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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Two
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SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn)

on Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:56 pm
Just finished a new chapter for a story I've been writing and done my intros for my summatives so will probably start working on my opener this weekend. Won't be done until at least Wednesday, though.
Shioz
Shioz

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on Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:20 pm
Ok, look forward to it.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:13 am
Nice post
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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on Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:47 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
For my opener, I’m going to have 2 sections. The first will cover Dooku’s power, and how his raw strength is enough to hold his own against Vader’s. The second will briefly cover Dooku’s superiority in skill).


Part 1: Dooku as a Force user


There’s a common belief in canon that Vader is on a completely different level than Dooku. In this section, I intend to prove that this is not the case by examining what I consider to be their individual best (and comparable) feats.


For this opener, I’ll stick to talking about the easiest area of power comparison: telekinesis. Before I begin, I think it’s worth saying that at this point I believe that Vader’s superiority in TK goes without question. However, Dooku is pretty underrated as far as power goes, being powerful enough that I believe that he can avoid being completely dominated by Vader. 


In all of Vader’s feats, perhaps his most impressive TK feat is his shaking of his fortress on Mustafar in the game Vader Immortal, where in his rage at having a potential gateway to reviving Padme being closed, he shakes the entire fortress. However, even this feat Dooku has replicated. In the one-shot arc Tales from Vader’s Castle, Dooku starts to shake apart an entire fortress simply as a result of his fight with Lord Ravna:


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 Now, why is this impressive? This is the size of the citadel:


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Note that Dooku shook this fortress to the point that all Adi Galila and Obi-Wan had to do was give the supports a slight nudge:


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It’s also worth noting that the Count did this while weakened. Just prior to this, Ravna had infected Dooku and tried to turn him into one of his “vampires” (hence the glowing red eyes). As you can see in the second picture I posted, Dooku is only able to (very temporarily) free himself from Ravna’s influence through Kenobi’s goading. However, the infection was still coursing through Dooku, to the point that he couldn’t dispatch Ravna by himself or completely free himself from Ravna’s control. 


On top of this, it’s worth mentioning that Vader only performed his (arguably) superior version of this feat on a potent dark side nexus:


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This “locus” was a dark side cave that existed beneath Mustafar’s surface. It was over this cave that Vader built his castle to harness the power of the dark side for him to use to try and resurrect Padme:


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To sum up, Dooku has performed a comparable feat to one of Vader’s best feats despite being weakened. By contrast, Vader shaking his fortress was performed on a potent dark side nexus by tapping into power funnelled from this dark side nexus directly through the fortress, and even then the feat doesn't clearly outclass a weakened Dooku's own feat. Based on this, I stand by my view that Dooku and Vader are roughly comparable in Force power. Though I concede that Vader is stronger, I don't believe that there's any noticeable edge.


Part 2: Why Dooku is a superior swordsman


This, in my opinion, is where the Count comes into his own. Even years before he left the Jedi Order, he was capable of going toe to toe with Yoda in spars:


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Considering that Jedi younglings are about 8 years old at most and most Jedi knights are 20-25 in both Canon and Legends, even a Dooku about 12 years before his prime could go toe to toe with Yoda and show enough skill and opposition that younglings found the sight “inspirational.”


Beyond this, we also have Dooku going toe to toe with Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, keeping up with both and even landing hits on them:


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This is even more impressive considering that this was a few months before ROTS and after Ahsoka had left the Order (which saw Anakin increase massively in power), yet Dooku not only held his own but repeatedly landed hits on both. This is also key considering Anakin's superior speed and agility to suited Vader.


And of course, there’s his famous duel with Yoda. While it’s true Yoda in Canon was beating him and was more powerful than him, it’s also true that Yoda was strained by the fight and could not dominate Dooku, to the point that Yoda even complimented Dooku’s performance:


“Fought well you have, my old padawan.”


(Yoda, AOTC).


Dooku and Yoda also believed that even after this, a fight with them could go either way, with Dooku expressing little to no fear of Yoda a few months after AOTC:


“It’s a pity I wasn’t there myself, by old master.”


“A pity indeed, my fallen apprentice.” 


(Dooku and Yoda, Ambush!).


There’s also a drugged and sleep deprived Dooku’s performance against a virtually invisible Ventress and the two Nightsisters with her, who were considered among the best fighters in the clan:


“We have assembled a potion for you to use in order to reach dooku's palace undetected. Step into the mist and become like shadows...Now you are invisible to most.”
“Even count dooku?”
“Yes. Perhaps even count dooku.”


“Karis and naa'leth are the greatest warriors of our coven... They will help you destroy count dooku.”


“What if he can sense us?” 
“Take this poison dart. It will dull his senses and distort his vision. Then you can deal with him easily.”


(Mother Talzin and Asajj Ventress, Nightsisters). 


Despite the trio having nearly every advantage possible, Dooku still held his own against the three until the very end of the duel, when he was exhausted:

SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 ChubbyQuestionableIndianpangolin-max-1mb


As for Vader, I’m honestly not that impressed by his feats. His most impressive lightsaber feats so far are dominating Ahsoka Tano and matching Eeth Koth in sabers and dominating them in the Force. 


Now, let’s examine the Ahsoka feat in particular. Throughout her brief fight with Rebels Maul, the two seem to perform as near equals, with neither displaying an edge until Ahsoka cuts the duel short to save Ezra (possibly because she sensed Vader’s approach):


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The two’s parity is also supported by Filoni, who suggested that Maul would perform similarly well against Vader:


Said Filoni, “It’s interesting. This is a little bit inside, but Maul wasn’t meant to survive the Malachor episode. There was a lot of thought given to taking him out there because a lot of the Malachor arc, originally, was more about Vader confronting Maul and it was going to be a story about that. It became clear to me as the emotional story developed and we worked on it more that that was just going to be wrong, that if anything happened to Maul it needed to have its proper time and its proper space. That’s how he kind of got a pass and survived to this season.”


It’s also suggested that Vader and Rebels Maul would be fairly evenly matched: 
 
''It's a close call. And these two Sith well-matched in terms of fighting skills. (...) You get the feeling these two apprentices of Darth Sidious could learn a lot from each other...''
--- Star Wars Comics Magazine 04 (2014)


Now, why is this significant? Well, throughout TCW we get numerous suggestions that Dooku > prime Maul in both skill and power, especially against Obi-Wan. Note that TCW Maul is a more powerful and skilled version of Maul, unhampered by age, injury, or despair. I’ll go into detail about that in the future, but I want to end this here so it doesn’t go too long. I'll also break down their respective skill levels in detail later, but for now I just want to leave this as it is.


That’s my opener done. For my next post, I’ll cover physicals, the suit Vader vs KFV scaling, elaborate on Dooku's superiority in skill, offer counters to your arguments, and address other areas of comparison between the two. 


Last edited by BreakofDawn on Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:29 am; edited 5 times in total
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:19 pm


Last edited by BreakofDawn on Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total
xolthol
xolthol

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on Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:52 pm
@BreakofDawn Great post! This debate promise to be really interresting.
Rohirrim
Rohirrim

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on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:05 pm
@xolthol wrote:@BreakofDawn Great post! This debate promise to be really interresting.
Shioz
Shioz

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on Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:26 am
Nice post. I will try to write my own soon.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Two
Level Two

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on Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:11 am
@Xolthol @Rohirrim Thanks. 

@Shioz Looking forward to reading it.
AlexSerp
AlexSerp

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on Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:23 pm
Good post. Starred.
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn)

on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:00 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 R4hdirN
COUNTERS

An attempt to compare feats

Although I liked your post as a whole, I still can’t understand what was the meaning of the first argument? You simply took the best feats of Vader and Dooku and based on them concluded that the opponents are approximately equal to each other in the Force (with a slight superiority in favor of Vader). But on the basis of what was this comparison made? Do you absolutely know that this is the maximum that these characters are capable of? Is there any reason to think so? Maybe you definitely know the minimum energy needed to destroy the fortress? This paragraph does not prove comparability or anyone's superiority.  In truth, this proves nothing at all. Feats as an argument are useless if there is no correlation between them. But in the end, you admitted that Vader is more powerful than Tyranus, and I can only prove that the difference is actually greater than you think.

Ahsoka Tano vs Darth Vader vs Darth Maul

Your discussion on this topic is similar to ABC logic. I see no reason to use this in ranking experienced lightsaber duelists. Why should CW Maul be comparable to Vader in fencing? How did you determine the gap between Rebels Maul and CW Maul? How did you compare it to the gap between Vader and Ahsoka? The first thing that breaks your scaling is the effect of stylistic features on a duel. Between three fighters comparable in skill, duels can take place in very different ways and end in different ways. In our case, the gap between Ahsoka and Vader must be very large, because it was her style, which allowed her to fight much superior opponents, for this reason, she held up so well against Vader (link ). This is undoubtedly a great indicator for Tano, but based on this, it is impossible to make comparisons.
Rebels Season 2 Blu-ray: Inside The Vader vs Ahsoka Duel wrote:It's ironic. Anakin taught her to fight much larger opponents than her. Someone exactly like Darth Vader.
I don’t see anything in the statement that would indicate that Maul would have come up against Vader with the same success. Initially, it was assumed that Maul would fight Vader, but we have no information on how this would unfold, and in the end this did not happen. The source you used to prove the comparability of Darth Maul and Darth Vader implies that zabrak is inferior to his opponent in mastery of a lightsaber. Even taking into account the fact that Vader is not far removed from his opponent in terms of pure combat skills, it is also noted that tactical skill and a more adequate manner of fighting give him an advantage against Maul. That is, Vader’s overall combat potential, even in a regular duel with lightsabers, will be higher, and you have not provided evidence that Dooku has advantages over other Sidious apprentices.
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Another problem with this source is that I did not find evidence of its canonicity. It was released in April (at the same time, the canon was restarted on the 25th). There is no Disney logo on the cover of the 4th issue, while it is on later ones (link /link ). If your source is licensed by Disney, then I would ask to dispel my suspicions. I will also expect from you a more detailed comparison of the fighting styles and skills of Obi-Wan, Maul and Dooku, if you return to this argument.

NEW ARGUMENTS

Part I: Total Force power

In the twentieth issue of Darth Vader comic (2015), Palpatine reflects on his triumph and victory over the Jedi and the Republic (link ). It also refers to his apprentices: Darth Maul was a loss, and Dooku was a temporary tool, because by that time Darth Sidious had a superior candidate for apprentice [Anakin Skywalker]. The following discusses Vader's defeat in the battle against Kenobi on Mustafar and its consequences. Using technology, the Emperor remade Darth Vader and received the apprentice he needed (I would have the apprentice I required). “Required” in context = superior to Dooku. If Vader was a failure and succumbed to Darth Tyranus, Sidious would not have praised him here. Another OOU source (Star Wars: I Am a Sith.) plainly tells us that Vader > Dooku.
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There is also some other evidence that Darth Vader is superior to Anakin Skywalker (and KFV) after RotS, who is far more powerful than Dooku. 14 BBY Vader feels more powerful than ever. The claim that Vader at Rebels in his prime is not necessarily true for later versions of Vader, because the indication goes the way that Anakin has gone up to this point, but that puts Rebels Vader above the RotS Vader.
Lords of the Sith wrote:When man and machine were one, he no longer felt the absence of his legs or arms, the pain of his flesh, but the hate remained, and the rage still burned. Those, he never relinquished, and he never felt more connected to the Force than when his fury burned.
Rebels Recon #2.01: Inside \"The Siege of Lothal" wrote:This is Vader and his prime. You've got to remember how far we've come from the character when he was Anakin.

Part II: Using Force abilities

Darth Vader actively uses telekinesis in battle.  So, for example, he ragdolls amped Eeth Koth, a former member of the high council. Even if Vader’s power is not enough to overcome Dooku’s defense, he will use TK one way or another at times when it’s most convenient (as he did with Ahsoka). However, I believe Vader does not even have to attack Tyranus with the Force to win.
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Regarding Vader's defensive capabilities, one of his most impressive exploits is that he survived the explosion of the largest arms factory in the Galaxy (link ). In any case, since Vader is more powerful than Dooku, his barriers must also be stronger. He also survived the huge explosion of the Sith Temple (link ). Even if we just compare feats, I don’t remember that Tyranus had something comparable.
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Darth Tyranus is inclined to use the Force lightning in duels, but I do not think this will be a problem, because Vader has already shown the ability to block lightning as a Jedi (link ).

Part III: Physical indicators

Cybernetic improvements make Vader more physically powerful.  Combined with the fact that his power in the Force has increased and surpasses jedi Anakin, his physical strength must be indecently great for Dooku, given that he was weaker than Skywalker. Dooku will also not have a noticeable advantage in speed (if at all), because Vader did not lag behind Rebels Ahsoka, and later he easily fenced against Karbin (see below).
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Vader is incredibly durability. For example, he is able to withstand a direct strike of a lightsaber and remain fully combat-ready. That is, he has the right to make a mistake, unlike Dooku, who will instantly die from such a blow. Darth Vader, without any protection, withstood the lightning strike and remained able to fight (link /link ). Dooku cannot boast of such stamina.
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Part IV: Lightsaber mastery

I doubt that the battle between Koth and Vader can be considered an indicator of parity. Vader dominated the whole fight and all that Eeth could do was deliver one physical blow, while he was furious and laid out at 110% to protect the family (link ). And it still didn’t harm Vader in any way. By the end of the duel, Koth was all wounded, and the sith remained completely unharmed. The point is not only that Vader could freely use the Force on the jedi. From the very beginning, he pushed him in a lightsaber fight. And besides, Eeth was more powerful than ever was thanks to emotions and proximity to the dark side, which is noted in the context. However, this still did not make him a worthy adversary for Vader. At the same time, Eeth Koth (without amp) was a powerful Jedi Master at the high council level. He fought against General Grievous no worse than against pre-prime Vader, given that:
A) He was placed in an extremely difficult position and was surrounded by magnaguards, which was not in the battle with Vader.
B) He was wounded before the start of the fight in the hand in which he held a lightsaber.
C) He was not amped, as in the battle with Vader, and his determination was not as strong.
I find such a convincing victory over a duelist of such a level an excellent feat for early Vader.
Vader battled Karbin absolutely carefree, defending himself perfectly against his attacks (link ). First, the dark lord allowed himself to be distracted from the duel and talk with Aphra. Secondly, in a conversation with Palpatine, he directly stated that this battle was not worth his attention, and Karbin was not a worthy opponent. And by the way, Karbin is a more advanced version of Grievous (link ). Thus, Vader showed excellent combat speed, physical strength and defense, resisting attacks of this intensity from a fighter of the Grievous+ level. And what's more, Karbin (like Grievous) is trash compared to post-ANH Vader. Grievous could resist the SoD Maul in sabers (link ) and many times caused serious problems for CW Kenobi. Why am I sure that Karbin is really superior to Grievous, as Cylo said? Well, to begin with, it should be understood that Cylo was a fan of Grievous and himself strove to make a better version. Also, to indicate this in the comic would not make any sense if the words were a lie.
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Vader, based on the new novel, was a much better fighter than Ben Kenobi, and he did not have a chance to win. Although Obi-Wan has become physically weaker, and his skills have probably deteriorated somewhat since the duel on Mustafar, there is no reason to believe that he became much weaker than he was, for example, at the beginning of RotS.
A Certain Point Of View: Time Of Death wrote:"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

He lunges at me; slash and counterslash, stab and riposte. The air is thick with plasma discharge, lights dancing on the edge of my vision.

I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing.

As everyone knows, there is a AEYNtK list of the best users of the red lightsaber. It does not explain whether this is the top of the most workshops or the most popular fighters, but I am inclined to adhere to the first interpretation, because the top describes the fighting skills of the characters. Vader as a duelist, according to this information, is much higher than Dooku, even if the difference between the places is minimal. In any case, even if you do not take it seriously, I will not focus on the list. What we already have is more than enough.
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And most importantly, Vader is fully aware of Dooku's fighting style.  You can say that Vader became less dexterous after losing on Mustafar, and you will be right.  However, this in no way takes away his previous combat experience. He had already defeated Tyranus, and not one of his tricks would come as a surprise. With all this, I doubt Dooku will have any chance.

Conclusions
• Darth Vader is positioned as a noticeably more powerful user of the Force than Dooku. He is literally called the most powerful Darth Sidious apprentice.
• Vader, long before his prime, defeats amped former high council in sabers and ragdolls him with the Force. This in itself is a feat from Dooku league at least. Given further growth, the difference between them becomes much more noticeable.
• For Vader, the abilities that Dooku uses will not be a problem.
• Vader easily held back Karbin, a more advanced version of Grievous. The Sith then called the cyborg an worthless adversary.
• Darth Vader is much stronger physically and has a huge advantage in durability, which would allow him to withstand lightsaber strikes in a duel.
• Darth Vader knows absolutely everything about Dooku's style and knows how to confront him properly.
All these factors, in my opinion, would allow Vader to win a victory in this fight.


Last edited by Shioz on Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (Shioz) vs Darth Tyranus (BreakofDawn)

on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:02 pm
AlexSerp
AlexSerp

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on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:12 pm
Love the post. Starred.
Rohirrim
Rohirrim

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on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:22 pm
Nice job, @Shioz.
Shioz
Shioz

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on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:26 pm
Thanks.
Rohirrim
Rohirrim

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on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:33 pm
I've been away from the forum for a while and just noticed the stars system. Starred.
xolthol
xolthol

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on Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:05 am
@Shioz Great post.
Shioz
Shioz

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on Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:20 am
@xolthol wrote:@Shioz Great post.
Thanks again.
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