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EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 4:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Img_6412
The clash of the two youngest people of the forum finally commences!

Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force: Invincible. Revan as of The Knights of the Old Republic.


Each introduction can take a maximum of one month to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two months to respond. Tentatively, there will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of judges to be announced.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:


  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.

  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 4:24 pm
You opening or should I?
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 4:25 pm
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:You opening or should I?
Since you were a little apprehensive about this matchup, I'll let you decide if you want to open or not
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 5:52 pm
I’ll go second then.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 5:55 pm
Hopefully we see one of these actually completed this time.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 6:03 pm
lol
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 6:04 pm
@Deronn_Solo I’ve already started another I’m going to finish. The one against praxis was me being an idiot starting a onesided matchup.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 6:30 pm
My post wasn't exclusive to you -- I'm talking about in general IG.

It seems everytime we have one of these, someone computer breaks, or internet goes out and it never concludes.
The Apprentice
The Apprentice
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Level Two

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 6:58 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:My post wasn't exclusive to you -- I'm talking about in general IG.

It seems everytime we have one of these, someone computer breaks, or internet goes out and it never concludes.

This is something you contribute to as well. Everyone is still waiting for you taking over IG's SS and responding to Praxis.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 7:09 pm
Not really.

I've never made a definitive commitment to a SS because I know I'll prolly never finish one. I didn't actually said for sure I'll sub in on Kun v Outlander, and I'm still tryna figure out if I can tackle IG's mess of a case
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 7:10 pm
Stop clogging the thread please
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 7:48 pm
My apologies.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 7:59 pm
EC, it’s fine. It’s just banter. When there’s an actual response it’ll be alright to get them to stop, but as of now, let them post.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 9:59 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
This is my first Suspect Showdown ever, I apologize if there are any discrepancies on my part. Without further ado, let’s begin.


Part 1: Why Darth Vader is impressive


At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.


Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart.


Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.



  • The Return of the Jedi Novelization



The passage describes Vader’s durability and willpower as impeccable, and Vader gives a much better performance then Revan (Reborn) does against Emperor Vitiate. Emperor Palpatine is canonically superior to Emperor Vitiate.


The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.


Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.


A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.


Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.


Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.


The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.


Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.


T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.


“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.


He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.


The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.


The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.


* * *


Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.


What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.


Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.


It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.


  • Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan



Vader put up a much better fight then Revan did. “In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride. 


Palpatine has repeatedly been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side master in galactic history, which puts Palpatine above Vitiate canonically. And we are talking about Revan REBORN, who is above Revan KotOR in every conceivable way, which is who we are using for this debate. 



Part 2: Luke Skywalker Scaling chain


Now that we’ve got that out of the way, let’s proceed. 


Part A: RotJ Luke vs Darth Vader


“Luke tried to avoid the fight, and only struck back in self-defense” Source: The Star Wars Original Trilogy scrapbook.


“His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest.” - The Return of the Jedi Novelization


“In the throne room battle against Vader, Luke showed he had attained the spiritual compassion of a true Jedi knight. Luke fought Vader with self defense, and when he defeated Vader, he refused to kill him.” 


In all these quotes, Luke is stated to be equal with Vader, Luke was holding back while Vader wasn't, until Luke became rage amped, then he promptly beat Vader to a pulp.



So we’ve established Luke (RotJ) ~> Vader.


Part B: DE Luke vs DE Sidious


LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!


- Dark Empire I Audiodrama 


DE Luke explicitly wins by overpowering Sidious with the help of Leia’s battle meditation.


So we’ve established DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >> RotJ Luke ~> Vader


Part C: Vong War Luke


He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.
The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.
He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.
Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.
 
- The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I



This is one of many Luke feats during the Yuuzhan Vong War. He was able to manipulate a black hole, to a higher degree then Kyp Durron. This scales him vastly above his Dark Empire counterpart, because DE Luke simply couldn't recreate the feat in Dark Empire.


So we’ve established Vong War Luke >>> DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> RotJ Vader. 


Part D: LotF Luke


If we use the Luke growth chain we've provided, then Luke grows immensely from 4 ABY to 9 ABY, then again in 29 ABY, The Yuuzhan Vong War ended in 29 ABY. The fight between Darth Caedus and Luke takes place in 41 ABY. Luke has grown substantially since his Vong War counter part, and is leaps and bounds above him.


So, we’re left with the following: LotF Luke >>> Vong War Luke >>> DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >> RotJ Luke ~> Darth Vader. 


Part 3: Luke Skywalker vs Darth Caedus


I am aware that Luke has almost every conceivable advantage over Caedus, and pretty much all force users in the galaxy for that matter. Luke has had decades of experience, training, and fighting other force users then Caedus has ever had. However, this does not mean that Caedus isn’t in the same league as Luke, in fact I believe he is in the same league as Luke. 


"I'm afraid so, "he said. "I don't feel any Jedi presence at all, and if I don't, then neither do you-nothing real, anyway."
"That's because he doesn't want you to feel him, "Ben said. He sensed his father very near now, on the same deck and moving fast. "But he's here."
Ben glimpsed a dark figure stepping into the doorway. "I don't think you'll need any help finding him, Jacen. Dad's right behind you."
[…]
[Luke] was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.
Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.
Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.
But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.
The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.


In this passage, Luke takes the offensive initiative with an element of surprise. Luke is crippled with agony because his son is being tortured by his nephew, Darth Caedus. To my mind the fact that Caedus was able to react at all to Luke’s attempted coup de grace, and readjust his defense in the middle of Luke’s thrust speaks volumes to Caedus own skill as a combatant. 


Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, Caedus had to protect his heart and head, suggesting that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, not subdue. Furthermore, If Luke was aiming to incapacitate Caedus in the most painful way he could think of in that moment, I feel comfortable saying that Luke was going into this fight all out, with everything he could throw at Caedus.


Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.


Caedus was able to dodge a possible death blow from his uncle, proving once more that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus. as the fight commenced Luke and Caedus clashed with their blades several more times. 


Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.


As Luke pushed the offensive, Jacen was able to fool his uncle into thinking he would employ Force lightning and instead, smash him with a tendril and momentarily pin him against the wall. In this moment, Caedus could’ve killed Luke, but he believed his force powers were enough to restrain Luke.


Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-
-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.


Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. Which reinforces the notion of Caedus being in the same league as Luke as a combatant. 


Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. 
Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.
The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.


Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which suggests that Ben has ended the fight for Luke, not Luke himself. 


With all this in mind, it would be fair to assume that LotF Luke > Caedus, but by how much? Let’s find out, shall we?


Part 4: Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus


"I wish I could do that, Uncle Luke," Jacen said. "That was really something."
"You will be able to do anything you want, Jacen," Luke said. "You have the potential-as long as you have the discipline." 


Jacen is stated to inherit the same force potential as his uncle Luke. 


Jacen cloaked Lumiya in a Force illusion and projected his own unconcerned calm as Luke approached. It was an exhausting manoeuvre, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.
Luke strode toward them and glanced back over his shoulder a couple of times as if someone were following him. He acknowledged Jacen stiffly and paid Lumiya no more than polite attention, as if his mind was more on what was down the corridor.
Jacen strained to hold the Force illusion steady, like a ball of heat within his chest that he had to balance to keep it from touching his rib cage. That was exactly how it felt. And Lumiya . . . Lumiya, somehow nestled in miniature within that ball of heat, felt not vengeful or trying to disguise her intentions, but genuinely worried about being discovered before her work was complete. 

  • Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

"Mara?" Now Luke's voice was frightened. "What's wrong?"
"Good question," Mara said.
She turned to Jacen, but he only held a finger to his lips and moved his hoverchair closer to Luke. R2-D2 emitted a confused whistle and raised a hydraulic extension with a medical sensor at the end.
"Mara!" Luke turned and hit the emergency summons button next to Mara's bed, but Jacen made a motion with his hands and the button did not depress. Luke did not seem to realize this. He turned back to Mara and placed his fingers to her throat, checking her pulse. "I can't feel a pulse. Artoo, call an EmDee droid. Tell her to hurry!"
R2-D2 spun toward the data jack to obey, but Jacen used the Force to disable the power to the droid's treads.
Mara caught Jacen's gaze. "All right, Jacen. This has gone far enough."
Not yet. The message reverberated without words inside Mara's head. He must learn.
Mara felt another wave of Force energy pass over her, and Luke cried out in horror and looked toward R2-D2. "Artoo, what's taking you so long?"
R2-D2 issued a frustrated whistle and spun an accusing photoreceptor toward Jacen. Luke could take it no longer. He raised a hand and began to fill it with life-giving Force energy.
"Jacen, we can't wait. We have to revive her ourselves." He pointed at the emergency respirator hanging on the wall. "Get the respirator."
Luke leaned over Mara and started to place his hand on her chest-until Jacen raised an arm and pushed him away.
"Jacen!" Luke screamed. "What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing," Jacen said calmly. "And there's nothing wrong with Aunt Mara."
Luke's gaze swung back to Mara, and she could not decide whether he looked more stunned or relieved. "You're . . . you're alive again!"
"I was never dead," Mara said. "I think Jacen is trying to make a point."

  • Dark Nest: The Swarm War



Caedus has repeatedly managed to fool Luke with his illusions, who is the most powerful mortal force user ever, the ladder feat being a pre-prime Jacen Solo. 


The orange tunnel rushed up to meet him faster than he expected and he jerked the yoke back. Nothing snagged him; he didn't feel it, anyway. He couldn't look back. But he felt Luke's moment of horror at a near hit, buying him seconds that he needed to shoot underneath the Star Destroyer and come back along its length toward one of the hangar decks.
"Anakin Solo, emergency landing, damaged StealthX One-One-open Five-Alpha Hangar..."
He could have sworn he snapped off the tip of a commast. He was holding the fighter steady as much by the Force as by its controls, and trying to slow it with the Force as well, because the braking burn wasn't enough. He had to drop into that slot just right or he'd take the section out with him.
I could have activated the transponder, let them track me for the last few seconds, but I can't pinpoint the Jedi...
Too late.
Caedus stopped thinking and felt. He was braking with everything he had. Coming out of the blackness of space, the hangar lights were sudden and blinding, and then he realized they were sparks. He was skidding across the hangar deck. The bulkhead filled his view; the arrester baffle caught him. He was flung against what felt like a permacrete wall. As the lights around dimmed and he couldn't see through the canopy any longer, he had a foolish moment of thinking he was dying.
No, you've done that. Doesn't feel like this.

  • Legacy of the Force: Revelation



Jacen manages to slow his StealthX which was accelerating rapidly while simultaneously holding it steady to avoid a crash, this goes to show his telekinetic strength and skill is unparalleled, save for Luke. 


Jacen jerked his head around, suddenly seized by such a powerful sense of immediate danger that his instinct was to fling himself on Niathal and wrap the taxi tight in a Force shield. The vessel bucked hard as if it had been hit by a tidal wave. There was a second of silence before a deafening whump shook it like a box and they were caught in an instant blizzard of what seemed to be glittering snow. It hammered the hull as Jacen fought to hold the taxi steady, oblivious of the pilot's efforts.
Shattered transparisteel.
It seemed to go on for minutes. The pilot was shouting. Jacen straightened up, staring into the rapidly blinking eye of a shaken Niathal, and knew that they had caught the tail end of a huge explosion.

Jacen could feel what had happened, but it was still a shocking sight. Ahead of them, the skylanes seemed to be a gaping hole of nothing-as if a whole mass of speeders had fallen out of the sky, which they clearly had-and for a hundred meters the buildings on either side were like jagged, open mouths. Each transparisteel frontage had been blown out. The Force was torn with anger and fear and shock. The unnatural silence was broken by emergency klaxons and echoing shouts. Jacen realized the taxi's screens had collapsed into the cabin, although still in one piece.


  • Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines


Jacen manages to shield himself and his vehicle from an explosion that damaged or ripped apart every building in a two hundred meter radius. This goes to show that his force barriers are unparalleled, save for Luke. 

The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach. From the fight on Nickel One, she had learned the dangers of letting her head snap back on impact. She tucked her chin, then fought to hold it there as she struck the durasteel wall on the far side of the corridor.

...

Letting his lightsaber deactivate and drop to the floor, he reached toward her, making a twisting motion with his hand.

Jaina felt her chin twisting around and went with it, using the Force to accelerate her whole body into a spin, still leaping toward Caedus, bringing her lightsaber around in a clearing arc.

...

Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life.

But the durasteel into which she slammed was still scorching, and the pain of impact was nothing compared to the sizzling shock of merely contacting the furnace exterior. She dropped to the floor screaming in rage and anguish, her nostrils filled with the stench of singed hair and charred skin, the black GAG utilities still burning on her back.

...

All she needed was to get past his lightsaber and attack the armless side of his body-before she collapsed herself, or he recovered enough to kill her with one last Force blast.


  • Legacy of the Force: Invincible

Jacen is shown to be the superior of his twin sister, Jaina Solo. He managed to do this while previously sustaining injuries. These injuries include a hole in his shoulder, a shattered kneecap, a crushed ankle, only one arm, a stab wound to his gut, and a broken ribcage. 


Conclusion:


Darth Vader is at the far bottom of our scaling chain, and even he outclasses a more powerful iteration of Revan


LotF Luke >> Yuuzhan Vong War Luke >>> DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >>>> RotJ Luke >~ Darth Vader > Revan Reborn > Revan (KotOR)


With parity to Grand Master Luke Skywalker – one of the most powerful mortal Force-users to ever live – Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus is clearly among one of the most powerful mortal Force-users in galactic history. His incredible pain tolerance and ability to draw on it to fuel himself are unparalleled by any other Force-user, and that’s what truly makes him exceptional as a combatant. 


Now I have laid out the cards, do you still want to play?
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 10:46 pm
Well, that is an... interesting conclusion. I'll respond soon.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 11:14 pm
Oh wow. This should be........ interesting.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 11:20 pm
Good grief.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 11:25 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@LadyKulvax wrote:Good grief.
Did I lowball Revan too hard for you. I’m sowwy  SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) 1471176647

Don’t argue back because it’s between me and IG
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 23rd 2019, 11:33 pm
Wow EC ragdolling AP.
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 24th 2019, 2:57 am
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 24th 2019, 8:48 am
EC wrote:At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.


Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart.


Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.




  • The Return of the Jedi Novelization





The passage describes Vader’s durability and willpower as impeccable, 



Okay, so from the very beginning, your argument is flawed. For one, there are so many circumstances at play here that this cannot be seen as an accurate showing of Vader’s power. I think that this quote sums the situation up pretty well:



The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote:
It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star.




While I realize that Fact Files are in-universe, and therefore, it is best to take them with a grain of salt, it is worth mentioning that they are written by New Republic historians, so the closer to the NR era you get (and RoTJ is literally a year a way), the more reliable they are. 


Furthermore, 


Return of the Jedi Adult Novelization wrote: “Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed”




I mean, this also proves that Vader had been amping himself tremendously. He had minutes to amp himself. He’s quite literally charging himself to max potency possible, erecting the most powerful barrier he can around himself in a last-ditch effort to kill Sidious. 



EC wrote:Vader gives a much better performance then Revan (Reborn) does against Emperor Vitiate




So, you’re comparing a ridiculously amped Vader to Revan recovering from torture, and ludicrously hindered by the Kaas nexus. The same Kaas that was able to hinder the likes of FoTJ Luke to a noticeable degree. 




Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies. But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before






EC wrote:The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.



Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.



A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.



Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.



Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.



The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.



Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.



T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.



“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.



He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.



The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.



The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.



* * *



Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.



What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.



Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.



It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.




  • Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan


 


Vader put up a much better fight then Revan did. “In the space of only a few seconds,” Revan begins “spasming uncontrollably” and “collapse[s] to the ground” under the Emperor’s assault. In contrast, Vader walks through the Galactic Emperor’s barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride. 



Palpatine has repeatedly been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side master in galactic history, which puts Palpatine above Vitiate canonically. And we are talking about Revan REBORN, who is above Revan KotOR in every conceivable way, which is who we are using for this debate. 




Conveniently enough, you’ve already quoted the passage I need for me. “The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head. Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done”.  So, it’s pretty evident from the passage that Vitiate was charging his lightning to an absurd potency. He, ironically enough, charged his force potency, not unsimilar to how Vader did, but Vader had to charge his for a lot longer, and have a circumstantial love amp to even be able to tank Sidious’ split-second reaction lightning. To contrast, Revan manages to hold in Vitiate’s lightning for, yes, seconds, but this lightning was charged to an absurd potency. Furthermore, Revan was on one of the strongest dark-side nexuses to ever exist. He was hindered to an absurd degree, something that definitely affected his performance. Furthermore, I’m not convinced that Revan getting his mask back increased his power, skill, mastery, etc to such a degree that it overrode the diminishing effects of the nexus, ie Revan’s feats on-Kaas as Reborn should be applicable to KOTOR because of Kaas’ stupidly potent nexus. 


Yes, Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate, but there are too many circumstances at play here to use Vader’s lightning thing as a reasonable feat to scale off of. Also EC, I don’t know if you realize this, but Vader died


Now that we’ve got that out of the way, let’s proceed. 




EC wrote:Part A: RotJ Luke vs Darth Vader



“Luke tried to avoid the fight, and only struck back in self-defense” Source: The Star Wars Original Trilogy scrapbook.


“His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest.” - The Return of the Jedi Novelization


“In the throne room battle against Vader, Luke showed he had attained the spiritual compassion of a true Jedi knight. Luke fought Vader with self defense, and when he defeated Vader, he refused to kill him.” 


In all these quotes, Luke is stated to be equal with Vader, Luke was holding back while Vader wasn't, until Luke became rage amped, then he promptly beat Vader to a pulp.



So we’ve established Luke (RotJ) ~> Vader.



Sure, but Luke is outright fried to a crisp by Sidious. Like, it’s not even a contest. There is no competition whatsoever, Luke just gets annihilated, so there’s no reason for you to scale Luke himself from Vader’s (extremely questionable) feat.



EC wrote:Part B: DE Luke vs DE Sidious



LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!



- Dark Empire I Audiodrama 



DE Luke explicitly wins by overpowering Sidious with the help of Leia’s battle meditation.



So we’ve established DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >> RotJ Luke ~> Vader




EC, I like you, I really do, but this is the most cancerous argument I’ve ever argued against, and I’ve argued against MyGod. It’s common knowledge that Leia is described to have “unlocked additional resources” within Luke, ie she unlocked his full potential. He’s practically in Oneness. You can’t scale DE Luke having parity to DE Sidious via his full potential, that makes no sense.



EC wrote:This is one of many Luke feats during the Yuuzhan Vong War. He was able to manipulate a black hole, to a higher degree then Kyp Durron. This scales him vastly above his Dark Empire counterpart, because DE Luke simply couldn't recreate the feat in Dark Empire.




How would Luke be able to move a dovin basal in DE? He never knew they existed.




EC wrote:I am aware that Luke has almost every conceivable advantage over Caedus, and pretty much all force users in the galaxy for that matter. Luke has had decades of experience, training, and fighting other force users then Caedus has ever had. However, this does not mean that Caedus isn’t in the same league as Luke, in fact I believe he is in the same league as Luke. 



"I'm afraid so, "he said. "I don't feel any Jedi presence at all, and if I don't, then neither do you-nothing real, anyway."
"That's because he doesn't want you to feel him, "Ben said. He sensed his father very near now, on the same deck and moving fast. "But he's here."
Ben glimpsed a dark figure stepping into the doorway. "I don't think you'll need any help finding him, Jacen. Dad's right behind you."
[…]
[Luke] was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.
Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.
Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.
But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.
The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.



In this passage, Luke takes the offensive initiative with an element of surprise. Luke is crippled with agony because his son is being tortured by his nephew, Darth Caedus. To my mind the fact that Caedus was able to react at all to Luke’s attempted coup de grace, and readjust his defense in the middle of Luke’s thrust speaks volumes to Caedus own skill as a combatant. 



Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, Caedus had to protect his heart and head, suggesting that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, not subdue. Furthermore, If Luke was aiming to incapacitate Caedus in the most painful way he could think of in that moment, I feel comfortable saying that Luke was going into this fight all out, with everything he could throw at Caedus.



Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.



Caedus was able to dodge a possible death blow from his uncle, proving once more that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus. as the fight commenced Luke and Caedus clashed with their blades several more times. 



Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.


Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.


The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.



As Luke pushed the offensive, Jacen was able to fool his uncle into thinking he would employ Force lightning and instead, smash him with a tendril and momentarily pin him against the wall. In this moment, Caedus could’ve killed Luke, but he believed his force powers were enough to restrain Luke.



Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-
-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.



Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. Which reinforces the notion of Caedus being in the same league as Luke as a combatant. 



Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. 
Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.
The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.



Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which suggests that Ben has ended the fight for Luke, not Luke himself. 



Yeah, except for the fact that Luke still manages to beat Jacen, despite Jacen having every conceivable advantage in this scenario, and Luke in this grief-torn, angry state is literally matched by fucking Lumiya. Are you seriously telling me Lumiya ~ LOTF Luke? 



EC wrote:Part 4: Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus



"I wish I could do that, Uncle Luke," Jacen said. "That was really something."
"You will be able to do anything you want, Jacen," Luke said. "You have the potential-as long as you have the discipline." 



Jacen is stated to inherit the same force potential as his uncle Luke. 



Jacen cloaked Lumiya in a Force illusion and projected his own unconcerned calm as Luke approached. It was an exhausting manoeuvre, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.
Luke strode toward them and glanced back over his shoulder a couple of times as if someone were following him. He acknowledged Jacen stiffly and paid Lumiya no more than polite attention, as if his mind was more on what was down the corridor.
Jacen strained to hold the Force illusion steady, like a ball of heat within his chest that he had to balance to keep it from touching his rib cage. That was exactly how it felt. And Lumiya . . . Lumiya, somehow nestled in miniature within that ball of heat, felt not vengeful or trying to disguise her intentions, but genuinely worried about being discovered before her work was complete. 


  • Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines




"Mara?" Now Luke's voice was frightened. "What's wrong?"
"Good question," Mara said.
She turned to Jacen, but he only held a finger to his lips and moved his hoverchair closer to Luke. R2-D2 Mara!" Luke turned and hit the emergency summons button next to Mara's bed, but Jacen made a motion with his hands and the button did not depress. Luke did not seem to realize this. He turned back to Mara and placed his fingers to her throat, checking her pulse. "I can't feel a pulse. Artoo, call an EmDee droid. Tell her to hurry!"
R2-D2 spun toward the data jack to obey, but Jacen used the Force to disable the power to the droid's treads.
Mara caught Jacen's gaze. "All right, Jacen. This has gone far enough."
Not yet. The message reverberated without words inside Mara's head. He must learn.
Mara felt another wave of Force energy pass over her, and Luke cried out in horror and looked toward R2-D2. "Artoo, what's taking you so long?"
R2-D2 issued a frustrated whistle and spun an accusing photoreceptor toward Jacen. Luke could take it no longer. He raised a hand and began to fill it with life-giving Force energy.
"Jacen, we can't wait. We have to revive her ourselves." He pointed at the emergency respirator hanging on the wall. "Get the respirator."
Luke leaned over Mara and started to place his hand on her chest-until Jacen raised an arm and pushed him away.
"Jacen!" Luke screamed. "What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing," Jacen said calmly. "And there's nothing wrong with Aunt Mara."
Luke's gaze swung back to Mara, and she could not decide whether he looked more stunned or relieved. "You're . . . you're alive again!"
"I was never dead," Mara said. "I think Jacen is trying to make a point."


  • Dark Nest: The Swarm War






Caedus has repeatedly managed to fool Luke with his illusions, who is the most powerful mortal force user ever, the ladder feat being a pre-prime Jacen Solo. 



The orange tunnel rushed up to meet him faster than he expected and he jerked the yoke back. Nothing snagged him; he didn't feel it, anyway. He couldn't look back. But he felt Luke's moment of horror at a near hit, buying him seconds that he needed to shoot underneath the Star Destroyer and come back along its length toward one of the hangar decks.
"Anakin Solo, emergency landing, damaged StealthX One-One-open Five-Alpha Hangar..."
He could have sworn he snapped off the tip of a commast. He was holding the fighter steady as much by the Force as by its controls, and trying to slow it with the Force as well, because the braking burn wasn't enough. He had to drop into that slot just right or he'd take the section out with him.
I could have activated the transponder, let them track me for the last few seconds, but I can't pinpoint the Jedi...
Too late.
Caedus stopped thinking and felt. He was braking with everything he had. Coming out of the blackness of space, the hangar lights were sudden and blinding, and then he realized they were sparks. He was skidding across the hangar deck. The bulkhead filled his view; the arrester baffle caught him. He was flung against what felt like a permacrete wall. As the lights around dimmed and he couldn't see through the canopy any longer, he had a foolish moment of thinking he was dying.
No, you've done that. Doesn't feel like this.


  • Legacy of the Force: Revelation






Jacen manages to slow his StealthX which was accelerating rapidly while simultaneously holding it steady to avoid a crash, this goes to show his telekinetic strength and skill is unparalleled, save for Luke. 



Jacen jerked his head around, suddenly seized by such a powerful sense of immediate danger that his instinct was to fling himself on Niathal and wrap the taxi tight in a Force shield. The vessel bucked hard as if it had been hit by a tidal wave. There was a second of silence before a deafening whump shook it like a box and they were caught in an instant blizzard of what seemed to be glittering snow. It hammered the hull as Jacen fought to hold the taxi steady, oblivious of the pilot's efforts.
Shattered transparisteel.
It seemed to go on for minutes. The pilot was shouting. Jacen straightened up, staring into the rapidly blinking eye of a shaken Niathal, and knew that they had caught the tail end of a huge explosion.

Jacen could feel what had happened, but it was still a shocking sight. Ahead of them, the skylanes seemed to be a gaping hole of nothing-as if a whole mass of speeders had fallen out of the sky, which they clearly had-and for a hundred meters the buildings on either side were like jagged, open mouths. Each transparisteel frontage had been blown out. The Force was torn with anger and fear and shock. The unnatural silence was broken by emergency klaxons and echoing shouts. Jacen realized the taxi's screens had collapsed into the cabin, although still in one piece.




  • Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines





Jacen manages to shield himself and his vehicle from an explosion that damaged or ripped apart every building in a two hundred meter radius. This goes to show that his force barriers are unparalleled, save for Luke. 


The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach. From the fight on Nickel One, she had learned the dangers of letting her head snap back on impact. She tucked her chin, then fought to hold it there as she struck the durasteel wall on the far side of the corridor.


...


Letting his lightsaber deactivate and drop to the floor, he reached toward her, making a twisting motion with his hand.


Jaina felt her chin twisting around and went with it, using the Force to accelerate her whole body into a spin, still leaping toward Caedus, bringing her lightsaber around in a clearing arc.


...


Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life.


But the durasteel into which she slammed was still scorching, and the pain of impact was nothing compared to the sizzling shock of merely contacting the furnace exterior. She dropped to the floor screaming in rage and anguish, her nostrils filled with the stench of singed hair and charred skin, the black GAG utilities still burning on her back.


...


All she needed was to get past his lightsaber and attack the armless side of his body-before she collapsed herself, or he recovered enough to kill her with one last Force blast.




  • Legacy of the Force: Invincible




Jacen is shown to be the superior of his twin sister, Jaina Solo. He managed to do this while previously sustaining injuries. These injuries include a hole in his shoulder, a shattered kneecap, a crushed ankle, only one arm, a stab wound to his gut, and a broken ribcage.




Cute, okay, so you’re using all these nice feats, but in a direct confrontation, Luke utterly fucking stomps him. 


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.
"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."
"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."
The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.
Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
[...]
"Then I'll take it for what it's worth," Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."




EC wrote:Darth Vader is at the far bottom of our scaling chain, and even he outclasses a more powerful iteration of Revan



LotF Luke >> Yuuzhan Vong War Luke >>> DE Luke ~ DE Sidious >>>> RotJ Luke >~ Darth Vader > Revan Reborn > Revan (KotOR)



With parity to Grand Master Luke Skywalker – one of the most powerful mortal Force-users to ever live – Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus is clearly among one of the most powerful mortal Force-users in galactic history. His incredible pain tolerance and ability to draw on it to fuel himself are unparalleled by any other Force-user, and that’s what truly makes him exceptional as a combatant. 




So, you have no argument whatsoever? Jacen cannot scale off of Luke, DE Luke is not an equal to DE Sidious, and Vader is not more powerful than Revan Reborn. Alright, so let’s examine something else. 


Revan’s claim to fame these days, especially for his KOTOR iteration, is the Malak quote. Revan scales so vastly above all of ToTJ it’s actually funny. 


Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:Caedus took it in his stride. This was meant to be, to put him in the right frame of mind to win. The bridge around him distorted a little and the colors seemed to leach out, but he recognized his anger and grabbed the reins to make it serve him. Unlike the bloodfin’s unlucky rider, he wouldn’t fall and be devoured by it.  He reached out to his commanders and imbued them all with a little more aggression, a little less willingness to play by the rules of engagement.



[...]





The adrenaline and pure white rage looping back to him from the individual commanders made his throat tighten. It was almost like a back-pressure effect, that the passion for the battle that he was channeling into them gained power and momentum, and syphoned back into him as a changed and magnified thing that he felt he had to vent from his chest or scream.



He was out of breath. He hoped nobody noticed. It might have looked as if he were panicking.



[...]




He could no longer pick out the individual crew and their stations around him in the Anakin Solo, just a complex tapestry of emotions, and that was the state of near blindness that he needed to push his way into the minds of strangers many kilometers away on the planet beneath.



[...]




Caedus saw what the Fondorians operating the shield facility might see; he had no idea what the actual location looked like, but he didn’t need to waste his strength projecting his consciousness to actually observe. Any imagined scene would do to focus him as the torrent of anger and raw nerves of a hundred or more commanders poured back through him.




[...]




Caedus dropped into that white noise of the feelings and thoughts of billions on Fondor, and heard the one repeating note out of kilter with the rest. He focused. In seconds, it filled his head to the exclusion of all else.



He was aware of solid, real beings moving around him on the ship, but he was now more aware of the shield generator facility five kilometers east of Oridin and the minds of the control room team. There were more of them than usual, he could feel that. There was a sense of having strangers around, as if they’d called in extra staff and were running emergency operations, which fitted a facility that probably ran on standby with droids and a caretaker crew most of the time.


[...]




Caedus concentrated on projecting an impression that the GA Fleet and its allies had been driven off, and now ships needed to return to base under the protection of the shield. There was urgency in it, because many of the vessels were damaged and needed to land before atmosphere vented or hulls gave way.  He flooded the operators’ minds with an urge to get the ships to safety as soon as possible, all kinds of worries and concerns about family members who might be on board, a burning sense of saving people, of pulling out all the stops…




[...]



Shields down!” It wasn’t Nevil’s voice, but that of the weapons officer. Caedus was still drifting in that fog of minds, drowning in their panic and urgency, and not here with the ship that was going to unleash their worst nightmare. 



[...]




On the monitor, he could see a fireball spreading and debris billowing up into the atmosphere on a plume of rolling smoke. Now he needed other GA vessels to turn toward the planet and press home their advantage.  He wondered if he could even move. He was drained, and for a moment he couldn’t even grip the arms of his seat.





[...]




Caedus felt stronger now, but the raw energy of the battle link with his commanders, built up and discharged into the minds of the Fondorian shield technicians, hadn’t yet returned.  Exhausted, he had to rely on the natural skill of the commanders who’d rallied to him.”



Alright EC, so we can see that Caedus near his prime, is exhausted from BMing what, 100 people? That’s just so weak that it’s sad. KOTOR Revan scales so far above Kun TP dominating the minds of all the people that saw his battleship attack a hangar that it’s funny.




Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook wrote:"Help!"


"No one will help you, no one even knows."


"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"


"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"


"Who.. are you?"


"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."



Alright, I still haven’t delved into one of Revan’s best feats, clearing the SF gauntlet. Revan manages to defeat a wealth of foes, including hundreds of SF droids that Malak thinks can defeat any Jedi of the Order.. Bar Revan. Revan then goes on to fight Bastila on one of the most potent nexuses ever, while she is constantly regenerating her power. After this, he goes on to fight a bunch of the SF’s most powerful droids, and then defeats Malak 8 times consecutively, all while extremely tired. Revan’s defeat of Malak, while a close fight does categorize as a stomp because Malak is constantly revitalizing himself, and Revan literally beats him 8 times. 


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >>> TP Dominating hundreds of people. 


It’s worth noting that Caedus was using BM, so as a result, we can scale KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >> being so powerful Bastila fears she’ll turn back to the dark side in his very presence. 


Bastila of course, manages to aid an entire fleet with BM when she returns to the LS, also while on the fucking Star Forge. 


Revan also scales from Malak’s domination of the Star Forge. The Star Forge is a Dark Side Nexus unlike any in the galaxy at the time--it is one of the most potent, ever. The Jedi Exiles, such as Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, etc got their power from one of the Star Maps, a small fraction of the SF. And Malak dominates it.




Ajunta Pall wrote:"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."



Ajunta Pall was the leader of the Exiles, and his Shadow Hand Karness Muur was absurdly powerful, evidenced by his showings in Legacy.




Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.



So in terms of scaling chains, to conclude, we’re left with these. 


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >>> TP Dominating hundreds of people >> Caedus


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> SF Bastila >>> SF LS Bastila > BMing a fleet >> Caedus


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >>> Dominating the SF >>>>> A star Map ~> The Jedi Exiles collectively >> Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur > Vong Krayt and/or Cade Skywalker. 



EC wrote:Now I have laid out the cards, do you still want to play?



@EmperorCaedus I’ll see your Caedus ~ LOTF Luke >>>>>>> ROTJ Luke ~ ROTJ Vader > Revan Reborn > KOTOR Revan and raise you KOTOR Revan >>>>>> Kun >> TP Dominating hundreds of people >> Caedus.
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 24th 2019, 12:57 pm
Good thread
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 25th 2019, 12:53 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I. Vader/Revan Comparison & Further Arguments.


IG wrote: wrote:
 Okay, so from the very beginning, your argument is flawed. For one, there are so many circumstances at play here that this cannot be seen as an accurate showing of Vader’s power. I think that this quote sums the situation up pretty well:


The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote:


It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star.


While I realize that Fact Files are in-universe, and therefore, it is best to take them with a grain of salt, it is worth mentioning that they are written by New Republic historians, so the closer to the NR era you get (and RoTJ is literally a year a way), the more reliable they are. 


Furthermore, 


Return of the Jedi Adult Novelization wrote:

 “Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed”


I mean, this also proves that Vader had been amping himself tremendously. He had minutes to amp himself. He’s quite literally charging himself to max potency possible, erecting the most powerful barrier he can around himself in a last-ditch effort to kill Sidious.

I don’t see how an in-universe fact file refutes my excerpt directly from the novelization, as my excerpt is canonically superior. Second, focusing does not equal amping himself up. What exactly is he charging? What barriers are being mentioned? Vader is merely just focusing. In the following quote,

The Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:
“Beside the Emperor, Darth Vader continued to stand and watch. He looked to the Emperor again, then back to Luke…

“And then, in a moment, something changed. Perhaps he remembered something heard in his youth a long time ago.”

The excerpt above from the Return of the Jedi novelization describes the thinking process as a moment of thinking. It was a last second attempt to save Luke, not something he was charging for minutes on end.

IG wrote:So, you’re comparing a ridiculously amped Vader to Revan recovering from torture, and ludicrously hindered by the Kaas nexus. The same Kaas that was able to hinder the likes of FoTJ Luke to a noticeable degree.

Like I already explained, Vader was not amped. If anything, his actions were hindered because he was tired from getting battered by Luke not even a couple minutes earlier. Also, his hand was chopped off. Vader’s only boost was his focus on killing the Emperor, and it isn’t even remotely comparable to an actual amp, i.e the Star Forge.

IG wrote:
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.


Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.


A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.


Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.


Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.


The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.


Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid. 


T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.


“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.


He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.


The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.


The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.


* * *


Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.


What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.


Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.


It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan


Conveniently enough, you’ve already quoted the passage I need for me. “The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head. Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done”.  So, it’s pretty evident from the passage that Vitiate was charging his lightning to an absurd potency.

Yes, Vitiate was charging his force lightning up. But you claim that it took “a couple minutes” to charge. The passage describes “The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and signed where the lighting had struck him.” Rising to your feet does not take a couple minutes, it takes mere seconds at most, which is not nearly the amount of time given to Nyriss. It was a comparison of the ability, not time amount.

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:
“Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revanís head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jediís chest.”


Scourge could smell burning flesh as Revan screamed once then collapsed to the ground, unconscious. 

Revan was distracted at Meetra’s death, but it doesn’t explain how little Vitiate had to do to incapacitate Revan so easily. It wasn’t a charged blast, because Vitiate did not know Scourge was going to betray Meetra, and thus didn’t have anything to charge for.

IG wrote:

He, ironically enough, charged his force potency, not unsimilar to how Vader did, but Vader had to charge his for a lot longer, and have a circumstantial love amp to even be able to tank Sidious’ split-second reaction lightning.

Except Vader didn’t charge anything, I already refuted the claim it above. There is also no evidence supporting that Vader had a love amp, yes he wanted to save Luke from Palpatine, but it was his increased focus that allowed him to do that.

IG wrote:
To contrast, Revan manages to hold in Vitiate’s lightning for, yes, seconds, but this lightning was charged to an absurd potency.

Revan never manages to hold Vitiate’s lightning in,

The Old Republic: Revan wrote:
And he [Vitiate] unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.”


Scourge could smell burning flesh as Revan screamed once then collapsed to the ground, unconscious"

It is explained that when Vitiate hits Revan with the blast, Revan “immediately screams, then collapses to the ground, unconscious.” So he didn’t hold Vitiate’s lightning at all.

IG wrote:Yes, Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate, but there are too many circumstances at play here to use Vader’s lightning thing as a reasonable feat to scale off of. Also EC, I don’t know if you realize this, but Vader died.

The only thing Vader has is increased focus. Vader was never amped during the time Sidious was killing Luke, unless you consider focus an amp, which is isn’t. And Vitiate could've killed Revan as well, but he claimed to have 'other' plans for Revan. 

IG wrote:
Sure, but Luke is outright fried to a crisp by Sidious. Like, it’s not even a contest. There is no competition whatsoever, Luke just gets annihilated, so there’s no reason for you to scale Luke himself from Vader’s (extremely questionable) feat.

You missed the point. The whole purpose of the Vader vs Sidious argument was to draw comparisons to the Revan vs Vitiate, not to scale Luke from it.


Luke ~> Vader > Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.



II. Luke Skywalker scaling chain


A. Luke Skywalker vs Sheev in Dark Empire


IG wrote:EC, I like you, I really do, but this is the most cancerous argument I’ve ever argued against, and I’ve argued against MyGod. It’s common knowledge that Leia is described to have “unlocked additional resources” within Luke, ie she unlocked his full potential. He’s practically in Oneness. You can’t scale DE Luke having parity to DE Sidious via his full potential, that makes no sense.


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Unname10


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Unname11



The following images confirm that Leia’s battle meditation had a minimal to no effect of the duel between Luke and Sidious. The first image implies that Luke didn’t even sense Leia’s battle meditation, if it had a serious effect, Luke would’ve definitely noticed.

The second image states that Leia’s battle meditation was ‘elementary’ and she didn’t even know that she used it, implying that Leia doesn’t have mastery, or even control of her battle meditation. 

IG wrote:It’s common knowledge that Leia is described to have “unlocked additional resources” within Luke, ie she unlocked his full potential.

“Unlocking additional resources” could mean a variety of things. The word “additional” means adding to, which means that Luke already had these said resources. Basically “additional resources” can be overridden by the “elementary” battle meditation, meaning that it wasn’t that much, if anything at all.

How does “unlocking additional resources” at all mean unlocking his full potential? I’ve already explained it was added. And I refuted the quote already, it was overridden by the “elementary” quote.

DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Vader >> Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands. 




B. Luke Skywalker during the Jedi Academy Series/Vong War


IG wrote:How would Luke be able to move a dovin basal in DE? He never knew they existed.


Read the following quotes, 

Star Wars: Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:
"To his surprise, Kun recognises the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force."

Star Wars: Jedi Academy - Jedi Search wrote:
When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled.

The first quote states that Luke has grown “much more powerful in the force” since Exar Kun saw him four years earlier.

The second quote states directly states that Luke’s powers since Dark Empire have been “redoubled” insinuating that JA Luke is twice as powerful as Dark Empire Luke, who is twice as powerful as RotJ Luke. 

As he continues his growth rate, he starts as RotJ Luke in 4 ABY, then by 9 ABY he doubled in power, then by 11 ABY he doubles again, it’s safe to say he has grown an absurd amount from 11 ABY (The end of Jedi Academy) to 21 ABY (The start of the Yuuzhan Vong War.



Thus, Vong War Luke >>>> JA Luke >>> DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Vader >> Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.






III.  Luke and Caedus Argument & Rebuttals.


Let’s bring back the Luke vs Caedus breakdown from my last post.

A. Luke Skywalker vs Darth Caedus Breakdown


EC wrote: wrote:
I am aware that Luke has almost every conceivable advantage over Caedus, and pretty much all force users in the galaxy for that matter. Luke has had decades of experience, training, and fighting other force users then Caedus has ever had. However, this does not mean that Caedus isn’t in the same league as Luke, in fact I believe he is in the same league as Luke. 


"I'm afraid so, "he said. "I don't feel any Jedi presence at all, and if I don't, then neither do you-nothing real, anyway."

"That's because he doesn't want you to feel him, "Ben said. He sensed his father very near now, on the same deck and moving fast. "But he's here."

Ben glimpsed a dark figure stepping into the doorway. "I don't think you'll need any help finding him, Jacen. Dad's right behind you."



[…]



"[Luke] was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse."


In this passage, Luke takes the offensive initiative with an element of surprise. Luke is crippled with agony because his son is being tortured by his nephew, Darth Caedus. To my mind the fact that Caedus was able to react at all to Luke’s attempted coup de grace, and readjust his defense in the middle of Luke’s thrust speaks volumes to Caedus own skill as a combatant. 


Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, Caedus had to protect his heart and head, suggesting that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus, not subdue. Furthermore, If Luke was aiming to incapacitate Caedus in the most painful way he could think of in that moment, I feel comfortable saying that Luke was going into this fight all out, with everything he could throw at Caedus.


"Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been."


Caedus was able to dodge a possible death blow from his uncle, proving once more that Luke was aiming to kill Caedus. as the fight commenced Luke and Caedus clashed with their blades several more times. 


"Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.


Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.


The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."


As Luke pushed the offensive, Jacen was able to fool his uncle into thinking he would employ Force lightning and instead, smash him with a tendril and momentarily pin him against the wall. In this moment, Caedus could’ve killed Luke, but he believed his force powers were enough to restrain Luke.


"Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-



-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing."




Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. Which reinforces the notion of Caedus being in the same league as Luke as a combatant. 




"Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. 

Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.

The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room."


Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which suggests that Ben has ended the fight for Luke, not Luke himself.



IG wrote:
Yeah, except for the fact that Luke still manages to beat Jacen, despite Jacen having every conceivable advantage in this scenario, and Luke in this grief-torn, angry state is literally matched by fucking Lumiya. Are you seriously telling me Lumiya ~ LOTF Luke? 

Alright, this leads nicely into my next topic

B. Comparisons between Luke vs Caedus, and Luke vs Lumiya


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later. 
Then, as she began to raise her arm again, he ran at her, so close in that she couldn't get the whip traveling at its maximum lethal speed. He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.
One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.
Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.
Luke reached out and caught her hand as she fell, whip tumbling and bouncing down the steep rock face into oblivion. He leaned back, all his weight on his heels, knuckles clenched white with the strain of holding her weight, and for a second he wanted to see her face dwindling as she fell to her death, mouth open in a scream, but that wasn't the way to end this.
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.
Here is the entire fight, I will be breaking it up into sections as the fight progresses, and comparing it to Caedus's fight with Luke.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:"She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later."

The fight starts off, and we are already given the notion that Skywalker is the clear superior. 

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse."


In comparison, Luke’s fight with Caedus starts neutral, even when Luke masked his presence in the force to get the element of surprise.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge."

Luke was quite literally battering Lumiya, Lumiya is close to the edge of the mesa.

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.


Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.


The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.”

In contrast, as Luke pushes the offensive, Jacen is able to fool his uncle into thinking he will employ Force lightning and instead, he proceeds to smash him with a tendril and momentarily pis him against the wall. Like I said in my previous post, Caedus could’ve killed Luke in this moment, and even messes with Luke.

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.

Luke then proceeds to batter and ragdoll her at the edge of the Mesa.

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:“Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck, which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.”

Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. 

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.

The fight ends with Lumiya about to fall of the Mesa, but Luke picks her back up and promptly decapitates her. 

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:“Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to gammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.

Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which ends the fight, not Luke ending it himself.


Yeah, except for the fact that Luke still manages to beat Jacen, despite Jacen having every conceivable advantage in this scenario, and Luke in this grief-torn, angry state is literally matched by fucking Lumiya. Are you seriously telling me Lumiya ~ LOTF Luke?

Now back to this point, have you not read my opener? Luke had the advantage from the start by ambushing Caedus while he wasn’t expecting it, Caedus literally ignites his saber just in time for himself not do get stabbed fatally. And as I explained, Luke and Caedus had a competent matchup, while Luke quite literally ragdolls Lumiya.






C. Caedus’s Matchup Rebuttal Defense



Cute, okay, so you're using all these nice feats, but in a direct confrontation, Luke utterly fucking stomps him

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:


In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.

"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."

Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.

"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.

[...]

"Then I'll take it for what it's worth," Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."

In Inferno (the 6th book) Caedus was caught by surprise, but he learned from his mistakes. Caedus gets surprised by Luke again, but is able to hold his own as I’ve explained. Subsequently confirming that he learned from his duel with Luke in Inferno, therefore he is superior then he is shown in this fight. Invincible is the last book in the series, he has had a lot of time to grow since then. 

IG wrote:So, you have no argument whatsoever? Jacen cannot scale off of Luke, DE Luke is not an equal to DE Sidious, and Vader is not more powerful than Revan Reborn

My arguments are all here, every single one of my arguments still stands.


Thus, LotF Luke >?> Vong War Luke >>>> JA Luke >> Darth Caedus (Anywhere between DE Luke and Vong War Luke) >> DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Vader >> Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.




IV. Debunking Your Arguments 


A. Caedus vs Luke in Inferno Comparison




Legacy of the Force: Revelation wroteCaedus took it in his stride. This was meant to be, to put him in the right frame of mind to win. The bridge around him distorted a little and the colors seemed to leach out, but he recognized his anger and grabbed the reins to make it serve him. Unlike the bloodfin’s unlucky rider, he wouldn’t fall and be devoured by it.  He reached out to his commanders and imbued them all with a little more aggression, a little less willingness to play by the rules of engagement.


[...]


The adrenaline and pure white rage looping back to him from the individual commanders made his throat tighten. It was almost like a back-pressure effect, that the passion for the battle that he was channeling into them gained power and momentum, and syphoned back into him as a changed and magnified thing that he felt he had to vent from his chest or scream.


He was out of breath. He hoped nobody noticed. It might have looked as if he were panicking.


[...]

He could no longer pick out the individual crew and their stations around him in the Anakin Solo, just a complex tapestry of emotions, and that was the state of near blindness that he needed to push his way into the minds ot strangers many kilometers away on the planet beneath

[...]


Caedus saw what the Fondorians operating the shield facility might see; he had no idea what the actual location looked like, but he didn’t need to waste his strength projecting his consciousness to actually observe. Any imagined scene would do to focus him as the torrent of anger and raw nerves of hundreds and more commanderspoured back through him.


[...]


Caedus dropped into that white noise of the feelings and thoughts of billions on Fondor, and heard the one repeating note out of kilter with the rest. He focused. In seconds, it filled his head to the exclusion of all else.


He was aware of solid, real beings moving around him on the ship, but he was now more aware of the shield generator facility five kilometers east of Oridin and the minds of the control room team. There were more of them than usual, he could feel that. There was a sense of having strangers around, as if they’d called in extra staff and were running emergency operations, which fitted a facility that probably ran on standby with droids and a caretaker crew most of the time.


[...]


Caedus concentrated on projecting an impression that the GA Fleet and its allies had been driven off, and now ships needed to return to base under the protection of the shield. There was urgency in it, because many of the vessels were damaged and needed to land before atmosphere vented or hulls gave way.  He flooded the operators’ minds with an urge to get the ships to safety as soon as possible, all kinds of worries and concerns about family members who might be on board, a burning sense of saving people, of pulling out all the stops…


[...]


Shields down!” It wasn’t Nevil’s voice, but that of the weapons officer. Caedus was still drifting in that fog of minds, drowning in their panic and urgency, and not here with the ship that was going to unleash their worst nightmare. 





[...]




On the monitor, he could see a fireball spreading and debris billowing up into the atmosphere on a plume of rolling smoke. Now he needed other GA vessels to turn toward the planet and press home their advantage.  He wondered if he could even move. He was drained, and for a moment he couldn’t even grip the arms of his seat.




[...]




Caedus felt stronger now, but the raw energy of the battle link with his commanders, built up and discharged into the minds of the Fondorian shield technicians, hadn’t yet returned.  Exhausted, he had to rely on the natural skill of the commanders who’d rallied to him.”




Alright EC, so we can see that Caedus near his prime, is exhausted from BMing what, 100 people? That’s just so weak that it’s sad. KOTOR Revan scales so far above Kun TP dominating the minds of all the people that saw his battleship attack a hangar that it’s funny.


A couple things to note about this, yes it is near a prime Caedus, but it still isn’t. Secondly, we have no possible way of gauging the number of people Caedus BMed that day. It claims “hundreds and more” which means that it could possibly mean 100, 300, 500, etc. There is no way of knowing how many people he BMed, so you can’t use this as a way of gauging Caedus’s power.




B. Exar Kun Comparison Debunked


IG wrote:
Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook wrote:

"Help!"


"No one will help you, no one even knows."


"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"


"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"


"Who.. are you?"


"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

There is no number of people being mentioned. It just says “I blinded every scanning technician.” How many is that? 10? 50? There is no way of finding out, thus you can’t use this feat as it’s subjective.




B. Revan Debunked


Defeating droids? How exactly is that feat comparable in anyway to what I’ve mentioned above.

IG wrote:Revan's defeat of Malak, while a close fight does categotize as a stomp because Malak is constantly revitalizing himselv, and Revan literally beats him 8 times.




Malak did not defeat Malak 8 times. In the duel, Malak used the Force to drain the life force from the one of the Jedi, transferring it to himself. But Revan freed all of the Jedi spirits that we're held captive, thus shortening Malak's supply of energy and allowing them to become one with the force. So instead of facing 8 Malaks, he was releasing the Jedi spirits instead. If faced against 8 Malak’s, all drawing from the full power of the Star Forge, he would have certainly been defeated.  

IG wrote:Revan then goes on to fight Bastila on one of the most potent nexuses ever, while she is constantly regenerating her power.

Bastilla is quite literally fodder. None of her feats are comparable to Caedus.

Star Wars: The Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:"Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."

Star Wars Databanks: Bastila Shan wrote:"The next time Revan encountered Bastila, she was a dark warrior filled with rage."

The battle was described as intense and climatic between the two fighters, which is really low for Revan. 

IG wrote:KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >>> TP Dominating hundreds of people.

There is no evidence to support that the Star Forge hampered Revan’s abilities. It enhanced Malak’s, but did not hamper Revan. And you mentioning a ‘tired’ Revan segways into my next argument.





A. Comparing Revan’s and Caedus’s Strength and Endurance



Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
"In your condition, standing is out of the question, "the droid informed him. "Even if the swelling in your brain doesn't destroy your balance, you have burn damage to your kidney and a perforation in your lung. You're simply too weak."


Caedus is stated to suffer from serious wounds after his fight with Luke that would kill an average Jedi Master.

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:"No painkillers - I need a clear head. Actually, Caedus was feeding on the pain, burning it like fuel to keep his hormone levels high and his mind alert. 

Caedus is stated to “feed on his pain, using it as fuel to keep his mind alert.” You claim that Revan gets ‘extremely’ tired after fighting Bastila Shan, and fighting droids. f Revan gets hampered because he is simply ‘tired’ then Caedus simply outmatches Revan because Caedus went toe to toe with the confirmed most powerful, Luke. And when fighting Luke, Caedus’s pain “fueled him and kept his mind alert” clearly meaning he gets amped by physical pain, unlike Revan who simply just gets tired.


IG wrote:It's worth noting that Caedus was using BM, so as a result, we can scale KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >> being so powerful Bastila fears she'll turn back to the dark side in his very presence

Where is the quote that Bastila fears Malak? Also I debunked a lot of this, scroll up.

IG wrote:Bastila of course, manages to aid an entire fleet with BM when she returns to the LS, also while on the fucking Star Forge.

Like I said, the Star Forge doesn’t give any hindrances. And like with the Kun feat I debunked, there is not an exact number, how many people is an entire fleet? It’s all very subjective.


IG wrote:
Revan also scales from Malak’s domination of the Star Forge. The Star Forge is a Dark Side Nexus unlike any in the galaxy at the time--it is one of the most potent, ever. The Jedi Exiles, such as Ajunta Pall, Karness Muur, Sorzus Syn, etc got their power from one of the Star Maps, a small fraction of the SF. And Malak dominates it.


Ajunta Pall wrote:

"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."

The Star Forge is described as an amp. Malak can’t dominate the Star Forge, all it does is just give him increased power levels then regular base Malak. “So much power, it is blinding.” This quote claims that the Star Forge has the power, and it grants it’s wielder access to said power. Malak didn’t dominate anything.

IG wrote:


Ajunta Pall was the leader of the Exiles, and his Shadow Hand Karness Muur was absurdly powerful, evidenced by his showings in Legacy.


Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

There is no evidence suggesting that Muur ~ Spirit Muur. There was literally thousands upon thousands of years separating Muur to Spirit Muur. As far as I’m concerned, this is just irrelevant information. Also, Ajunta does not scale above Spirit Muur as a result of this. 

IG wrote:
KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >>> TP Dominating hundreds of people >> Caedus


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> SF Bastila >>> SF LS Bastila > BMing a fleet >> Caedus


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >>> Dominating the SF >>>>> A star Map ~> The Jedi Exiles collectively >> Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur > Vong Krayt and/or Cade Skywalker. 

This whole listings of scaling chains have been debunked, scroll up.




V. Conclusion


The final scaling chain we are left with is:


LotF Luke >?> Yuuzhan Vong Luke >> Darth Caedus (sitting somewhere between DE and LotF) > DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Darth Vader > Revan (Reborn) >> Revan (KotOR).


All of my points still stand, you have yet to debunk a single one of my points, while I have debunked all of yours. Maybe you should just walk away from all of this while you still can, as clearly I have the superior argument, my friend.


Last edited by EmperorCaedus on November 25th 2019, 3:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 25th 2019, 2:13 am
Wow this is a really fast SS. Interresting.
EmperorCaedus
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

on November 25th 2019, 3:56 pm
Had to edit due to some quote issues
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IdrisianGraecus)

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