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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 12:48 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:There's nothing Wyyrlok has that's putting him even close to Exar Kun.
Agreed
Quorian Debatist
Quorian Debatist

Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 2:05 pm
I won't bore you with sourcebook quotes or anything outside of the 4 novels I drew from (Bloodlines, I, Jedi, Dark Apprentice, and Champions), as I feel that's unnecessary here. If you need further examples of anything I state here, I will go that route, but I will try to explain things based on (my own) logic, and based off a handful of novel quotes. I've apparently been pressured into responding super quick, so that's a reason as well.

Or as some might state:
"I'm really lazy, I'm tired, and this wasn't my best, please believe the words that follow!"

The Divine Source wrote:ILS, I'm gonna be honest, I find it hard to believe even Vong Krayt "stands on his own" where feats are concerned compared to Exar Kun, though it depends on whether or not you're responding in the context of the Malak quote being true or Kun having some sort of low ceiling in general

I'll set aside going deep into the Malak stuff here as the only sort of "limitation" here seems to be a limitation to Kun as well after hierarchies and characters were set in place. The contradiction created by relying on these quotes hurts Kun's placement more than it effects Malak - IE, Kun = DE Sheev, TPM Sheev > all Sith Lords. It's a nasty rabbit hole that directly shows how beneficial the time was for Kun's quotes due to only a handful of Sith created at the time. Of course everything early on will be compared to Sheev. As things coalesce however, we are able to establish tiers between many characters as opposed to the few before. As such, Kun became sub TPM Sheev level, and the Malak quote happened. To my recollection Kun has never been compared favorably to Sheev again after the Malak quote, nor has he been stated to be above Malak. The only thing that has been contradicted, has been Kun's early placement; again, due in part to being created in a favorable timeline. Retro activity however has taken care of that as we've seen, and I won't bore you with the quotes that show TPM/ROTS Sheev > all as I'm sure you've seen them.

Basically, if we try and attack Malak via Sheev quotes, and therefore it doesn't count, then we can't excuse Kun from the same scrutiny. You're trying to bypass a quote via the exact same quotes that limit Kun. Had the situations been flipped, I've no doubt Spirit Malak would have also been compared to the most famous enemies Luke fought, but that doesn't mean his power can't be "lowered" to adapt to the times. Nor does it mean we're taking away feats from Kun. All Malak is doing is piggybacking off Kun in the easiest way possible; he's not pushing Kun down. And one potential Sith slipping through the cracks does not throw the whole system out of whack.

You didn't outright state this, but I have the feeling you're leading there, so excuse me if I strawmanned you a little.

The Divine Source wrote: As far as feats, Spirit Kun bolstered a (relatively) nascent Kyp Durron's capabilities to insanely high levels. I'd like to pre-emptively thank AP for these quotes:

Couple issues with this being a showing tell of Kun's power. The first of course being that the test subject - Corran Horn - was complete crap at the time. He was a non-impressive Jedi who was eclipsed by Gantoris, and of course Kyp due to his training with Kun:

"Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good. Kyp gave us hope that reestablishing the Jedi Order could be and would be done."

So what does this mean? You have a being who only has enough power to withstand one force push from an unamped Kyp. If you start adding any more stress against this shield, it is going to break, or at least be bypassed to some degree, and it is going to be overwhelming for Horn. Let's keep in mind that Kyp was being amped by a being that famously ragdolled Horn later on in the book by himself. So once you start adding any power - let alone Kun's - it is going to be massively overwhelming for a relatively weak being like Corran Horn was. Corran Horn would be lucky if he were PT Younglin Padawan level at that stage in time. So we have to put that into perspective.

How many Padawans do we think it would take to break and ragdoll 1 single Padawan's shield, for example? I wouldn't imagine it would be too many to become outrageous for the defendant. That's just with similar powered jedi, let alone from two beings much higher than Corran.
I know you're focusing on the "wind aspect" of it, but that's obviously hyperbole... unless we think it ramped up 20-30 times and didn't knock Corran out on impact? Actually, looking at a random classification site:
https://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/wind_speeds.html

It isn't too ridiculous for it to be possible when thinking about the actual power levels, which flows into the next part:



Second off, this was Kyp after like a week of training with Kun. You should hope Kun would be able to far eclipse him, or give him a massive boost in power. Kyp - while powerful at this stage in time - was not powerful in comparison to what he had become against Luke Skywalker. Right after the Corran skirmish, he has escaped the Temple and was causing havoc across the galaxy. For someone who had just spent a week learning all kinds of Sith tactics, it would make sense he reflected on his training and grew more powerful, no? When he eventually came back, we got the infamous "Darth Vader" line, as well as him using the Nexus against Luke. So we only really have information on how powerful he became afterwards, but not how powerful he was against Corran. So you can't build off his level against Luke and state Kun amped a Vader level from "light breeze to gale force" in stature. You have to work within the context of the time it happened, and who it happened against. Kyp was a powerful, though unquantifiable being at the time Kun amped him. All we really know for sure of his power, is that he did not break Corran's shield unamped. Surely we wouldn't state that puts him near even say... early S2 Ahsoka, right?
That's what you have to realize when you're dealing with these levels; Kun amped a possibly Padawan tier being to overwhelming levels, but there is a lot of expansion available within those tiers. So much so, that it's hard to put that in perspective of higher levels. For example, say Vitiate empowered a Padawan to kill another Padawan. We wouldn't say that reflects on his ability to defeat Darth Sidious. It sounds awesome when just presented as such, but it doesn't make sense against a possibly top 10 Sith. Fodder is being empowered to ragdoll fodder, not high level beings.




And third. Both Kun and Kyp were getting empowered by this merger.

"Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities."


Which essentially creates a sort of "vapaad" loop if that best explains it. It wasn't just a one way street of Kun pumping power into Kyp, it was mutually beneficial for both parties in terms of power. Kun was feeding off the power he was awakening in Kyp, which if taken as absolute, it would allow an argument to be had to where Kun continues to basically create new power to pump into Kyp. There's no theoretical limit if this is true... not that I'm stating it is true, just a possible avenue to go down or think about.

It wasn't entirely Kun's power in summation, which you touch on down below. He's an Elder Kai that feeds on the power he supplies.



I think those three reasons should help put that in perspective. Moving on.


The Divine Source wrote:It's clear in the text that Kyp working on his own is nowhere near as effective or powerful as when Exar Kun is reinforcing his capabilities. Furthermore, Kun is doing all of this while masking it all from Luke Skywalker who is only 15 meters away. This is a guy who could sense something like Palpatine merely empowering his dark side adepts from across the galaxy, and he's completely oblivious to Kun's machinations while in his direct vicinity. This leads Corran to believe that even at this point, Spirit Kun is a force more powerful than he cared to imagine existing:

While this sounds nice on paper, Luke's senses aren't exactly the greatest of senses when he isn't tuning in. It's not really reflective of his sheer power, as Luke almost at his peak had Lumiya walk right past him shielded by Darth Caedus.




Not saying it's the exact same thing, but it does show a distinct lack of senses on Luke's part. So, if he's not actively searching for another presence, why would we assume a being - who is trying to hide from him - would be sensed? This is not exactly the most combat applicable power as well, nor was Sheev exactly secretive about his doings after a time. Kun however, has a similar hiding feat when he was still fairly new to the Sith game. He walked into Ossus and one shotted Odan-Urr without everyone immediately sensing it. Hiding power, while an exertion of power sure, does not give us an idea of the scope of power available. This was an assumption by Jedi Detective Corran Horn, who never seemed to jump on the idea that Kun was far beyond Luke after witnessing more events.


The Divine Source wrote:Now, it might be easy to just handwave this by saying, "Oh Kun is just unlocking Kyp's latent potential," but I've come to realize this is a pretty rudimentary explanation to a more nuanced situation. I would honestly liken Kun's shenanigans with Kyp more to Muur's relationship with Celeste, Nox's relationship with the sith ghosts, or Valkorion's relationship with the Outlander in KOTFE. In all of these scenarios, there seems to be a more additive boost between the spirit and the host than an exponential, latent ability-unlocking boost: Krayt spurs on Celeste to draw on Muur's power to fuel her own, Nox draws on the ghosts to do the same, and Outlander draws on Valkorion's ghost to...do the same. The only difference appears to be whether or not the host is capable of drawing on the power of the spirit effectively without blowing away their body, and that may be more based on their potential: Celeste is able to effectively channel Muur's energy, Kyp is able to effectively channel Kun's energy, but someone like Nox is not capable of effectively channeling the power of the sith ghosts until she augments her body with Rakatan technology and fully conquers the spirits mentally. So I think it's insanely impressive that Kun is able to bolster a nascent Kyp's power to the extent that he can utterly overwhelm Grandmaster Luke Skywalker, who is using "all his defensive techniques" to try and stop it. People have tried to lowball the impressiveness of this feat by mentioning Luke being somehow hindered among other things, but when we're talking about a guy who was able to give Kueller (a force user more powerful than Darth Vader and arguably Joruus C'baoth, who in turn is far more powerful than Darth Vader via quotes) a damn solid fight when "at best" 10% of his full capability, I'm not sure it really effing matters.  Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 1306544554  (Funny enough, Mara believes that Spirit Kun is more powerful than Kueller).

I won't necessarily disagree with the top part, but I will cut in right about at the Luke part.

The issue with the Luke fight, is that he never gets overpowered directly, and he gets effectively sundered by an attack that Kyp learns and retains knowledge of after Kun is dead:




What this means, is that Kyp on his own has power to sunder a spirit. Obviously, I'm not saying he could have done this to Luke by himself, just that it wasn't entirely Kun that did it. I believe there's some quotes in some sourcebooks that state similar, but I said I wouldn't use them, so these will have to suffice:

"He had listened to the dark teachings of Exar Kun. He had struck down his teacher and Jedi Master."

"Kyp was intimidated to be alone with the man he had defeated through Exar Kun's evil powers."

"The dark lies and goading of Exar Kun had caused Kyp to kill his own brother, to threaten the life of his friend Han Solo, to strike down his Jedi teacher."

We know he had the evil powers, and we know he struck down Luke. Which means he was the one who separated his spirit. Not saying you're specifically arguing against, just that it gets misconstrued in favor of purely attributing it to Kun, which of course, lacks the evidence required to state it was entirely him that did that part.



Next, we'll get back to what I stated, and that is, that he never gets overpowered directly. Luke does not lose in a battle of power in this fight.
Luke gets overwhelmed by a power he has no defense against. He states as such in the quote I posted.[*] He's facing a power he's never encountered before that he has no counter against. Think of Savage Opress against Dooku. All he wanted to figure out was how to counter lightning, and Dooku would not teach it to him because it made him controllable. It made him vulnerable. He had no defense against it past just lashing out because he didn't understand it at all, and he could do nothing in the face of it. That was Luke. For all the power Luke had, he had never encountered an attack like this before. It could bypass any defense he could put up because Luke didn't know how to defend against it. It wasn't too much power for Luke, it was just something that slipped through. Think telepathy in Dragonball, or Mother Talzin's magic (conveniently Luke had no defense against Geth almost exploding his head a few years prior). It's just not something he's used to. And why would he be?
Luke was only trained for a handful of years to combat rather straight forward combatants in Vader and Sheev. He was trained to be a Jedi Knight in an era designed around Vader/Sheev, not ancient Sith magic. All of the defenses Ben and Yoda had taught him were designed to fight his father. And iirc, they even hilariously neglected to teach him how to defend against lightning as well; which goes to show his training was severely geared towards getting his power and basics up. So with that bit of info, why would we assume Luke's lack of training would extend beyond Luke, or show a limit to his raw power? Luke was one of the most undertrained Jedi ever in an era lacking information, and he had to train himself largely. Luke would very likely lose every fight against Kun if Kun spammed this tactic... I'm not denying that. It doesn't show aside from esoteric powers, that Kun is more powerful. It's just a weakness, his kryptonite. Luke was specifically (under)trained to deal with one thing. Once Kun employed his wrestling against the pure boxer, he had no defense.

The power wasn't blasting through his force shields, and then causing large amounts of physical damage to him. This isn't Revan. It was just bypassing every defense he had (including not melting his skin) because it was arguably purely spiritual in nature by a couple high tier beings.


---


About Kueller, he's another one who benefits from the time he was written in. He gets compared to Palpatine as well numerous times, and even an earlier Sheev which should be around ROTS. The writer had the benefit of us not knowing exactly how powerful Sheev was intended at that time, so it was presumed a safe bet to compare him to an "unknown" Sheev at an earlier stage in time. Now it makes a little less sense, like most things due to how powerful Sheev was during PT. Which is why it's better to let things play out and accept those quotes than accept quotes as the gospel within a limited timeframe. Either way, Malak would still be above via Kun limits.
 Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 1076326320


This would put Luke 10x Palpatine compared to the unknown he was against Kun. However, that's assuming the events happened in close proximity to each other. Kueller died in 17ABY, which gives him a full 6 years of growth after the Kun fiasco. This is with him training students and actually having capable sparring partners. His growth could have been immense, his growth could have been minimal, we don't know. But Kueller facing off against a severely hindered Luke and still being weaker than Kun does not exactly raise Kun due to the nature of it. We don't know how Luke relates to Sheev in 11ABY, but if we accept the quotes as fact prior to PT:


  • Kun is somewhere around Sheev's level
  • Kueller is somewhere around Sheev's level
  • Kun is above Kueller
  • 10 percent Luke with broken ankles is close to Kueller


Which means there's a possible small gap between Kun, Kueller and Sheev, and Luke in 6 years gets 10 times more powerful than Kueller. This doesn't exactly help Kun by bringing up Luke's hindrance. Especially not when you try and build Kun as close to Luke based on the events that unfolded back then. So I'm not exactly sure of the relevance that Kueller has here, since it basically amounts to 15 percent 17ABY Luke for Kun... maybe?


The Divine Source wrote:There's also the fact that Kun literally expels this man's (Luke's) soul out of his body, and he can't return until Kun's essence is entirely dissipated/erased/sent to chaos. This notion is further supported by a quote from TCSWE AP pointed out in another thread. All in all, I just don't really see how Wyyrlok compares to the power and sheer versatility that Kun presented in JA. I'm not going to address Ant's concern about Kun's theoretical "ceiling" based on Sidious' most powerful quotes, as those can be either worked around entirely by bifurcating Spirit Kun and JA Kun (though I'm not sure what evidence supports this) or you can even possibly argue that TPM Sidious > Kun quotes are contradicted by actual events that canonically (in the context of legends) happened, though you could say this is a longshot.

Well, now we get into the actual spirit part of it.

Kun was weaker than Luke as a spirit. I think we can safely accept this, right? So we need to explain this while keeping in line with the argument as a whole. Already, Kun had knowledge being a spirit for 4000 years, and he had knowledge on how to make someone into a spirit either through rituals on himself, or through Luke. We can assume Kun was well versed in spirit lore. Luke wasn't, at all. Luke started out knowing absolutely nothing, and he started out with a "lock" already placed around his body. This wasn't a case of Kun overpowering Luke everytime he tried returning to his body, this was a case of something being cast over Luke's defenseless body (likely a spell?). It's another one of those feats that sounds good on paper, but doesn't exactly hold true once you examine the context.

Luke as a spirit was > Kun the entire time they were both spirits, so why couldn't Luke just overpower his hold? Once you think about that you realize it again, steers away from raw power and more towards magic/esoteric powers. Something was holding Luke away from his body and it wasn't something he could just force blast away. I think it's fair to say one of the greatest decaf_wizards in the entirety of Star Wars could create a spell tying Luke's spirit to his own, which wouldn't require an active exertion of power on his part, but to merely exist.

This part is a little headcanon-y, but we don't have an official explanation to my recollection, so we have to look at the alternatives with all factors put into place (limitation quotes, no defenses, experience, etc). We already know Luke has no defense against his powers when alive, so why would he have a greater defense against powers put in place before he woke up in the spirit realm? To rend a spirit asunder through means not purely through raw power, and to keep that spirit rent should work hand in hand. Basically Kun's knowledge of this sort of area far exceeded Luke's and he knew how to counter it through tricks and traps.

Kun could not defeat Luke's spirit. Kun could not kill Luke. Kun's plan boiled down to just trapping Luke forever (iirc) and he wanted his physical body killed to stop Luke from ever figuring out a way to return. That's not a showing of a superior being. That's a showing of a being who needs to take advantage of a lack of experience to succeed.

The only time Luke and Kun's wills/power were pitted against each other on an even plane, it had Luke passing through Kun and making him recoil/run away.


The Divine Source wrote:And let's be real, even if Kun's ceiling is slightly below TPM Sidious, that's still pretty far above Wyyrlok.  Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 2266747095
And hence the whole issue with using JA, and largely flows back to all the points I made here. Power aside, the points you've made in regards to JA have been esoteric in nature and something Luke has no defense against because he's never encountered ancient Sith magics before.

Wyyrlok has. Wyyrlok might be one of the most studied Sith in history, and it would be crazy to think he's not learned of these sorts of attacks. And yes, I get that Kun's specific knowledge was lost, but Luke/Kyp's knowledge wasn't, and very probably that knowledge fell in W3's lap. Assumption for sure, but I believe it a safe one. The most famous Jedi in the galaxy's encounter with one of the most famous Sith Lord of all times? That's too tantalizing a tale to not examine.

Not saying W3 wins as he's... something I guess, but I do think him more capable of countering Sith magic than 11ABY Luke. So for Kun to win, his best bet would be to raw power W3 out, which I'd wager he could do myself, but that's besides the point.
ILS
ILS

Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 2:19 pm
Just part of the way reading through this (I will edit this post as I go), but yeah, one point that seems important to note is that Kyp has tons of latent potential, Luke IIRC speculated even more than himself in that comic... so with someone as masterful as Kun at the helm, with them synchronising their powers and abilities freely, you have Kyp's familiarity and control over his own body and power, and then you have Kun with the necessary mastery to tap into and draw out dormant power that Kyp otherwise lacks the skill to control properly. That, alone, IMO, completely invalidates any showing Kyp did while amped by Kun if you want to try and use it as a means of gauging Kun's own power in his own body, or the power of his spirit itself.

Edit: yes, the other issue with the feat is that much of it owed to a lack of knowledge on how to properly defend against the tendrils, rather than simply being overpowered. Hearken back to how quickly Bane vs Kas'im shifted in the latters favour when he used Jar'kai, a form Bane had virtually no knowledge of. Bane went from slapping Kas'im around like a red headed step child to being destroyed (at least that's how I remember it).


Last edited by ILS on April 23rd 2019, 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
DarthAnt66
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 2:20 pm
Going off what @Quorian Debatist said, note that the Jedi of the time actually thought there was a direct correlation between Force concealment and overall Force power. Luke repeatedly states his belief that Obi-Wan and Yoda were more powerful than Palpatine specifically because they concealed their presence from him, and he even said that the fact they did it all the way on Tatooine or Dagobah made no difference than if they did it in the Imperial Palace. It's likely Corran applied this false understanding of the ability when deducing that Kun must be more powerful than Luke if he hid his activity and power from him.
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 3:23 pm
Well... that was decisive. Backing Wyyrlok.
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 3:35 pm
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 8:45 pm
@Quorian Debatist wrote:I won't bore you with sourcebook quotes or anything outside of the 4 novels I drew from (Bloodlines, I, Jedi, Dark Apprentice, and Champions), as I feel that's unnecessary here. If you need further examples of anything I state here, I will go that route, but I will try to explain things based on (my own) logic, and based off a handful of novel quotes. I've apparently been pressured into responding super quick, so that's a reason as well.

Or as some might state:
"I'm really lazy, I'm tired, and this wasn't my best, please believe the words that follow!"

The Divine Source wrote:ILS, I'm gonna be honest, I find it hard to believe even Vong Krayt "stands on his own" where feats are concerned compared to Exar Kun, though it depends on whether or not you're responding in the context of the Malak quote being true or Kun having some sort of low ceiling in general

I'll set aside going deep into the Malak stuff here as the only sort of "limitation" here seems to be a limitation to Kun as well after hierarchies and characters were set in place. The contradiction created by relying on these quotes hurts Kun's placement more than it effects Malak - IE, Kun = DE Sheev, TPM Sheev > all Sith Lords. It's a nasty rabbit hole that directly shows how beneficial the time was for Kun's quotes due to only a handful of Sith created at the time. Of course everything early on will be compared to Sheev. As things coalesce however, we are able to establish tiers between many characters as opposed to the few before. As such, Kun became sub TPM Sheev level, and the Malak quote happened. To my recollection Kun has never been compared favorably to Sheev again after the Malak quote, nor has he been stated to be above Malak. The only thing that has been contradicted, has been Kun's early placement; again, due in part to being created in a favorable timeline. Retro activity however has taken care of that as we've seen, and I won't bore you with the quotes that show TPM/ROTS Sheev > all as I'm sure you've seen them.

Basically, if we try and attack Malak via Sheev quotes, and therefore it doesn't count, then we can't excuse Kun from the same scrutiny. You're trying to bypass a quote via the exact same quotes that limit Kun. Had the situations been flipped, I've no doubt Spirit Malak would have also been compared to the most famous enemies Luke fought, but that doesn't mean his power can't be "lowered" to adapt to the times. Nor does it mean we're taking away feats from Kun. All Malak is doing is piggybacking off Kun in the easiest way possible; he's not pushing Kun down. And one potential Sith slipping through the cracks does not throw the whole system out of whack.

You didn't outright state this, but I have the feeling you're leading there, so excuse me if I strawmanned you a little.

The Divine Source wrote: As far as feats, Spirit Kun bolstered a (relatively) nascent Kyp Durron's capabilities to insanely high levels. I'd like to pre-emptively thank AP for these quotes:

Couple issues with this being a showing tell of Kun's power. The first of course being that the test subject - Corran Horn - was complete crap at the time. He was a non-impressive Jedi who was eclipsed by Gantoris, and of course Kyp due to his training with Kun:

"Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good. Kyp gave us hope that reestablishing the Jedi Order could be and would be done."

So what does this mean? You have a being who only has enough power to withstand one force push from an unamped Kyp. If you start adding any more stress against this shield, it is going to break, or at least be bypassed to some degree, and it is going to be overwhelming for Horn. Let's keep in mind that Kyp was being amped by a being that famously ragdolled Horn later on in the book by himself. So once you start adding any power - let alone Kun's - it is going to be massively overwhelming for a relatively weak being like Corran Horn was. Corran Horn would be lucky if he were PT Younglin Padawan level at that stage in time. So we have to put that into perspective.

How many Padawans do we think it would take to break and ragdoll 1 single Padawan's shield, for example? I wouldn't imagine it would be too many to become outrageous for the defendant. That's just with similar powered jedi, let alone from two beings much higher than Corran.
I know you're focusing on the "wind aspect" of it, but that's obviously hyperbole... unless we think it ramped up 20-30 times and didn't knock Corran out on impact? Actually, looking at a random classification site:
https://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Atmosphere/wind_speeds.html

It isn't too ridiculous for it to be possible when thinking about the actual power levels, which flows into the next part:



Second off, this was Kyp after like a week of training with Kun. You should hope Kun would be able to far eclipse him, or give him a massive boost in power. Kyp - while powerful at this stage in time - was not powerful in comparison to what he had become against Luke Skywalker. Right after the Corran skirmish, he has escaped the Temple and was causing havoc across the galaxy. For someone who had just spent a week learning all kinds of Sith tactics, it would make sense he reflected on his training and grew more powerful, no? When he eventually came back, we got the infamous "Darth Vader" line, as well as him using the Nexus against Luke. So we only really have information on how powerful he became afterwards, but not how powerful he was against Corran. So you can't build off his level against Luke and state Kun amped a Vader level from "light breeze to gale force" in stature. You have to work within the context of the time it happened, and who it happened against. Kyp was a powerful, though unquantifiable being at the time Kun amped him. All we really know for sure of his power, is that he did not break Corran's shield unamped. Surely we wouldn't state that puts him near even say... early S2 Ahsoka, right?
That's what you have to realize when you're dealing with these levels; Kun amped a possibly Padawan tier being to overwhelming levels, but there is a lot of expansion available within those tiers. So much so, that it's hard to put that in perspective of higher levels. For example, say Vitiate empowered a Padawan to kill another Padawan. We wouldn't say that reflects on his ability to defeat Darth Sidious. It sounds awesome when just presented as such, but it doesn't make sense against a possibly top 10 Sith. Fodder is being empowered to ragdoll fodder, not high level beings.




And third. Both Kun and Kyp were getting empowered by this merger.

"Behind him Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities."


Which essentially creates a sort of "vapaad" loop if that best explains it. It wasn't just a one way street of Kun pumping power into Kyp, it was mutually beneficial for both parties in terms of power. Kun was feeding off the power he was awakening in Kyp, which if taken as absolute, it would allow an argument to be had to where Kun continues to basically create new power to pump into Kyp. There's no theoretical limit if this is true... not that I'm stating it is true, just a possible avenue to go down or think about.

It wasn't entirely Kun's power in summation, which you touch on down below. He's an Elder Kai that feeds on the power he supplies.



I think those three reasons should help put that in perspective. Moving on.


The Divine Source wrote:It's clear in the text that Kyp working on his own is nowhere near as effective or powerful as when Exar Kun is reinforcing his capabilities. Furthermore, Kun is doing all of this while masking it all from Luke Skywalker who is only 15 meters away. This is a guy who could sense something like Palpatine merely empowering his dark side adepts from across the galaxy, and he's completely oblivious to Kun's machinations while in his direct vicinity. This leads Corran to believe that even at this point, Spirit Kun is a force more powerful than he cared to imagine existing:

While this sounds nice on paper, Luke's senses aren't exactly the greatest of senses when he isn't tuning in. It's not really reflective of his sheer power, as Luke almost at his peak had Lumiya walk right past him shielded by Darth Caedus.




Not saying it's the exact same thing, but it does show a distinct lack of senses on Luke's part. So, if he's not actively searching for another presence, why would we assume a being - who is trying to hide from him - would be sensed? This is not exactly the most combat applicable power as well, nor was Sheev exactly secretive about his doings after a time. Kun however, has a similar hiding feat when he was still fairly new to the Sith game. He walked into Ossus and one shotted Odan-Urr without everyone immediately sensing it. Hiding power, while an exertion of power sure, does not give us an idea of the scope of power available. This was an assumption by Jedi Detective Corran Horn, who never seemed to jump on the idea that Kun was far beyond Luke after witnessing more events.


The Divine Source wrote:Now, it might be easy to just handwave this by saying, "Oh Kun is just unlocking Kyp's latent potential," but I've come to realize this is a pretty rudimentary explanation to a more nuanced situation. I would honestly liken Kun's shenanigans with Kyp more to Muur's relationship with Celeste, Nox's relationship with the sith ghosts, or Valkorion's relationship with the Outlander in KOTFE. In all of these scenarios, there seems to be a more additive boost between the spirit and the host than an exponential, latent ability-unlocking boost: Krayt spurs on Celeste to draw on Muur's power to fuel her own, Nox draws on the ghosts to do the same, and Outlander draws on Valkorion's ghost to...do the same. The only difference appears to be whether or not the host is capable of drawing on the power of the spirit effectively without blowing away their body, and that may be more based on their potential: Celeste is able to effectively channel Muur's energy, Kyp is able to effectively channel Kun's energy, but someone like Nox is not capable of effectively channeling the power of the sith ghosts until she augments her body with Rakatan technology and fully conquers the spirits mentally. So I think it's insanely impressive that Kun is able to bolster a nascent Kyp's power to the extent that he can utterly overwhelm Grandmaster Luke Skywalker, who is using "all his defensive techniques" to try and stop it. People have tried to lowball the impressiveness of this feat by mentioning Luke being somehow hindered among other things, but when we're talking about a guy who was able to give Kueller (a force user more powerful than Darth Vader and arguably Joruus C'baoth, who in turn is far more powerful than Darth Vader via quotes) a damn solid fight when "at best" 10% of his full capability, I'm not sure it really effing matters.  Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 1306544554  (Funny enough, Mara believes that Spirit Kun is more powerful than Kueller).

I won't necessarily disagree with the top part, but I will cut in right about at the Luke part.

The issue with the Luke fight, is that he never gets overpowered directly, and he gets effectively sundered by an attack that Kyp learns and retains knowledge of after Kun is dead:




What this means, is that Kyp on his own has power to sunder a spirit. Obviously, I'm not saying he could have done this to Luke by himself, just that it wasn't entirely Kun that did it. I believe there's some quotes in some sourcebooks that state similar, but I said I wouldn't use them, so these will have to suffice:

"He had listened to the dark teachings of Exar Kun. He had struck down his teacher and Jedi Master."

"Kyp was intimidated to be alone with the man he had defeated through Exar Kun's evil powers."

"The dark lies and goading of Exar Kun had caused Kyp to kill his own brother, to threaten the life of his friend Han Solo, to strike down his Jedi teacher."

We know he had the evil powers, and we know he struck down Luke. Which means he was the one who separated his spirit. Not saying you're specifically arguing against, just that it gets misconstrued in favor of purely attributing it to Kun, which of course, lacks the evidence required to state it was entirely him that did that part.



Next, we'll get back to what I stated, and that is, that he never gets overpowered directly. Luke does not lose in a battle of power in this fight.
Luke gets overwhelmed by a power he has no defense against. He states as such in the quote I posted.
[*] He's facing a power he's never encountered before that he has no counter against. Think of Savage Opress against Dooku. All he wanted to figure out was how to counter lightning, and Dooku would not teach it to him because it made him controllable. It made him vulnerable. He had no defense against it past just lashing out because he didn't understand it at all, and he could do nothing in the face of it. That was Luke. For all the power Luke had, he had never encountered an attack like this before. It could bypass any defense he could put up because Luke didn't know how to defend against it. It wasn't too much power for Luke, it was just something that slipped through. Think telepathy in Dragonball, or Mother Talzin's magic (conveniently Luke had no defense against Geth almost exploding his head a few years prior). It's just not something he's used to. And why would he be?
Luke was only trained for a handful of years to combat rather straight forward combatants in Vader and Sheev. He was trained to be a Jedi Knight in an era designed around Vader/Sheev, not ancient Sith magic. All of the defenses Ben and Yoda had taught him were designed to fight his father. And iirc, they even hilariously neglected to teach him how to defend against lightning as well; which goes to show his training was severely geared towards getting his power and basics up. So with that bit of info, why would we assume Luke's lack of training would extend beyond Luke, or show a limit to his raw power? Luke was one of the most undertrained Jedi ever in an era lacking information, and he had to train himself largely. Luke would very likely lose every fight against Kun if Kun spammed this tactic... I'm not denying that. It doesn't show aside from esoteric powers, that Kun is more powerful. It's just a weakness, his kryptonite. Luke was specifically (under)trained to deal with one thing. Once Kun employed his wrestling against the pure boxer, he had no defense.

The power wasn't blasting through his force shields, and then causing large amounts of physical damage to him. This isn't Revan. It was just bypassing every defense he had (including not melting his skin) because it was arguably purely spiritual in nature by a couple high tier beings.


---


About Kueller, he's another one who benefits from the time he was written in. He gets compared to Palpatine as well numerous times, and even an earlier Sheev which should be around ROTS. The writer had the benefit of us not knowing exactly how powerful Sheev was intended at that time, so it was presumed a safe bet to compare him to an "unknown" Sheev at an earlier stage in time. Now it makes a little less sense, like most things due to how powerful Sheev was during PT. Which is why it's better to let things play out and accept those quotes than accept quotes as the gospel within a limited timeframe. Either way, Malak would still be above via Kun limits.
 Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 1076326320


This would put Luke 10x Palpatine compared to the unknown he was against Kun. However, that's assuming the events happened in close proximity to each other. Kueller died in 17ABY, which gives him a full 6 years of growth after the Kun fiasco. This is with him training students and actually having capable sparring partners. His growth could have been immense, his growth could have been minimal, we don't know. But Kueller facing off against a severely hindered Luke and still being weaker than Kun does not exactly raise Kun due to the nature of it. We don't know how Luke relates to Sheev in 11ABY, but if we accept the quotes as fact prior to PT:


  • Kun is somewhere around Sheev's level
  • Kueller is somewhere around Sheev's level
  • Kun is above Kueller
  • 10 percent Luke with broken ankles is close to Kueller


Which means there's a possible small gap between Kun, Kueller and Sheev, and Luke in 6 years gets 10 times more powerful than Kueller. This doesn't exactly help Kun by bringing up Luke's hindrance. Especially not when you try and build Kun as close to Luke based on the events that unfolded back then. So I'm not exactly sure of the relevance that Kueller has here, since it basically amounts to 15 percent 17ABY Luke for Kun... maybe?


The Divine Source wrote:There's also the fact that Kun literally expels this man's (Luke's) soul out of his body, and he can't return until Kun's essence is entirely dissipated/erased/sent to chaos. This notion is further supported by a quote from TCSWE AP pointed out in another thread. All in all, I just don't really see how Wyyrlok compares to the power and sheer versatility that Kun presented in JA. I'm not going to address Ant's concern about Kun's theoretical "ceiling" based on Sidious' most powerful quotes, as those can be either worked around entirely by bifurcating Spirit Kun and JA Kun (though I'm not sure what evidence supports this) or you can even possibly argue that TPM Sidious > Kun quotes are contradicted by actual events that canonically (in the context of legends) happened, though you could say this is a longshot.

Well, now we get into the actual spirit part of it.

Kun was weaker than Luke as a spirit. I think we can safely accept this, right? So we need to explain this while keeping in line with the argument as a whole. Already, Kun had knowledge being a spirit for 4000 years, and he had knowledge on how to make someone into a spirit either through rituals on himself, or through Luke. We can assume Kun was well versed in spirit lore. Luke wasn't, at all. Luke started out knowing absolutely nothing, and he started out with a "lock" already placed around his body. This wasn't a case of Kun overpowering Luke everytime he tried returning to his body, this was a case of something being cast over Luke's defenseless body (likely a spell?). It's another one of those feats that sounds good on paper, but doesn't exactly hold true once you examine the context.

Luke as a spirit was > Kun the entire time they were both spirits, so why couldn't Luke just overpower his hold? Once you think about that you realize it again, steers away from raw power and more towards magic/esoteric powers. Something was holding Luke away from his body and it wasn't something he could just force blast away. I think it's fair to say one of the greatest decaf_wizards in the entirety of Star Wars could create a spell tying Luke's spirit to his own, which wouldn't require an active exertion of power on his part, but to merely exist.

This part is a little headcanon-y, but we don't have an official explanation to my recollection, so we have to look at the alternatives with all factors put into place (limitation quotes, no defenses, experience, etc). We already know Luke has no defense against his powers when alive, so why would he have a greater defense against powers put in place before he woke up in the spirit realm? To rend a spirit asunder through means not purely through raw power, and to keep that spirit rent should work hand in hand. Basically Kun's knowledge of this sort of area far exceeded Luke's and he knew how to counter it through tricks and traps.

Kun could not defeat Luke's spirit. Kun could not kill Luke. Kun's plan boiled down to just trapping Luke forever (iirc) and he wanted his physical body killed to stop Luke from ever figuring out a way to return. That's not a showing of a superior being. That's a showing of a being who needs to take advantage of a lack of experience to succeed.

The only time Luke and Kun's wills/power were pitted against each other on an even plane, it had Luke passing through Kun and making him recoil/run away.


The Divine Source wrote:And let's be real, even if Kun's ceiling is slightly below TPM Sidious, that's still pretty far above Wyyrlok.  Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 2266747095
And hence the whole issue with using JA, and largely flows back to all the points I made here. Power aside, the points you've made in regards to JA have been esoteric in nature and something Luke has no defense against because he's never encountered ancient Sith magics before.

Wyyrlok has. Wyyrlok might be one of the most studied Sith in history, and it would be crazy to think he's not learned of these sorts of attacks. And yes, I get that Kun's specific knowledge was lost, but Luke/Kyp's knowledge wasn't, and very probably that knowledge fell in W3's lap. Assumption for sure, but I believe it a safe one. The most famous Jedi in the galaxy's encounter with one of the most famous Sith Lord of all times? That's too tantalizing a tale to not examine.

Not saying W3 wins as he's... something I guess, but I do think him more capable of countering Sith magic than 11ABY Luke. So for Kun to win, his best bet would be to raw power W3 out, which I'd wager he could do myself, but that's besides the point.




1.There's a direct statement from 2008 placing Kun over the Star Forge. Furthermore, the quote itself is widely considered part of a gameplay narrative on Wizards of the Coast's part. Even worse, the Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide is stated to be the definitive source on the characters from those eras as far as the Wizards of the Coast media is concerned. Nothing in that book places anyone over Exar Kun.

2.Horn was knocked out. He's waking up from the attack when he informs Luke. Nor is this the only time the relationship is described this way. In Dark Apprentice when Kyp is amped by a Temple focal point, his own senses are described as 'feeble' next to Kun 'reinforcing' his abilities. He goes from barely sensing Yavin's star to becoming one with everything in the solar system:

Jedi Academy Volume 2: Dark Apprentice wrote:“Exar Kun, help me,” Kyp said, closing his eyes.
He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.

Nor does anything you say here actually remain consistent with the book:

Jedi Academy Volume 2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

Not only is Luke aware, in some form, that Kun is present by the time he attacks Horn, he affirms that he's more of a threat than Kyp Durron could be even with his 'Vader+' estimation of Durron's own capacities as a threat. What's worse is that this quote confirms Luke was actively trying to sense Kun's presence yet Kun can mask from Luke's senses an entire Force exchange, which he's simultaneously taking part in, barely fifteen meters from Luke.

There is a repeated claim that has come up over the years(and has been brutally beaten to death each time) that it was really Kyp doing all of the hard work. Well of course Kyp is providing power, Kun's entire problem is that he has no Force reserves available as a spirit. His power is there, but it's not enough. He doesn't have the energy he needs to act properly so he parasites off of the emotions and energy provided to him in place of his own lack of sources.

But Kun's power is still very much alive, it's not nearly what it was in life as is confirmed by numerous authorities and sources. Yet it clearly unleashed the 'full might' of Kyp Durron, and worse it is stated that he was the source of this:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

What's even more telling is this quote:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends. How he was able to do such things is a Sith mystery which has not been revealed for many centuries.

Kun used Kyp to channel his powers through, so we know as a fact that he was channelling powers through Kyp to down Luke whilst simultaneously attacking Luke himself.

It's made emphatically clear that he is the one increasing Kyp's power here:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power.

In fact, when Exar Kun is defeated for good, Kyp suddenly loses his dark side corruption; because Kun had mentally forced him to the dark side:

Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force wrote:And then the haunting voice of Exar Kun rose to a wail in his mind, an utterly forlorn scream as if he were being torn out of this universe and exiled to another place entirely, where he could torment Kyp Durron no more. Kyp snapped backward in his control seat as if an invisible tow cable had been severed. His arms and head dangled like a puppet with suddenly snipped strings. The cool wind of freedom whistled through his mind and body. He blinked his eyes and shuddered with revulsion at what he had been about to do.

3.Regarding Luke's spirit, no it is clearly not a spell on his body. It's a direct binding of Luke's spirit:

Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other students in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

The entire basis for Kun not being strong enough to challenge Luke comes from this wildly taken out of context quote:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.

Literally all this means is that a Kun without any sources of power besides residual energies cannot yet take down Luke Skywalker. That's literally it. Nothing more. Kun at his highest strength as a spirit is still a farcry from Kun in his physical prime.

Kun is a beast, it's that simple. He wrecks Wyyrlok with a wave of his hand.
Isv
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 8:52 pm
Kun cannot beat ROTJ Luke LMFAO
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on April 23rd 2019, 8:57 pm
Literally everything suggests he could one-shot him.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III - Page 2 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on November 8th 2019, 9:47 am
Leaning Kun
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