Galen/ Starkiller vs Darth Vader

This is a pretty old and salty topic, so I felt like making a thread to help me, at least, understand the situations, in both fights. If anybody is knowledgeable enough on this topic to at least brief me in some important details, i would be quite grateful. I have heard conflicting information about both fights (timeframes, mindsets, state each person is in before, during, and after the fight, etc), so I thought making this to clear it up once and for all would be quite nice. I actually want opinions on things that arent certain/ given to us in the games and novels too, to help feel in the gaps of information. I do not mean "well, since i personally like galen more, i gotta say it made sense that he won", but more like "the feeling i had from this character is _blank_ and _blank_, which made me think that _blank_ cuz of _blank_", if u catch my drift lol Im sorry if im not being more clear btw. Im not much better in real life, so i suppose its a trait i will keep having for the rest of my life hahaha. 

Something else i would like to know: which is more canon, the games or the novels?

TFU 1: Galen is more or less equal to Vader by the end of the game, but ends up demolishing him after he achieves a state of enlightenment partway through the fight. This is pretty set in stone.

TFU 2: You can make a case either way. Points you can argue in favour of Galen:

>He was exhausted having fought through an army of clones collectively above Vader.
>Vader had trained and tailored his style to deal with Galen in the event of a rematch.
>They're more or less on even footing in spite of the above.

Points in favour of Vader:

>You can point out that the clones were only superior to TFU 1 Vader and argue growth from that point onwards.
>You can argue SK recovered his reserves given he begins to do so before fighting Vader.
>You can argue they were equal/Vader was slightly better and Galen only won via exploiting the advantage given to him by force lightning.

Make of this what you will. I personally think an objective assessment favours Starkiller but that's just me. And to answer your question the novels have a higher canon status.

Yeah, the novels take precedence: 

In 2008, the next chapter of the Star Wars saga will be told in LucasArts' brand-new, next generation video game, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy. The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams (based on the story by Haden Blackman) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga.
First Look: The Force Unleashed Novel, starwars.com (2007) 

Spoiler:

TFU 1: Two are relatively equal until Vader gets injured and baited. At that point, Vader gets ragdolled.

TFU 2: An exhausted (yet recovering) SK was unable to pierce Vader's defences or even use the Force effectively against him beyond a quick blast of lightning. The two are essentially perfect equals at this point.

If Galen is more powerful than Vader in either game, it's by a vague and indeterminable amount. Not enough to scale him reliably, and definitely not enough to argue he's capable of hitting with heavyweights.

I mean, feat wise he can (as can Vader), but yeah I doubt Galen at least is > Vader.

Well no, Vader and Galen don't have feats matching Dooku or Windu.

So is anh Vader above starkiller, as he supposedly much better than before? I don't dismiss at all the idea that sk was tired, and obviously not at his best, but I still think it should be taken into account the fact that Vader was still holding back, and still winning. What do u guys think of this?

Meatpants wrote:Well no, Vader and Galen don't have feats matching Dooku or Windu.

Disagree.

Based on what?

Their Force feats are significantly above Dooku or Windu's and I am willing to make a case for it.

Well no, Vader and Galen don't have feats matching Dooku or Windu.

I think that by ROTJ Vader is Dooku tier, but I actually agree that SK < Dooku. Neither of them are prime Mace level.

So is anh Vader above starkiller, as he supposedly much better than before?

Hard to say. ESB definitely is, as is ROTJ.

I don't dismiss at all the idea that sk was tired, and obviously not at his best, but I still think it should be taken into account the fact that Vader was still holding back, and still winning. What do u guys think of this?

SK was recovering his strength the moment the fight ended.


He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned.


He then realised the battle had ended after a few seconds of focusing solely on restoring some of his strength.


Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over. They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left—of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding.

Vader then appears.

“Why me?” he asked the silent cloning tower. “Search your feelings,” Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. “The answer lies within you.”

SK then has a fairly lengthy inner monologue.


Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did? He remembered: “How long this time?” “Thirteen days. Impressive.” And he remembered: “The Force gives me all I need.” “The Force?” “The dark side, I mean.” Slowly a dark understanding began to form. 


All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent—bar one. His Master.


In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat. He didn’t remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader’s absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won.


 Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one’s own Master?

Starkiller then gets pissed off and begins jumping from platform to platform.

“Your training made me strong enough to escape you,” he said, “not obey you.” “Yet here you are.” Darth Vader’s words fell on him like heavy weights. “My most deadly creation.” “You lie!” Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. 

Note that the average Kamino cloning chamber looks like this.



And Vader was at the very top, meaning that it would take at least a few minutes to jump to the very top if doing it platform by platform.

"You never wanted this. You can’t have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there’s any justice.” “There is no justice,” said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. “Only power.”

The novel even makes note of a time gap.


Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower.

Vader talked to him as he was doing his Super Mario bit, then waited for him to reach the very top. 

So SK had about a minute two - possibly more - to recover most of his strength, especially considering that Force jump is one of the least strenuous Force abilities and Galen's Force reserves have always recharged fairly quickly.

As for the fight, SK also had a single-minded focus, meaning any lingering exhaustion would be largely mitigated. Not to mention that at this point Vader isn't fighting to beat him, just fighting to test his limits.


He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood—the blood of his fellow clones—and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn’t tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

Vader also is fighting a lot more defensively than last time.

Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest.


Finally, Starwanker's momentary exhaustion is never even hinted at again after this. The narrative treats it as being a passing phase that he began recovering from the moment the fight with the clones ended and which continued as he climbed to the top of the cloning tower. He was also highly motivated as opposed to Vader's mere testing of him. 

So while Starwanker was exhausted, it was a momentary thing. Any lingering exhaustion was mitigated when he went into a single-minded focus, indicating that the two were a match for each other, with Vader possessing the slight advantage in sabers.

What does Vader do from TFU to ROTJ that justifies him as Dooku/Windu tier?

I'll write when I get home mate.

ROTJ Luke tier 9 imo

What does Vader do from TFU to ROTJ that justifies him as Dooku/Windu tier?

He's immensely above his ANH self (who in turn is ~ Starwanker's clone). Per scaling, he's above Starwanker's strongest iteration, who has some very impressive environmental and telekinetic feats. It's hard to compare him to Dooku because while Dooku has feats they're more subtle (e.g. challenging Yoda) and less destructive. His most blatant display was the Korriban ship one.

ROTJ Luke tier 9 imo

Um, how? ROTJ Vader is a mid tier 8 at best in sabers, and Luke, while better, has zero other feats to establish him as a 9. He also had speed, agility, rage, and balance over Vader during their fight and has been open about his belief that Vader > him in the Force.

Did you even read my post? 

1. SK’s TK and environmental feats are disproportionate to his power
2. Luke is equal to Vader in the Force, it’s as simple as that.

Did you even read my post? 

What is this "read"?

1. SK’s TK and environmental feats are disproportionate to his power

How do you figure?

2. Luke is equal to Vader in the Force, it’s as simple as that.

Which would also make him a tier 8.

Vader rotj > Vader ESB> Vader anh> Ood bnar> sedriss= dooku

MP wants feats, not scaling or accolades lorenzo.

But he used accolades to put ROTJ Luke = ROTJ Vader. 

oh feats. well, literally anything galen can do or has done, vader can do, or has done better. vader has blown up entire structures more than once. he did shake a skyscraper literally right after getting out his surgery with a scream. him bringing that huge tree down on any'a kuro is more impressive than anything dooku has done. he also scales to joruus' feat of making that hole in that mountain, iirc. being called a legitimated threat by sheev like, 20 times over, is already better than anything dooku has just by itself. muur was more impressed by 19 BBY vader than he was by ESB luke and the one sith. and at the end, u have that scaling chain i wrote up above.

@breakofdawn well he can, super duper pissed off luke+ dark side nexus, often going for the kill= light sider, mentally unstable, not going for the kill vader. its pretty legit alright.

Some extra context from my readings of TFU and TFU II (I don't currently have my books on me, but I read through them just the other day).

TFU I: Initially, Vader held a notable edge in combat. His opening blows very nearly disarmed Galen, who had clearly underestimated how powerful Vader truly was. Once Galen takes Vader's measure properly, the two fight on rather equal footing, with little to imply an edge for either combatant. 

It wasn't until Galen began probing with psychological attacks that things began to shift. His first attempt backfired, and Vader began to take a serious edge, requiring Galen to break off the engagement to catch his breath. 

Galen's second attempt was successful, however. There's almost nothing to imply Galen's revolution actually made Galen better. Instead, my interpretation is that Galen claiming to pity Vader broke the dark lord's concentration and will to fight. After Galen's speech, Vader let out a laugh that was "an awful sound" full of "a decade and a half of abuse and torture." Galen's stomp of Vader at the end of the fight was entirely due to Vader's broken mentality, not Galen gaining some vague amp.

TFU II: Whether or not Starkiller was exhausted or had fully recovered from the clone fight is irrelevant. Vader wasn't taking the first part of the fight seriously. Starkiller himself recognized that Vader was playing "an obvious game." Vader casually, disinterestedly parried Starkiller's attacks, and slent the whole early part of the fight testing Starkiller. The circumstances here are most comparable to Vader testing Luke in the start of their ESB duel. Sure, Luke/Starkiller was able to catch Vader off guard and gain a brief advantage, but this never would have happened had Vader been taking the fight deadly seriously.

Toward the end of the duel, Vader had Starkiller in an unwinnable situation. Starkiller admits to himself that any move he makes puts him at a disadvantage, that one more step back would end the fight, and that the best he could hope for is maintaining a stalemate. Vader had Starkiller dead to rights. The only reason Starkiller "won" was because Starkiller let himself appear to be defeated (not really a stretch, considering his situation), and Starkiller realized Vader had no intention of actually killing him. 

So, to summarize, TFU Galen was comparable to Vader, with Vader possibly having a slight edge. It was only by breaking Vader mentally that Starkiller gained a definitive edge. TFU II Galen was utterly incapable of defeating a serious Vader in a fair fight, and only won due to circumstances

Cringeworthy, here's a more accurate summary.

TFU: Vader largely holds his own at the start of the fight through Galen being conflicted and underestimating him. As soon as both of these factors were removed, Galen dominated him in Lightsaber combat and then ragdolled him.

TFU 2: Vader had the deck rigged in his favour from the get-go. Starkiller was exhausted from blowing up The Salvation, and fighting through a force that could have "easily" overpowered Vader. On top of this, he was suffering from visions of Juno's death and having to resist the Dark Side. Finally, Vader specifically tailored his fighting style to defend against Starkiller's attacks; creating a near unbeatable defence. Do you know what happened despite all of this? Vader lost.

Vader fans need to get over the fact that their trophy was stolen from them, and that Galen is, and always will be Vader's superior.