SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

EC wrote:I don’t see how an in-universe fact file refutes my excerpt directly from the novelization, as my excerpt is canonically superior

Insider 101 wrote:At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn’t have stood a chance against the power emanating from his master

Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars the Annotated Screenplay wrote:My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power

EC wrote:Second, focusing does not equal amping himself up. What exactly is he charging? What barriers are being mentioned? Vader is merely just focusing. In the following quote,

Return of the Jedi Adult Novelization wrote:Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed

EC wrote:Like I already explained, Vader was not amped. If anything, his actions were hindered because he was tired from getting battered by Luke not even a couple minutes earlier. Also, his hand was chopped off. Vader’s only boost was his focus on killing the Emperor, and it isn’t even remotely comparable to an actual amp, i.e the Star Forge.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

EC wrote:Yes, Vitiate was charging his force lightning up. But you claim that it took “a couple minutes” to charge. The passage describes “The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and signed where the lighting had struck him.” Rising to your feet does not take a couple minutes, it takes mere seconds at most, which is not nearly the amount of time given to Nyriss. It was a comparison of the ability, not time amount.

EC wrote:Revan was distracted at Meetra’s death, but it doesn’t explain how little Vitiate had to do to incapacitate Revan so easily. It wasn’t a charged blast, because Vitiate did not know Scourge was going to betray Meetra, and thus didn’t have anything to charge for.

EC wrote:Except Vader didn’t charge anything, I already refuted the claim it above. There is also no evidence supporting that Vader had a love amp, yes he wanted to save Luke from Palpatine, but it was his increased focus that allowed him to do that.

EC wrote:Revan never manages to hold Vitiate’s lightning in,
[...]
It is explained that when Vitiate hits Revan with the blast, Revan “immediately screams, then collapses to the ground, unconscious.” So he didn’t hold Vitiate’s lightning at all.

EC wrote:You missed the point. The whole purpose of the Vader vs Sidious argument was to draw comparisons to the Revan vs Vitiate, not to scale Luke from it.



Luke ~> Vader > Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.

EC wrote:EC

The first quote states that Luke has grown “much more powerful in the force” since Exar Kun saw him four years earlier.


The second quote states directly states that Luke’s powers since Dark Empire have been “redoubled” insinuating that JA Luke is twice as powerful as Dark Empire Luke, who is twice as powerful as RotJ Luke. 


As he continues his growth rate, he starts as RotJ Luke in 4 ABY, then by 9 ABY he doubled in power, then by 11 ABY he doubles again, it’s safe to say he has grown an absurd amount from 11 ABY (The end of Jedi Academy) to 21 ABY (The start of the Yuuzhan Vong War.




Thus, Vong War Luke >>>> JA Luke >>> DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Vader >> Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.

EC wrote:Alright, this leads nicely into my next topic

B. Comparisons between Luke vs Caedus, and Luke vs Lumiya

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later. 
Then, as she began to raise her arm again, he ran at her, so close in that she couldn't get the whip traveling at its maximum lethal speed. He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.
One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.
Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.
Luke reached out and caught her hand as she fell, whip tumbling and bouncing down the steep rock face into oblivion. He leaned back, all his weight on his heels, knuckles clenched white with the strain of holding her weight, and for a second he wanted to see her face dwindling as she fell to her death, mouth open in a scream, but that wasn't the way to end this.
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.
Here is the entire fight, I will be breaking it up into sections as the fight progresses, and comparing it to Caedus's fight with Luke.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later."


The fight starts off, and we are already given the notion that Skywalker is the clear superior. 


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:


“Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.


Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.


But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.


The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse."



In comparison, Luke’s fight with Caedus starts neutral, even when Luke masked his presence in the force to get the element of surprise.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


"One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge."


Luke was quite literally battering Lumiya, Lumiya is close to the edge of the mesa.


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:


“Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.



Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.



The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.”


In contrast, as Luke pushes the offensive, Jacen is able to fool his uncle into thinking he will employ Force lightning and instead, he proceeds to smash him with a tendril and momentarily pis him against the wall. Like I said in my previous post, Caedus could’ve killed Luke in this moment, and even messes with Luke.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.


Luke then proceeds to batter and ragdoll her at the edge of the Mesa.


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck, which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.”


Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. 


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.


The fight ends with Lumiya about to fall of the Mesa, but Luke picks her back up and promptly decapitates her. 


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to gammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.


Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which ends the fight, not Luke ending it himself.



Yeah, except for the fact that Luke still manages to beat Jacen, despite Jacen having every conceivable advantage in this scenario, and Luke in this grief-torn, angry state is literally matched by fucking Lumiya. Are you seriously telling me Lumiya ~ LOTF Luke?


Now back to this point, have you not read my opener? Luke had the advantage from the start by ambushing Caedus while he wasn’t expecting it, Caedus literally ignites his saber just in time for himself not do get stabbed fatally. And as I explained, Luke and Caedus had a competent matchup, while Luke quite literally ragdolls Lumiya.

• Luke decisively wins. There is no doubt about this. From the very beginning, Luke holds a steady upper hand, and Caedus continuously gives ground.
  
• Luke wins twice. He has an opportunity to kill his nephew twice, but doesn’t.
  
• The only reason Jacen was able to stay in the fight for so long was because of a bunch of environmental traps that Luke didn’t know about.
  

EC wrote:In Inferno (the 6th book) Caedus was caught by surprise, but he learned from his mistakes. Caedus gets surprised by Luke again, but is able to hold his own as I’ve explained. Subsequently confirming that he learned from his duel with Luke in Inferno, therefore he is superior then he is shown in this fight. Invincible is the last book in the series, he has had a lot of time to grow since then. 

Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...


Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, almost blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

EC wrote:A couple things to note about this, yes it is near a prime Caedus, but it still isn’t. Secondly, we have no possible way of gauging the number of people Caedus BMed that day. It claims “hundreds and more” which means that it could possibly mean 100, 300, 500, etc. There is no way of knowing how many people he BMed, so you can’t use this as a way of gauging Caedus’s power.

EC wrote:Defeating droids? How exactly is that feat comparable in anyway to what I’ve mentioned above.


IG wrote:
Revan's defeat of Malak, while a close fight does categotize as a stomp because Malak is constantly revitalizing himselv, and Revan literally beats him 8 times.





Malak did not defeat Malak 8 times. In the duel, Malak used the Force to drain the life force from the one of the Jedi, transferring it to himself. But Revan freed all of the Jedi spirits that we're held captive, thus shortening Malak's supply of energy and allowing them to become one with the force. So instead of facing 8 Malaks, he was releasing the Jedi spirits instead. If faced against 8 Malak’s, all drawing from the full power of the Star Forge, he would have certainly been defeated.  


IG wrote:
Revan then goes on to fight Bastila on one of the most potent nexuses ever, while she is constantly regenerating her power.


Bastilla is quite literally fodder. None of her feats are comparable to Caedus.


Star Wars: The Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:
"Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."


Star Wars Databanks: Bastila Shan wrote:
"The next time Revan encountered Bastila, she was a dark warrior filled with rage."


The battle was described as intense and climatic between the two fighters, which is really low for Revan. 

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:No, this is not possible! You have rejected the dark side, you are a weak and pathetic servant of the light! How can you still stand against me? Why can't I defeat you?

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:I should stay here, though. If we face Malak I am afraid his dark presence will overwhelm me. It would not be wise to expose myself to such temptation.

EC wrote:There is no evidence to support that the Star Forge hampered Revan’s abilities. It enhanced Malak’s, but did not hamper Revan. And you mentioning a ‘tired’ Revan segways into my next argument.

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:



You are growing weary, I can sense it! Your strength falters, the light side is failing you while the power of the Star Forge re-energizes me! Soon this will all be over!

EC wrote:The Star Forge is described as an amp. Malak can’t dominate the Star Forge, all it does is just give him increased power levels then regular base Malak. “So much power, it is blinding.” This quote claims that the Star Forge has the power, and it grants it’s wielder access to said power. Malak didn’t dominate anything.

Ajunta Pall wrote:"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Darth Nihilus' dark will held the vessel and its crew together."

EC wrote:Malak did not defeat Malak 8 times. In the duel, Malak used the Force to drain the life force from the one of the Jedi, transferring it to himself. But Revan freed all of the Jedi spirits that we're held captive, thus shortening Malak's supply of energy and allowing them to become one with the force. So instead of facing 8 Malaks, he was releasing the Jedi spirits instead. If faced against 8 Malak’s, all drawing from the full power of the Star Forge, he would have certainly been defeated.  

EC wrote:

This whole listings of scaling chains have been debunked, scroll up.

EC wrote:The final scaling chain we are left with is:



LotF Luke >?> Yuuzhan Vong Luke >> Darth Caedus (sitting somewhere between DE and LotF) > DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Darth Vader > Revan (Reborn) >> Revan (KotOR).


All of my points still stand, you have yet to debunk a single one of my points, while I have debunked all of yours. Maybe you should just walk away from all of this while you still can, as clearly I have the superior argument, my friend.