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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 19th 2019, 11:11 pm
i always thought was underrated, since he has like, one or too good showings of power, and his skill has been surpassed by almost all current characters, but he is still a good deal stronger than zannah in DOE who was capable of easily handling some of the jedi that were part of that strike team, idk how many years before DOE back in ROT.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 19th 2019, 11:16 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:kulvax is technically right here. BUT tenebrous' slight parity with plagueis, who is somewhat implied to be have been the strongest sith after vitiate does put him in the lvls strong enough to match said vitiate, making him reliably stronger than kun imo

Him being implied to be the strongest Sith and him being it, are two very different things.

The only genuinely impressive things Plagueis has are either a feat that is a massive outlier which he can never use and makes for a faulty comparison or an ambiguous appeal to a no limits fallacy technique which Sheev himself pretty much defecates on every time he has the opportunity.

Meanwhile Kun is effortlessly dunking on a Jedi who can speedblitz a Jedi who can WTFPWN a planetary dark sider who wields disintegrating Force attacks on par with the likes of Nyriss. All whilst Kun maintains domination over tens of thousands of people. Then proceeds to dominate his former master to a degree Vodo stands no chance despite Vodo having enough power to telekinetically overpower Ulic and place a block on his Force power. The same Ulic who prior to several years of 'tremendous growth' was wrecking house with Qrrrl, Cay, Nomi and Tott. Tott who not much later in life, can rebuke a massive desert storm with category 5 winds which can instantly disintegrate people on contact with its heat and decimate an entire town with ease.

Yeah, Kun is better. His feats are ridiculously impressive.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 19th 2019, 11:26 pm
Plagueis is stated directly to be the strongest Sith up until that point. Kek.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 19th 2019, 11:31 pm
In a blurb, a subjective blurb debunked by Chee himself.

Is this the best the Plagueis/Tenebrous supporters have?
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 19th 2019, 11:36 pm
Not very subjective, considering the context was power.

There is also the multitudes of Banite scaling that scales demonstrably higher then Kun, who is bound to be sub Malak.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 12:24 am
implications from a canon source matter a lot my man. him being implied to have been stronger than exar kun semi debunks any argument in Kun's favor. the same applies to vitiate here. u cant counter the obviousness of these quotes. a quote being wrong, or being contradictory is one thing, but so many quotes, reiterating the same accolade over and over will now be dismissed cuz characters said it? the characters say what the directer/author wants them to say. thats where author's intent comes from in the first place. kun is EXTREMELY powerful. he may also be underrated a lot too. but man, if his name wasnt sheev or valkorion, i would long ago nominated him the most overrated sith ever.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 12:44 am
His only implication comes from a publisher's blurb which are non-binding. This is a fact.

Banite scaling does nothing against Kun and that dead quote you keep dragging around won't save it either.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 12:58 am
i actually why want to know why a blurb is so dismissable. its a hype statement, of course, but hype statements are technically speaking, still reliable. and why would ur word be above the blurb in the first place? u cant even prove that it was the author, or his editor who decided to put it there in the first place. maybe even lucas allowed it, since this is one of the most important novels in the verse.

what quote i keep draggin around? and banite scaling does nothing, says u, that is. there is this thing called logic. people can infer things, assume things, imagine things by looking at the give information. i can safely say that plagueis being oh so far above bane in and of itself seems to make him a threat to kun.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:00 am
Leland Chee himself debunked the objectivity of publisher blurbs. They aren't binding canon.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:25 am
Tenebrous scales massively above any Sith prior due to Banite scaling. When the Banite sith returned (addressing Maul directly) their return describes the return of the Sith as "more powerful than ever" concerning all previous Sith barring SWTOR characters.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:30 am
Stop pushing a DK quote from a children's book that only covers the movies. Nobody buys it.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:32 am
Why do you not believe in Banite scaling? It is widely accepted and there are numerous sources backing up Banite scaling. Dare I pull them?
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:34 am
I know full well about Banite scaling, I also know that numerous canonical events surrounding the Banites debunks the idea that there was a perfect generational growth until Sheev. It didn't happen that way, as you know if you read the Darth Plagueis novel properly.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 1:43 am
The Phantom Menace Scrapbook wrote:"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."

Force and Destiny wrote:"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

"Their powers increased with each generation" suggests linear growth from generation to generation, with there being 30 generations in total. Tenebrous comes at the end of a ridiculously long chain of linear and iterative power growth, and this is not some new age convuluted straw chain, it's a central theme and narrative of Bane's Rule of Two and Banite scaling as a whole. Suggesting otherwise is ignoring direct evidence and the holistic intent of Bane's Rule of Two.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:01 am
Force and Destiny is a Canon source that treats Legends as literally nothing more than stories.

That Zannah ever surpassed Bane is only speculated on, never actually stated. Cognus deemed the both of them to be far beyond herself as she became apprenticed to Zannah. Yet Cognus is implied to rely on her Force suppression powers way too much. And we also know that her own apprentice Darth Millennial ended up abandoning her and she had to gain her own new, lesser apprentice as a replacement.

All of the Sith afterwards stagnated, per the Plagueis novel, because they were all far too obsessed with the Essence Transfer technique, only growing again after that technique was lost. Then we get to the Darth Gravid situation where an apprentice clearly inferior to a master, murders said master and centuries worth of destruction is committed upon the stores of knowledge of the Banite line. Leaving Gravid, an apprentice with an incomplete apprenticeship as well as now a cripple left to take her own apprentice built on nothing but what has to logically be unimaginably inferior knowledge to her predecessors. Only after that do we get to Tenebrous faking Plagueis surpassing him so as to infect and possess him. Plagueis is then literally incapable of actually surpassing Tenebrous, it takes shifting the balance of the Force to accomplish this. By that point, we're already at Plagueis and Sheev being artificially superior to Tenebrous. But even more bizarre, in the Plagueis novel all of those Sith treat Bane as if he had power they couldn't imagine which completely contradicts a thirty generation growth in power.

Worse yet, we have the idea that Darth Bane is on par with Darth Vader (and Darth Revan) per Drew Karpyshyn. There's a ton of reasons not to believe in perfect Banite scaling. In fact, it is demonstratably not true.
Meatpants (away)
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:14 am
You've got to be joking.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:18 am
I'm literally stating facts. The generational growth may well have occurred but it definitely wasn't anywhere near as smooth or consecutive as it is portrayed to be. We know this from the actual canonical depictions.
EmperorCaedus
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:20 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Force and Destiny is a Canon source that treats Legends as literally nothing more than stories.
Force and Destiny is a Legends source, and your opinion on how you interpret the series is of no relevance to the quote itself. 

@LadyKulvax wrote:That Zannah ever surpassed Bane is only speculated on, never actually stated.
Except if the apprentice kills the master, the newly annointed master is said to be more powerful then the previous master, attaining all of their knowledge, which directly leads to them being more powerful, per the Rule of Two.

@LadyKulvax wrote:Cognus deemed the both of them to be far beyond herself as she became apprenticed to Zannah.
Of course she did, she was merely the apprentice of the apprentice, and only preceeds to outmatch Zannah when she kills her. 

@LadyKulvax wrote:We also know that her own apprentice Darth Millenial ended up abandoning her and had to gain her own new, lesser apprentice as a replacement.
Not sure what Darth Millenial has to do with this, and it is never stated that Cognus's new apprentice was lesser, and it is directly stated per The Rule of Two that the apprentice gets stronger then the master after each generation, so it doesn't matter.

@LadyKulvax wrote:All of the Sith stagnated, per the Plagueis novel, because they were all far too obsessed with the Essence Transfer technique.
Quote? Also Rule of Two quotes override this, regardless.

I am not going to bother reading the responding to the rest of your response, as you drone on about how there are instances where it seems the Rule of Two is ineffective, when there are many quotes, including the ones that I provided that state otherwise, while you haven't cited a single source. You are simply ignoring evidence at this point.
Greysentinel365
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:28 am
The Plagueis novel only states that knowledge is lost in the end. But frankly while knowledge may give you access to esoteric techniques, your raw and conventional powers aren't affected.

Gravid still overpowered and killed Gean. They were more powerful. Then trained an apprentice who grew more powerful. I have no idea where this idea of a setback in the Banite line comes from.
Meatpants (away)
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:29 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:The Plagueis novel only states that knowledge is lost in the end. But frankly while knowledge may give you access to esoteric techniques, your raw and conventional powers aren't affected.

Gravid still overpowered and killed Gean. They were more powerful. Then trained an apprentice who grew more powerful. I have no idea where this idea of a setback in the Banite line comes from.

Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 1289255181

Ultimately the Sith grew in power with each generation.

Emphasis mine Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 4233314142
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:40 am
Force and Destiny is a Canon RPG. What are you talking about? It only includes Legends as if they are literal legends within the mythology in-universe.

You can't just handwave the discrepancies away and pretend they aren't there, that's my entire point.

Zannah clearly is demonstratably incapable of defeating Bane on her own power. She has to use the latent dark side energy of Ambria to overwhelm him. How is that Zannah surpassing Bane?

This is my entire point and you are ignoring it. When you actually read the novels about the Banite Sith, none of this generational growth is actually true beyond a very broad sense.

I haven't cited a single source, besides the fact I clearly stated it all comes from the Plagueis novel?
Meatpants (away)
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:43 am
You could argue semantics about how the novels portray the Banites, but the OOU sources are binding - ultimately each generation became stronger.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:44 am
Note I am not saying that the growth didn't happen, just that it wasn't nearly as well-oiled as many make it out to be on the backs of quotes like that.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:44 am
Zannah is stated to be more powerful IIRC. You're also forgetting that Zannah had years of training Cognus to improve after the point where she defeated Bane.
LadyKulvax
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Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous - Page 3 Empty Re: Exar Kun vs Darth Tenebrous

on December 20th 2019, 2:46 am
Meatpants wrote:You could argue semantics about how the novels portray the Banites, but the OOU sources are binding - ultimately each generation became stronger.

Original source material always take precedent over everything else, including sourcebooks, etc. That is my point, what is actually depicted is not nearly as simple as it's claimed to be.
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