Dooku vs Arcann vs Caedus vs Starkiller

@Cheth wrote:

I think Dooku wins since his power shouldn't be far behind Starkiller,

Feel free to provide feats form Dooku that compare to SK's (feats cited on the previous page).

Dooku's showings against Yoda and him ragdolling multiple multi-hundred meter long warships is more than enough to put him around Starkiller's level in force power tbh.

@EmperorCaedus

His superior feats include:
Jacen has achieved oneness, the most powerful and impressive feat out of any mortal force user. (Pre-prime)

Uh, SK has also achieved Oneness. This isn't really relevant to the discussion anyway, given that entering oneness is more to do with mindset than actual Force Power.

Jacen has been poisoned and reduced it's effect using the force to stay alive, it would've easily killed him in minutes

So, he knows detoxify poison??? What about this feat is remotely impressive? I mean it's not really relevant in combat, given that it's not as if SK is going to poison him lol.

Jacen augmented the powers and abilities of a mortal non-force user, something that no other being has done.

The latter part of the sentence is false, but regardless why is this impressive? This has more to do with Force Knowledge, etc than actual power, it's not something actually combatively relevant, unlike, say Starkiller's atomisation of The Salvation.

Jacen absorbed blaster fire from hundreds of bullets, before he was officially knighted.

Citation needed.

A. Starkiller did not ragdoll Vader, we actually don't know if Starkiller is more conventionally powerful than Vader, it's impossible to gauge.

Are you seriously just recycling what you saw MP argue on Discord??? And btw, Starkiller did ragdoll Vader:

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.

He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.

-The Force Unleashed Novelization

What would you define this as other than a ragdolling?

@Blade_of_Dorin

Dooku's showings against Yoda and him ragdolling multiple multi-hundred meter long warships is more than enough to put him around Starkiller's level in force power tbh.

1. Why are Dooku's performances against Yoda indicative of power comparability to Starkiller? They're largely saber based, and Dooku was still significantly inferior to the little green freak.

2. The warships potentially could have been 75m and even if we assume the max (which there's no reason to) that showing still isn't as good as Galen atomising The Salvation.

@BreakofDawn

It's more about scaling. He scales above a character who even in TOR's golden age of swordsmen and women was regarded as having "legendary" martial abilities, was considered the greatest warrior of the Jedi Order long before their prime, etc.

I wouldn’t consider having “legendary” martial abilities is comparable to having “all but perfected Lightsaber combat,” but that’s just me. And being considered the greatest warrior in the order accounts for Force Power as well, not just martial abilities. Then we have to consider that Arcann is vastly more powerful than the HoT and likely outmatched him through superior augmentation, there’s no indication he’s comparably skilled.

All of these accolades are very similar to Dooku's.

As has already been pointed out Dooku’s accolades encompass a greater period of time, and are more Lightsaber combat specific, not just general accolades on his abilities as a warrior.

Also, SK was unable to pierce TFU II Vader's defences and was nearly struck down a couple of times during the fight, so I'm less impressed by one accolade that's likely to be hyperbole when compared to Arcann and Dooku's respective feats and accolades.

Firstly, Starkiller was exhausted, and secondly, he did pierce Vader’s defences…

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

-The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

Secondly, this was an indication of both of their overall abilities as warriors which includes many elements, not just martial prowess.

Thirdly, you haven’t even established why this is a bad feat, what makes Vader so bad in Lightsaber combat?

Arcann off of chained Vaylin, who easily tore apart huge buildings and threw them like projectiles for example.

The feat you’re referencing isn’t remotely comparable to any of the feats I cited for Starkiller. Plus, given that Vaylin has a total lack of mastery, Arcann stalemating a more powerful Chained Vaylin in conventional combat doesn’t necessarily mean he can replicate her raw power feats.

He can also be scaled off the Outlander, who long before his prime and while wounded provided >1/3 of the power necessary to lift the Gravestone from the swamp it had been stuck in for centuries.

The trio gave it a minor push so it could take off, once again, this feat doesn’t remotely compare to Starkiller’s raw power feats.

Dooku can be scaled off the likes of AOTC/(maybe) TCW Mace and pre-IH Anakin, and a case could also be made for him being scaled off of pre-Plagueis boost Sheev.

All 3 of whom you’ve failed to establish as more powerful than Starkiller. You also haven’t explained how Dooku scales off any of them.

That would require him to have a power advantage so decisive that he'd be able to dominate.

So far, I’ve yet to see any evidence Starkiller’s power edge isn’t decisive.

Dooku has arguably better mastery and both him and Arcann are not just better swordsmen but comparably powerful through a combination of scaling and feats.

Yes, I acknowledge Dooku is both more masterful and more skilled, but you’ve failed to establish why this will allow him the W vs Starkiller’s raw power.

For Arcann you haven’t even established him as more skilled or more masterful.

@Cheth

Tossing around sith warships is close to destroying the cruiser, and being compared to apprentice Sheev also seems to indicate high force-sensitivity.

1. Why is Dooku tossing around those warships comparable to Starkiller atomising The Salvation, for example?

2. Dooku has high Force-Sensitivity no doubt, but I’m questioning whether his power is at all comparable to Starkiller’s.

He was also frequently noted to be one of the greatest masters of the order, with an ability to be the greatest. This was before becoming a sith and getting a large powerboost.

Yeah, I’m well aware of Dooku’s power hype, but why does this even remotely suggest Dooku can come close to replicating any of the feats I cited for Starkiller?

As for the advantage in skill, its mainly for multiple times showing the ability to stalemate and outmatch superior duelists than anyone here (Like pre-IH anakin and IH Kenobi), as well as holding his own against Yoda, despite being tired from dueling Anakin and Kenobi. Managing to beat Grievous (pre-tcw 08 Grievous), presumably without or with minor useage of the force besides augmentation also suggests a high degree of skill.

Based on what can Starkiller not replicate any of these showings? Simply citing Dooku’s feats doesn’t give me reasons why they’re out of Starkiller’s range. As I said previously Starkiller has “all but perfected Lightsaber combat” and is boasting raw power of the highest tier (meaning he’ll have incredibly potent augmentation), so I personally don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t be capable of replicating these showings or at least coming close to them.

It is isn't it? That just goes to show you, doesn't it?

@Word Salad Will get back to you tomorrow, forgot to do my seminar readings.

@"Word Salad"


1. While yes, you are correct in saying that Yoda's fight with Dooku was "largely saber based", that doesn't mean that there weren't instances in the fight where we can try to draw a comparison between their power in the force. And as a matter of fact, in the adult novelization of Attack of the Clones, there is an instance where (A fatigued) Dooku and Yoda are locked in a contest of physical strength and strength in the force (through a blade lock) and Yoda is only able to move "just a bit":


"Yoda’s green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the force. Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit"
 
So yea, while a majority of the fight was a duel, we still have a direct comparison of what is described as "a contest of strength, physical and of the force" between the two, and in said contest, Yoda was only able to move Dooku's blade "just a bit", which to me seems to indicate that they are at the very least, decently close to each other. 

2. As for the Salvation vs Warship comparison, I definitely agree that the former feat is better, I never argued that it wasn't, but still looking at how easily Dooku ragdolled the Warships and how in a direct contest of force power against Yoda, a tired Dooku was moved only "just a bit, I see no reason why SK's Salvation feat is out of the Count's depth. And even if it is, you (or anyone else) has yet to proven so.

@Word Salad The Salvation feat cannot be used to demonstrate superiority to Dooku lmao. At least not in any concrete fashion due to the situational circumstances of the feat. While the feat is undeniably more impressive than anything Dooku has to his name from a raw power pov, we don't know if Dooku would have succeeded if he was placed in such a situation. Due to the nebulous nature of such a comparison, I think it is more productive to base conclusions off of the enemies they have faced and how they fared against them.

I will be building a scaling chain for Dooku's power and we'll where SK ought to fit in it. I'm sure you're well aware of Dooku's superiority over ROTS Kenobi and his ability do ragdoll Kenobi in the force(a stance you agree with). Such superiority is indicative of significant superiority in force power. Now Ben Kenobi is more powerful than Vader as of ANH per George Lucas. Ben Kenobi is at best =ROTS Kenobi in force power and at worst . So let's see what our possible scaling chain for force power looks like.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi>/=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader>TFU Vader. Alternatively a more conservative chain is also possible.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader=TFU Vader. 

In either case, the gap between Vader and Dooku is enormous. Dooku should be easily capable of ragdolling Vader. Now where would SK fit into these chains. Based on SK's performances against Vader, I don't see how its realistically possible for SK to be significantly more powerful in the force than Dooku. Sure he's been able to stand as combatively on par with Vader despite being exhausted, but I don't see how that is beyond Dooku's power when Dooku has been able to ragdoll a superior of Vader in Kenobi despite being fatigued himself. In fact I think it is possible that Dooku's feat of ragdolling a superior of Vader while fatigued is actually more impressive than being combatively on par with Vader when exhausted. Even if I don't go that far, I think it should still be evident that they are at the very least comparable in applicable force power Now let's move on to their skill levels which is where Dooku blatantly outsrips SK imo.

In lightsaber combat Dooku is insanely skilled. He stands as a peer to ROTS Kenobi in sabers(You in fact hold Dooku above Kenobi in sabers). SK on the other hand is roughly equivalent to Vader in lightsaber combat. So as of right now we have two separate scaling chains.

Dooku>/=ROTS Kenobi
SK~TFU Vader.

So how do these two different scaling chains connect? The key is Ben Kenobi. Ben Kenobi was evenly matched in his duel with ANH Vader despite having his saber skills atrophying for 20 years. At that point his saber skills are likely a far cry(or at least clearly lesser) compared to his skill in ROTS. So SK being comparable in saber combat to a Vader who was evenly matched with the aforementioned Ben Kenobi means in all likelihood, Dooku and SK are on entirely different levels when it comes to saber combat. If we combine the two scaling chains with Ben Kenobi serving as the kingpin we get:

Dooku>/=ROTS Kenobi>>Ben Kenobi=ANH Vader=TFU Vader~SK

To summarise: Dooku and SK are at least comparable in applicable force power but Dooku is far above SK in saber skill. Thus Dooku should definitely above SK in an all out scenario.

man, u were doing so well, until u said that dooku can ragdoll vader...

Ben Kenobi is a confirmed peer of ANH Vader, whether you like it or not. And Dooku has demonstrably shown he is capable of ragdolling force users of that caliber

i cant believe yall still use that old statement. u wanna tell me that all the novels and sources that say that a mentally unstable vader was evenly fighting, and very often pushing back obi wan are now shit cuz lucas said, in the 80s or something like that, that obi wan is a 6 and vader a 4? so all that info that says that vader is second strongest being the galaxy after sheev is now useless too? and vader being 80% of sheev now is shit cuz obi wan ranks higher than that? bruh, just no

Are you aware of how canon works in legends lorenzo. G Canon>C Canon. Unless you can show me when Lucas changed his mind on the stance, then it overrides any statements calling Vader the most powerful being in the galaxy. Also show me mathematically how Ben Kenobi being above Vader prevents Vader from being 80% of Sidious. Spoiler Alert:

i dont need to mention how that means that old ben could not only survive sheev's lightning, but also do even better job at it than vader did, right?

Vader lasting as long as he did against Sheev's lightning is riddled with circumstances and in no way reflects how Vader would normally fare against Sheev. In a normal situation, both Ben and Vader get one shotted by ROTJ Sheev.

Dooku wins this.

its really not riddled with anything. for one, vader had a broken leg, and a missing hand, while his suit was quite weak against eletricity, if thats what u mean with riddled. in a normal circumstance? why, is the lighting sheev used here not the fighting kind? maybe its the "no vader, that tickles kind"

I don't want my response to HP to get buried so I'm gonna stop right here. If you want to continue this discussion, we must do so elsewhere.

i care for it as much as u do, tbh

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:bruh

bruh

@Word Salad

I'm more than a little bit totally curious as to how you can claim how exhausted Starkiller was and this totally allows you to write off any sort of parity to Vader; yet at the same time claim that Starkiller totally ragdolled Vader after he had a totally new revelation that allowed him to totally break the chains between him and Vader. And this Vader was totally F'ed up when he got "Greydolled" as well.

The Force Unleashed wrote:
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.

---

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

Now if someone landed 3 lightsaber blows deep across their throat, shoulder, and thigh then that would be the end of a normal fight. But no, Vader still stands, albeit shakey and his servos are whining. Only then does Starkiller "Greydoll" a shakey Vader. Essentially you're using a severely beat down Vader getting lifted up by a guy who just received a LetGobiwan-tier revelation who then smashed him with missiles and a generator as proof that it was at will?

Not only this, but the opening was only caused because Vader was a little bit too slow to block an attack when both of them were waiting for such an opening to appear to end the fight. Vader then blocked the next blow but not the next two obviously. How much faster do you believe Starkiller moved when the emphasis was totally on Vader's lack of speed to deflect it in a move that surprised both? He found an opening and Vader was totally too slow to block it, but he still was able to react to it.

We already know Starkiller is faster than Vader:

"Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly."

---

Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely.

So if you're arguing some sort of amp predicated on a new mindset, then that is going to further the gap even more.

Even then, the assumption was that Vader only needed one small opening which Starkiller vowed not to give:

"His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits."

But Vader gave many openings and was capitalized on it by a totally new-mindset from Galen.

So we have a possible amp (unless you totally changed your tune), Starkiller almost landing a totally very similar blow earlier, Vader's blade moving too slow to block a blow though still moving, and Vader then becoming seriously totally damaged and Force raped.

For someone who argues that sand familiarity totally disproves the notion that Muslimfirstname Hett is anywhere near Kenobi, it's interesting how you disregard that small openings that lead to severe damage would play a part in Greydolling Vader [Emphasis yours].

Could Starkiller repeat the same performance against Vader without the revelation? Don't doubt it. But the fact that he needed one that you have totally argued in the past amps him... and Vader getting Greydolled involves some heavy context... I find it totally peculiar that you would exclude this? Sure he can beat Vader, but I think that showing does anything but prove that he can do this at will without softening Vader up first. Whereas when Dooku finds an opening when Kenobi is attacking Dooku's back, he can do it entirely with the Force, no?  

Also let's bring up personal lives since you totally want to go there as well. If you leave a small gap in your defense when fencing - again, you're totally one of the top 3 fencers in your country - but when you leave a small gap and get tagged by a brown kid; did he ragdoll you? Is he that much better than you? Or did perchance he exploit an opening that Lord HP Legenald The 1st left in his defense due mayhaps to a wild night of sugar drinking? When brown kids manage to catch you in a fencing duel, do you just throw down your helmet and proclaim to the crowd that you got Greydolled and it would totally always happen no matter what? Because the novel didn't make note of a giant power disparity but rather an opening being totally exploited [Emphasis writer]. That is a difference I believe we're leaving out. Starkiller may very well be better than Vader in all aspects, but he still needs to find and create openings to beat Vader after an extensive duel. It's not as simple as him deciding to win like say, Anakin totally would.

The sand is on your court now.

Starkiller gets cucked again

@Quorian Debatist @KingofBlades I'll respond when I get the chance, but I've got a lot to do this today (#busy 15-year-old), and if I'm going to respond to anyone it'll be Az because he's been waiting for a response for far longer than either of you; both of you decided to tune in on a debate you weren't part of.

Word Salad wrote:@Quorian Debatist @KingofBlades I'll respond when I get the chance, but I've got a lot to do this today (#busy 15-year-old), and if I'm going to respond to anyone it'll be Az because he's been waiting for a response for far longer than either of you; both of you decided to tune in on a debate you weren't part of.

Cool, what are you having for breakfast?

@Word Salad I couldn't sit idly by and watch my boy Dooku get disrespected.

Either Dooku or Caedus win this, Arcann comes as a close third while starkiller is outclassed.

@KingofBlades

The Salvation feat cannot be used to demonstrate superiority to Dooku lmao. At least not in any concrete fashion due to the situational circumstances of the feat. While the feat is undeniably more impressive than anything Dooku has to his name from a raw power pov, we don't know if Dooku would have succeeded if he was placed in such a situation. Due to the nebulous nature of such a comparison, I think it is more productive to base conclusions off of the enemies they have faced and how they fared against them.

I never disagreed with this...? My point is simply that Dooku doesn't have any raw power feats comparable to that, I fully accept the POV that if he scales to it to some degree then sure, he's comparable.

I will be building a scaling chain for Dooku's power and we'll where SK ought to fit in it. I'm sure you're well aware of Dooku's superiority over ROTS Kenobi and his ability do ragdoll Kenobi in the force(a stance you agree with). Such superiority is indicative of significant superiority in force power. Now Ben Kenobi is more powerful than Vader as of ANH per George Lucas. Ben Kenobi is at best =ROTS Kenobi in force power and at worst . So let's see what our possible scaling chain for force power looks like.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi>/=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader>TFU Vader. Alternatively a more conservative chain is also possible.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader=TFU Vader.

In either case, the gap between Vader and Dooku is enormous. Dooku should be easily capable of ragdolling Vader. Now where would SK fit into these chains. Based on SK's performances against Vader, I don't see how its realistically possible for SK to be significantly more powerful in the force than Dooku. Sure he's been able to stand as combatively on par with Vader despite being exhausted, but I don't see how that is beyond Dooku's power when Dooku has been able to ragdoll a superior of Vader in Kenobi despite being fatigued himself. In fact I think it is possible that Dooku's feat of ragdolling a superior of Vader while fatigued is actually more impressive than being combatively on par with Vader when exhausted. Even if I don't go that far, I think it should still be evident that they are at the very least comparable in applicable force power Now let's move on to their skill levels which is where Dooku blatantly outsrips SK imo.

This entire paragraph is simply you claiming that Dooku's ragdolling of Kenobi in ROTS is comparable to SK fighting as near equals with Vader while exhausted without actually proving it. Starkiller's reserves were almost empty, and he struggled with feats well below his paygrade prior to even fighting the army of Starkiller clones, and after he'd fought them he was more exhausted than he'd ever felt before (including a time at the start of the novel when he was on the verge of death from wasting away Force reserves for 13 days straight). SK was in such a weakened state that it's impossible to gauge an actual chain between the two; if you want to look at an actual one see the below (AP style):

Peak!Starkiller>>>Exhausted!Starkiller>>>Army of Clones>>>Vader.

Starkiller blasts away an army of clones that could have "easily" overpowered Vader (while performing below his base due to being exhausted after The Salvation feat), and it clearly wasn't maximum effort given that he still had enough left in the tank to fight Vader afterwards and win. And if we look in comparison to your chain(s), the gaps are considerably larger:

Peak!Starkiller>>>Exhausted!Starkiller>>>Army of Clones>>>Vader.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi>/=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader>TFU Vader.

Count Dooku>>>ROTS Kenobi=Ben Kenobi>ANH Vader=TFU Vader.

Moreover, if you want to look at other comparisons we have Starkiller ragdolling Vader (as cited previously). Now, while this may at first seem equivalent to Dooku's ragdolling of Kenobi, we have to acknowledge that Dooku ragdolling Kenobi was largely through speed and skill, exploiting lapses in Kenobi's defences, meanwhile, SK straight up renders Vader helpless through pure, raw power. In both comparisons (assuming parity between Kenobi and Vader), Dooku comes off looking worse. Of course, we have to consider you were taking the more conservative approach, so I wouldn't say this establishes SK as better than Dooku, but still, it demonstrates how your comparison is fundamentally flawed.

In lightsaber combat Dooku is insanely skilled. He stands as a peer to ROTS Kenobi in sabers(You in fact hold Dooku above Kenobi in sabers).

Why do you keep on citing my opinion as though it's some sort of Holy Grail, even though I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote here?

SK on the other hand is roughly equivalent to Vader in lightsaber combat. So as of right now we have two separate scaling chains.

Dooku>/=ROTS Kenobi
SK~TFU Vader.

The latter claim is completely unsubstantiated and just flat out false, as soon as Starkiller realises he doesn't need to hate Vader in order to beat him, he gains "a new strength" and the fight becomes decisively one-sided, Starkiller puts him on the back foot, and strikes him repeatedly in a short span of time.

The rest of your post is kinda irrelevant given that your argument was contingent on SK being ~ Vader in sabers.

In summary:

-Raw power comparisons with other characters do not favour Dooku.
-While I'm agreed Dooku is a better duellist, you haven't proven it's to any significant extent.

Btw, I know I said I wouldn't respond, but I re-read your post and I realised that while it's reasonably lengthy it'd only take a quick 5-10 minutes to respond to, given that most of it is fluff.