 19BBY Vader and Armored Krayt, then there's no reason to suggest Muur is anything more than rough equal or inferior to ANH Kenobi and TPM Maul(both of whom are solidly inferior to Dooku). This all in conjunction with the fact that there is no evidence that suggests Muur was any weaker as a Spirit than alive, the scaling you mentioned above in your very first response having no true evidence indicative how powerful each Ancient Sith was in comparison to Dooku(or if they were even comparable at all), and the fact that Dooku has better scaling and feats compared to either 19BBY Vader, Krayt, Vong Armored Krayt, TPM Maul, ANH Kenobi, ROTS Kenobi or any of the Ancient Sith you mentioned in your first response. On a side note: Muur only hit Krayt with the Force Lightning because the latter was stabbed in the back via sneak attack, and through out the fight, Krayt was contending pretty well against Muur despite his sickness and Muur's supposed superiority(suggesting that the gap between Armored Krayt and Muur isn't that large).

3. Uhhhhhhhhhh, why are those 2 separate/different quotes combined to make 1 source? I have The New Essential Chronology and those quotes are not even in the same section: The first 2 sentences are from "The Coming Ruin 3997 B.B.Y" and the last two are from "The Sith War 3996 B.B.Y"

1.I'm not arguing that the feat equates to Kun scaling from physical Luke. I'm saying Luke's Force essence was bound to Exar Kun's spirit whilst Kun was utterly dominating Kyp Durron. Note that this is literally the only context we get about what Kun has done. Luke saying he was bonded and the TCSWE stating his spirit had been freed by defeating Exar Kun. There is nothing at all stating Kun was controlling Luke's body in any manner. It's a spiritual binding. No matter which way you swing, it's an incredibly impressive feat for Kun to pull off. Not least because Kun empowering Kyp was what allowed Kyp to down Luke in the first place:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power.

....

He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

It's actually stated that Exar Kun was channelling powers through Kyp Durron:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends. How he was able to do such things is a Sith mystery which has not been revealed for many centuries.

His dark side corruption does in fact vanish upon Exar Kun's destruction, further showing that the aforementioned is true:

Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force wrote:And then the haunting voice of Exar Kun rose to a wail in his mind, an utterly forlorn scream as if he were being torn out of this universe and exiled to another place entirely, where he could torment Kyp Durron no more. Kyp snapped backward in his control seat as if an invisible tow cable had been severed. His arms and head dangled like a puppet with suddenly snipped strings. The cool wind of freedom whistled through his mind and body. He blinked his eyes and shuddered with revulsion at what he had been about to do.

2.The idea that Krayt wasn't vastly more powerful and skilled by the point of facing Muur is just not supported by anything. First off, his apprenticeship to XoXaan already increased his power:



His time in the embrace of pain made him even more powerful than that did:

Darth Krayt, Legacy wrote:"Vergere taught me to use the agony of the embrace of pain to open myself to the dark side."

And only then does this quote become relevant:



Naturally, Darth Krayt's power dwarfs what he weilded in his days as XoXaan's apprentice, nevermind his days as a Tusken raider where even a slight distraction would get Kenobi killed against him. Something Krayt himself states.

There's really no argument here. Darth Krayt's power growth was absolutely enormous, whilst he's not as powerful as he is in FOTJ when he fights Muur. There's nothing that could possibly negate the magnitudes of difference between A'sharad Hett the Tusken and Darth Krayt as of facing Karness Muur.

What's pretty bad at this point is that even amongst the Exiles, Muur isn't the most powerful. Once you get to the proper ancient Sith scaling, which Kun is the height of, then the argument just straight up ends with Kun slaughterhousing.

3.My bad, I took that quote at face value. I'll find the other one tonight.

Faulty and incorrect scaling aside, Dooku takes this. It'll be a nice fight, tho.

'Faulty and incorrect'
>Doesn't bother to argue why.

Multiple users and myself have argued why many times before. You often just cover your ears tho; and there's no point talking to a wall.

Or you just didn't make it convincing enough.

SummertimeSadness wrote:Faulty and incorrect scaling aside, Dooku takes this. It'll be a nice fight, tho.

This referring to my scaling? Or Lady’s? Won’t lie, I’m not too good at this debating thing.

@LadyKulvax Why're you still acting as though Muur (maybe) being > Kenobi has relevance when I've debunked your comparison between Kenobi and Dooku?

LadyKulvax wrote:Or you just didn't make it convincing enough.

IDK, Kulvax. Most people don't seem to buy into the Kun hype.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:@LadyKulvax Why're you still acting as though Muur (maybe) being > Kenobi has relevance when I've debunked your comparison between Kenobi and Dooku?

If by 'debunked' you mean inventing arbitrary reasons to dismiss a novelisation because it doesn't suit your Dooku wank, then sure.

>Abiding by the official legends policy.

>Inventing arbitrary reasons.



Those two don't seem synonymous but maybe that's just me.

I mean it isn't as if avoiding it via that excuse even does your argument any favours anyway. There are quotes outright stating that he was fighting harder against Grievous than Dooku and a further quote stating he was fighting even harder than that on Mustafar. So Mustafar Kenobi is well within his range anyway. Which is all that is relevant given two years later he hasn't 'dulled' at all. So yes, Krayt scaling well beyond Kenobi is still just as telling as before. In fact, I might say the scaling has gotten even worse for Tyranus given the aforementioned affirmations regarding Kenobi.

@LadyKulvax

If by 'debunked' you mean inventing arbitrary reasons to dismiss a novelisation because it doesn't suit your Dooku wank, then sure. wrote:

Lmao, the irony of this statement though. You're the one inventing arbitrary reasons to dismiss the official canon policy which is that the films are paramount and trump all contradictory sources:

"There is a heirarchy -- the movies, novelizations, radio dramas come first. Then everything else. If something in a novelization contradicts the movies, then we defer to the movies. IE, the ROJ novelization says that Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were brothers. This wasn't in the movie, and has since been discounted. Maybe it was a cover they used at one point... who knows."

-Sue Rostoni

---

"The films are gospel. All the rest are gossip."

-George Lucas

---

"As many fans know, when it comes to Star Wars knowledge, there are degrees of ”canon.” The only true canon are the films themselves."

-Steve Sansweet

---

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-LucasFilm Storygroup

---

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."

-Christopher Cerasi

---

"Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorised adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics. After that, almost everything falls into a category of ”quasi-canon."

-Steve Sansweet

---

"In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films."

-Leland Chee

---

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

-Sue Rostoni

---

"The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered ”G” canon. Next we have what we call continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary ”S” continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes ”C”. Similarly, any ”C” canon item that makes it into the films can become ”G” canon. Lastly there is non-continuity ”N” which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut."

-Leland Chee

---

”...'continuity C canon which is pretty much everything else.' By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case."

-Leland Chee

---

"Well, Star Wars is one of the few properties out there that we really try to keep everything together and, and that, y'know, we even bring now Marvel Comics into the, the mix and try to explain, y'know, how there can be giant pink rabbits and things of that nature. Um, so, canon, I mean, there are degrees of canon, and the only thing that is at the top level of canon are the movies as they exist now, from George.."

-Steve Sansweet

If you're going to debate Dooku vs Kun then at least do so reasonably and not continue to press debunked points.