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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:44 pm
Won't be responding to any debates for the rest of the day. Don't want to have to be hanging around my comp because I might have to potentially respond to something. 

Thought I'd do the courtesy of letting you know so you wouldn't have to worry about it either in case it was a concern for you.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:50 pm
Starkiller wins.

After looking back at Vaylin's feats recently, I don't find her to be as impressive as I once did.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:43 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:Starkiller wins.

After looking back at Vaylin's feats recently, I don't find her to be as impressive as I once did.

By feats, Dread Seed Tagriss takes Starkiller to the curb. Vaylin isn't remotely necessary.

BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:49 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:Starkiller wins.

After looking back at Vaylin's feats recently, I don't find her to be as impressive as I once did.
She's a lot more impressive than Galen, who's around TFU 2 Vader level at his peak (a Vader who's << ESB Vader). Vaylin's ~ end of KOTET Outlander, destroyed generators from orbit, banished Valkorion with a Force wave, one-shotted Arcann and Senya at the same time, and been stated to have the potential to = or > pre-Ziost Vitiate.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:58 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:Starkiller wins.

After looking back at Vaylin's feats recently, I don't find her to be as impressive as I once did.
She's a lot more impressive than Galen, who's around TFU 2 Vader level at his peak (a Vader who's << ESB Vader). Vaylin's ~ end of KOTET Outlander, destroyed generators from orbit, banished Valkorion with a Force wave, one-shotted Arcann and Senya at the same time, and been stated to have the potential to = or > pre-Ziost Vitiate.

She has the potential to surpass post-Ziost Valkorion.

But yeah, even Dread Seed Tagriss (who is likely inferior to KOTFE Arcann) was able to ragdoll post Act 3 HoT "like a fly," summon black holes, and simultaneously create a force barrier that was invulnerable to the protags' attacks. I'm not sure I see SK on that level in terms of feats.
BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:00 pm
She has the potential to surpass post-Ziost Valkorion.

Eh, I find that unlikely. He only feared her and locked her away before Ziost, not after. 

But yeah, even Dread Seed Tagriss (who is likely inferior to KOTFE Arcann) was able to ragdoll post Act 3 HoT "like a fly," summon black holes, and simultaneously create a force barrier that was invulnerable to the protags' attacks. I'm not sure I see SK on that level in terms of feats.

If those are game mechanics, I wouldn't take them literally.
The Apprentice
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:38 pm
@BreakofDawn

who's around TFU 2 Vader level at his peak

Baseless.



BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:39 pm
Really starting to think you have a tracker for the word "Vader".
The Apprentice
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:47 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Really starting to think you have a tracker for the word "Vader".

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Praxis
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:35 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Hmmm, I think this thread is hyperfocusing on environmental feats and autistic death explosions rather than a holistic comparison between the two, so lets go through this shall we? This is going to be a bit long so bear with me...

Vaylin

Given the power creep that comes with continuous stories like SWTOR, Dragonball, everything related to Luke, etc. you will always end up with a mountain of scaling where the top tier characters are so far and beyond the characters from earlier in the story that the gap becomes ridiculous; Vaylin is one of those top tier characters. Let's start from the base and work our way up to Vaylin using the Hero of Tython as the Outlander.


Lord Vivicar
This argument has been pretty fleshed out by this point and I'm sure most are already familiar with what it entails so I'll just summarize it. Lord Vivicar was capable of forming mental links with anyone he encountered and used this to create a bond between himself and hundreds of other Jedi Masters. With this bond, Vivicar was capable of mentally dominating the Jedi Masters as well as being able to freely siphon the power from them. The Barsen'thor (Act I), after fighting through "overwhelming ship defenses", defeated Lord Vivicar through the use of a shielding technique which protected the user from the telepathic influence exerted by Vivicar. The shielding technique acted as a function of the Barsen'thor's own personal power, meaning that it was impenetrable by Vivicar even when he was siphoning the power of the Jedi Masters. The HoT is stated to be the most powerful Jedi of the order several times after this battle, therefore Act I HoT > Act I Barsen'thor > Lord Vivicar.

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Act I

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Act I

What Revan says to the HoT (Act II):
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What Revan says to the Barsen'thor (Act II):
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Definition of vanguard:

"the leading units moving at the head of an army" [source]

"the position of greatest importance or advancement; the leading position in any movement or field" [source]

"the forefront of an action or movement" [source]




The First Son
The First Son, who was a Child of the Emperor, was capable of concealing the presence of hundreds of Children across the galaxy all while sitting on the Jedi Council for years without drawing any sort of suspicion.

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To quote DarthAnticus66: "For reference, when Darth Zannah in Rule of Two infiltrated the Jedi Temple, she 'doubted she could maintain the illusion that shielded her dark side powers from detection any longer than that,' i.e. 'a few days at most'."

The First Son was imbued with what was most likely only a minuscule amount of the Emperor's power given how much of his power was divided between Valkorion/his voices, containing Vaylin, the hundreds of other Children etc. and the fact that someone like Syo Bakarn was able to fully suppress The First Son with the help of the Barsen'thor gives credence to this as well. The Vitiate that the Outlander fights during Act III on Dromund Kaas should be stronger than The First Son given that Vitiate is focusing the majority of his remaining power into his last remaining voice (besides Valkorion) as well as being amped by the Dromund Kaas nexus while also being amped by the Dark Temple nexus while also given time to gather his energy before the fight. We know that the voice that the Outlander fights is the majority of what remains of the Emperor's power since after he is defeated on Kaas the majority of his power is locked away in the temple on Yavin IV as the codex entry on Vaylin states (located further down in this post).

Act III HoT > Act III Vitiate > First Son

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Doomsday!Vitiate
Before the Outlander even reaches the temple, they fight through a city of Imperials including Imperial Guard and Sith that have been rallied to protect the Emperor with the help of their companions. By the time the Outlander reaches the Emperor, he has already fought through an army of Imperials on a dark side nexus and then some more Imperials in a dark side nexus with another dark side nexus while also saving his allies from death along the way, and yet still has the energy to resist the influence of the Emperor and the dark side entities within the temple and ultimately defeat the Emperor in the heart of his power. Even after the Emperor was defeated, he still had the remaining energy to collapse the majority of the temple which was intentionally created to contain the power of dark side entities. Both Scourge and Satele state that only the Outlander is capable of resisting the Emperor's influence and defeating him.

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Outlander helping Kira in the Dark Temple:
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Rishi Power Growth
We have Valk, Scourge, and Satele all making comments on how the Outlander's Jedi training shackles their full potential, and we know this is true given that the Outlander experiences a large power growth after going "beyond light and dark" following their training with Satele and Darth Marr. The Outlander trains under Vitiate after they fall to the dark side, giving them access to newfound power. The Outlander suppresses these memories after he breaks free with the help of Orgus Din, but later on the Outlander meets with the spirit of Orgus Din on Rishi during SOR who helps him recover the training [source] . Given that growth is accelerated by the dark side and the Outlander was no longer bound by the dogma of the Jedi he almost certainly experienced a considerable boost in power during his stint under the dark side, so healing this old wound as well as integrating the dark side training into his current self for sure resulted in a respectable growth in power.

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Outlander referring to the memories of their time under Vitiate:
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Valkorion's Midi-chlorian Manipulation and the Outlander's Training
The Outlander had to experience insane KENOBIAN!GROWTH to even compete with Vaylin over the course of KOTET and yet after all that growth the Outlander undergoes during KOTFE the scales are still tipped heavily in favor of Chained!Vaylin during their first fight aboard the Gravestone to the point that the Outlander would have died without Valkorion's interference. Even after all of the growth that the Outlander experiences over the course of KOTET, it's not entirely clear if the Outlander could have defeated an Unchained Vaylin without the help of Valkorion during the fight on Odessen.

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We have Boyd saying Valkorion's presence adds ambiguity to the Outlander's bouts with Vaylin. Note that Vaylin is considered to be second in raw power on the SWTOR totem pole as of KOTET (i.e. above Arcann, the Outlander, and Revan):
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I've illustrated the Outlander's growth over the course of KOTFE/KOTET in a different thread so I'll just throw it in a spoiler (it's ripped out of context so it might read a little weird):

Spoiler:


I. Outlander's Usage of Valkorion's Power
The first time the Outlander uses Valkorion’s power (AOE Force blast against the knights) they are fine [source] . Second time Outlander uses Valk’s power (Force push against Heskal) they are fine [source] . Third time Outlander uses Valk’s power (huge lightning blast hurled at Arcann) they almost die from the sheer power utilized by Valkorion [source] . The only thing keeping the Outlander alive after this ordeal is Valkorion himself as the Outlander mentions. As you stated, Arcann says the Outlander channeling Valkorion's power is weaker than Valkorion in his usual form, either suggesting that Valkorion can’t muster the same power as before, or that the Outlander’s body simply can’t channel that much energy or possibly a mix of both. However, Valkorion's “forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit” quote adds credence to the idea that base Outlander was not capable of properly channeling the full power of Valk during the confrontation with Arcann.

II. Spirit Valkorion and the Physical World
Spirit Valk after absorbing Vaylin's spirit ragdolls the Outlander before Valk performs his mind domination on them [source] . Rarely do we see Valk directly exert his will on the outside world in spirit form. In KOTET Ch.3 he does the “kneel before the dragon of Zakuul” thing to Vaylin [source] as well as when he destroys the holocron in the physical world from the spirit world [source] . Every other time he physically interacts with another person/thing it is with the Outlander who he is tethered to which probably means that he can more easily interact with them as well as exert his will on. As we see in the spirit world battle Valkorion’s spirit is stronger than Outlander/Arcann/Vaylin spirit trio indicating that Valkorion is weaker in the physical world since he doesn't have a body to manifest his powers through.

III. Valkorion's Favor
The idea of Valkorion lying about the amp seems to be in conflict with the source material in my opinion. During the Outlander's fight with Arcann, they receive a buff showing that Valkorion's hand-wave in KOTFE Ch.12 actually did something. You could make the argument that Valkorion was actively buffing them during the fight but by every indication it seems that Valkorion was just observing and letting his mark do the work given the description of the buff in-game. Satele’s comments about Valkorion strengthening the Outlander’s bond to the force seem to be true then given that Valkorion's hand-wave had an observable effect on them. It seems that Valkorion wanted to give the Outlander the extra push to defeat Arcann and see how the Outlander would act upon victory given his comments in KOTET Ch. 9.

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Buff in action during cutscene and gameplay:
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IV. Training
From the dialogue we see with Satele and Marr, it seems to be clear that while the Outlander has the power required to overcome Arcann after Valkorion's buff, they simply just don't have the training to take on an opponent whose use of the Force is completely foreign to what they are used to and the Satele quote above seems to imply that. Marr's comment seems to as well:

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V. Spirit Absorption
Valkorion "dies" and infiltrates the Outlander’s body which knocks the Outlander out long enough to be put in carbonite [source] . Outlander absorbs Arcann’s spirit and is blown back and incapacitiated for what seems to be a little less than a minute or so [source] . Outlander absorbs Vaylin’s spirit which brings them down to their knees but is otherwise fine [source] . The Outlander seems to be getting progressively better at absorbing spirits in a relatively short amount of time since Vaylin's spirit at this point should be far more potent than Arcann's and the absorption of Arcann's spirit did less damage than the absorption of Vaylin's. While you could try and make the argument that this could be due to Valkorion getting better at tethering spirits while inside the Outlander's body, the Outlander still won't struggle with absorbing Vaylin even if they have not absorbed Arcann which seems to indicate that Valkorion doesn't directly have anything to do with how much strain the process imposes.

VI. Outlandish Growth in KOTET
The Outlander’s growth significantly outpaces Vaylin’s incredible unnatural growth after being unchained implying that the Outlander’s growth was highly likely to be unnatural as well, since there are no remarkable events or anything that would cultivate natural growth on such a massive scale. The Outlander goes from getting their ass handed to them by Chained Vaylin to defeating Unchained Vaylin (albeit with some help) then to defeating Arcann and Vaylin in the spirit battle in a span of few months, and this is without any extra training like we see in KOTFE. It's possible that Valk could be advancing the Outlander’s natural growth without enhancing their Force potential, but I’m not aware of that happening anywhere else in the mythos (it’s definitely possible it could have happened somewhere else I’m just not personally aware of anything like that). Given that we have seen others manipulate Force potential (like Plagueis) this seems more likely in the context of the rest of the universe. Valk had to ensure that the Outlander would be able to defeat Vaylin so that his plans could come to fruition, so it makes sense that Valkorion would artificially increase their connection to the force so they could defeat her.

VII. Hollowing Out the Outlander
Valkorion needed the power of Vaylin’s spirit to accomplish his task of taking over the Outlander’s body indicating that the process of hollowing them out required more than the combined strength of Arcann and Valkorion's spirit. Given that Valkorion's spirit is stronger than the combined spirits of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander this implies that the hollowing out process requires power far beyond that of the host. Valkorion was going to remove the Outlander's spirit and replace it with his + Vaylin’s + Arcann’s which collectively is far more powerful than the Outlander's spirit. To harness this collective power, Valkorion would have to perform some type of alteration to the body of the Outlander since we know that Valkorion's spirit alone was too potent for the Outlander to fully channel in KOTFE Ch. 8 without burning out.

VIII. Tying it All Together
The Outlander's body in its KOTFE Ch. 12 state isn't capable of handling the full potency of Valkorion's power. Valkorion strengthens the Outlander's bond to the Force which they then take advantage of during their training with Marr and Satele. Over the course of the story, the Outlander absorbs spirits which can be used as a metric for their growth, especially in regards to KOTET with being incapacitated after absorbing Arcann's spirit to being relatively unfazed after absorbing Unchained Vaylin's spirit. Alongside this, we have the Outlander going from significantly below Chained Vaylin to being above Unchained Vaylin without any sort of additional training or "buddha" moments. Given that the majority of Vaylin's power is unlocked after becoming unchained, it seems highly unlikely that the Outlander would have been able to outpace this growth through normal means. Since we know that Valkorion strengthened their bond during KOTFE, it wouldn't be unprecedented for him to continue doing so over the course of KOTET in preparation for the endgame. Finally, Valkorion's attempt to remove the Outlander's spirit from their body and replace it with the combined power of his spirit and his children's leaves the Outlander with a body capable of harnessing their combined power in the physical world, therefore elevating their potential to unprecedented heights.

"You were an exemplary pawn--one I forged into a vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving my spirit. Now I take your body as my own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor."

Post Scriptum:
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Vaylin's Growth
Vaylin is "stopped in time" (at least that's what the Outlander claims Valkorion's ability does) during Valkorion's pep talk to the Outlander before the fight, but then roughly a minute later when Valk does the freeze again at the end of the fight she is able to break out of it, which prompts Valk to state that she adapts quickly, growing by the moment [source] .

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The growth that Vaylin experiences over the course of KOTFE/KOTET is frequently emphasized with Valkorion constantly reminding the Outlander that he needs to kill Vaylin before she becomes too powerful:
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Vaylin's combat skills improve significantly between her two fights with Senya. In a span of a few months she goes from getting disarmed and beaten by Senya [source] to pressing her to the brink in sabers and ragdolling her with a "flick of the wrist" when she decides to end the fight. The fight demonstrates that Vaylin's augmentation with the Force is what is allowing her to pressure Senya even in spite of her lack of training with a saber.

A Mother's Hope wrote:
With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangled – had been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder. The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.

Senya raised her weapon, only to have it wrenched effortlessly from her hands by the Force. The pike sailed ten meters through the air and into Vaylin’s waiting grasp.

She could crush my skull in an instant, Senya realized. And I’d be powerless to stop her!

...

The next blow nearly took her leg below the knee – at the very last instant Senya snatched her foot clear. But though she'd spared her limb, she was off balance and out of position. Vaylin pounced, hacking and slashing at her mother; what she lacked in technique she more than made up for in speed and relentless aggression.

Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.

She's stronger now. Faster. More confident.

...

Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin's attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve.


...

"You sound like SCORPIO," Vaylin sneered, swiping ineffectually at the air where her target had been a split second before. "Always talking about logic and reason."

"Is that who you take orders from now?" Senya pressed. "A machine?"

Vaylin flicked her wrist, hurtling Senya through the air to slam against the hull of one of the broken vessels surrounding the camp. Senya crumpled to the ground, momentarily stunned.

"SCORPIO is not the Empress!" Vaylin snarled, striding towards her fallen opponent. "She commands the GEMINI fleet, but they all answer to me. I am the one who sits on the Eternal Throne!"



The first time Vaylin even touched a lightsaber was most likely some time during the vanilla story or somewhere around there, so her strong suit in combat is clearly the use of Force attacks rather than a saber [source] .


Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin
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Here we can see that Vaylin is unable to use the Force against acklay while chained [source] , but she can use the Force to break free from BRAIN [source] and destroy the Sanitarium while unchained (but off planet) [source] suggesting that even the void of Nathema isn't enough to stop her from using the Force after she frees herself from her conditioning. We actually see Lana using the Force on Nathema but we know Valkorion is partially shielding her from the void so this doesn't mean anything for those of you inclined to try and make something out of it [source] . The breaking of Vaylin's chains on Nathema is powerful enough to awaken Senya from a coma who is on Odessen [source] . It should be emphasized how powerful the void on Nathema is with characters such as Revan, Scourge, Meetra, Nyriss, the Outlander, Vaylin, Valkorion, Lana etc. all struggling immensely with its effects and how even that is not enough to stop Vaylin from performing incredibly impressive feats with the Force.

The residual energy that is released from BRAIN (which Vaylin tanked the full potency of) is enough to kill the Outlander and co. as well as make Valk run away from it in fear [source] . The fog is actually in-game as well and will kill you if you are touched by it.

Death fog: https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/npc/death-fog-2

As I mentioned earlier, we see Vaylin tank the Nathema blast and making all the creatures in the Sanitarium go mad due to her power:
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As somewhat of an aside, I've seen this quote floating around and people should know that it never actually made it into the final cut of the game, so I would refrain from using it:
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Arcann vs Vaylin (KOTET Ch. 6)
When I initially started writing this I theorized that Vaylin may have been weakened during this fight due to the Outlander using the conditioning on her beforehand since we see her in a weakened state after Valkorion uses the conditioning against her on the Gravestone as we can see by her limping and being dispatched by Scorpio when Vaylin tries to slash at her with her lightsaber [source] . When we look at the fight Vaylin has with Arcann though, Vaylin is not limping so even if she is somewhat weakened it most likely isn't significant [source] . The lesser effect from the conditioning this time around can probably be attributed to a few things: 
1. Valkorion being more powerful than the Outlander so when he uses the conditioning it is more effective than when the Outlander does it.
2. The distance between Vaylin and the Outlander when they use the conditioning vs when Valkorion uses it since we know it has a limited range.
3. Vaylin growing exponentially and her conditioning becoming weaker as she gets stronger.

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To strike a comparison between KOTFE Ch. 16 Arcann and KOTET Ch. 3 Vaylin (the two iterations the Outlander has fought), the Outlander thinks that Vaylin will for sure kill Arcann if they fought:
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Keep in mind this is the guy that was capable of surviving a giant lightning storm from a weakened Valkorion [source]  that killed "hundreds" according to Lana:
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Their duel is relatively even due to the growth that Arcann experiences on his spiritual journey and at the end of the fight, we see Vaylin run away since she doesn't want the Outlander to use the conditioning on her. As she runs away we see her throw a speeder at Arcann to distract him in her escape, which she then presumably catches with the Force and controls in midair in order to land on the vehicle since we see it rapidly spinning off the edge of the balcony, meaning that it is very unlikely that she just landed on it without positioning it first. It's a relatively impressive showing of control since she is able to manipulate a rotating object while in freefall [source] .


Outlander vs Vaylin
I. First fight: Before the fight starts, Vaylin engages Lana which results in Vaylin forcing Lana to backpedal down the hallway as she holds off her assault as can be seen from the lightsaber marks littering the walls and floors of the hall and the engagement ending when the Outlander arrives when Lana is finally cornered by Vaylin and ragdolled. The fight between the Outlander and Vaylin starts and the quantum bomb has 3 minutes before detonation, in that time Vaylin beats the Outlander fast enough so that when she runs away after Valk uses her conditioning against her the Outlander still has time to travel to three different rooms and disable the shield power relays in each room before the bomb detonates implying that Vaylin defeated the Outlander in quick fashion...either that or the Outlander is just incredibly fast which still makes Vaylin look good [source] . The Outlander also states that he believes Vaylin is more powerful than Valkorion who by this point should be more familiar with his power than anyone else.


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When the Outlander fights Vaylin she has this buff on her. Whether you think she is creating this void herself or is a result from being on Nathema for a long period of time the description of it at least implies that the Outlander has to engage her in close quarter combat to defeat her, meaning that the Outlander can only hope to triumph through martial combat rather than long-ranged Force combat due to her being the far superior Force combatant to the protag. This buff shows up in every fight with her so it wasn't caused from her being chained/unchained.

II. Second fight: It's implied when walking through the Outlander's memories that they fought Vaylin while Arcann and Senya took care of the Horizon Guard/Skytroopers. It's possible that after Arcann and Senya defeated the guard that they went and helped the Outlander afterwards, but we don't know for sure.
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After Vaylin is seemingly defeated, she unleashes a Force blast which is powerful enough to ragdoll Arcann and Senya and break Valkorion's barrier that he presumably makes around the Outlander to protect from the initial blast (could also be the Outlander's passive Force barrier but considering Boyd's comments it was probably Valk's).

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An underrated and perhaps a somewhat unknown feat for Vaylin is the amping of what Theron thought was the entire Zakuulan fleet while simultaneously fighting the Outlander and friends [source] . The instant Vaylin dies, the entire Zakuulan fleet retreats and her troops who couldn't have possibly known she died begin surrendering "by the thousands".

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For reference, we know that there are at least 9947 ships in the fleet, and its highly likely there are many more:
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Arcann immediately after Vaylin is killed:
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During the fight on Odessen, Vaylin employs drain on the Outlander and co. which Darth Bane notes to be extremely difficult to do in combat. When you take into consideration that Arcann, the Outlander, and Senya are quite possibly the three most masterful combatants in SWTOR (excluding Revan and Valk) with the least amount of flaws in their technique it demonstrates Vaylin's mastery with the Force.

The ability drains life from the target so it is probably just Drain Life with a different name.
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Book of Sith: The Rule of Two

III. Third Fight: The Outlander and Vaylin engage in a spirit battle in the Outlander's mind which results in the Outlander's victory. However, it should be noted that the Outlander has the help of "memories of healing" that heal them when stepped into by the protag and which also stun and damage Vaylin when she steps into them, which adds some ambiguity to the fight due to the Outlander receiving some semblance of aid. Then again the fight is taking place in the Outlander's mind so the memories of healing could be something subconsciously conjured by the Outlander. It's hard to tell really.

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Summary
All in all, Vaylin is at the minimum on par with end of KOTET Outlander if not above and scales massively above people like The First Son, Lord Vivicar, Act III Vitiate etc. and her mastery of the Force is underrated and seems to be conflated with her mastery with a lightsaber. She has feats such as amping the "entire Zakuulan fleet" during her fight with Outlander and friends, easily defeating early KOTET Outlander who experienced significant growth in KOTFE, and tanking the BRAIN blast on Nathema which the residual energies of were capable of killing the Outlander and Lana.

A Brief Word on Starkiller

Everyone seems to be getting on SK's case as of late, so I just thought I should add my two cents.

I've seen Galen's oneness blast feat be flaunted as something impressive from quite a few...but I think there is a great counterexample to why this might not necessarily be the case that can be found in the final battle of KOTET. If the Outlander enlists the help of Valkorion's father Dramath to help him in the battle, he will attempt to destroy Valkorion with an all-out suicide blast similar to what we see SK do against Sheev aboard the Darth Star. Both suicide blasts fail while only dealing relatively minor damage to the recipient. It seems SK fans use his blast to try and establish him as not being far off of Sheev...but when we take into consideration the similarity of his and Dramath's blasts it leads us to a different conclusion. Valkorion defeated and humiliated his father when he was only ~10 years old by severing him from the Force, so the fact that Dramath is able to damage him in a last ditch all-out attack when the gap between them is insurmountable implies that one doesn't necessarily have to be even remotely close to their opponent in power to damage them in a kamikaze attempt. Galen's blast was also in a state of oneness as well, so he was clearly not operating at base levels, and their is no indication that this was the same case for Dramath...so I'm not sure how we can draw any sort of parallels between Sheev and SK with all of this in mind.

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Dramath kamikaze attack: https://youtu.be/4fVp9G7mCD0?t=69

Also, just a little note here, it says in the codex that Valkorion severed Dramath's usage of the Force yet we see him still being able to use the Force in the final fight which most likely means that Force Sever is something that severs the body from the Force rather than the spirit. So in the spirit battle Dramath still has access to his full power.

When we look at SK's constant lapses in his defense when facing people far less powerful than Vaylin, I doubt he would really stand much of a chance in a Force battle here, especially when people like Arcann and the Outlander weren't capable of breaking Vaylin's Force defenses to the effect of those in the pictures below were able to. 

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Honestly, I don't think SK's combat feats really warrant him being placed on the same level as Vaylin who has dominated some of the most powerful characters in TOR which benefit from scaling that SK just doesn't match in my opinion. A lot of his environmental feats are much more impressive than his combat feats, and considering this is a Force only versus battle the combat feats should take precedence over environmental ones. So all in all, I probably hold SK above Vader but not to the point where he could just ragdoll him on command, so still roughly in the same ballpark, but still considerably below Sheev.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Praxis on Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:57 am; edited 6 times in total
Praxis
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:37 am
Post might be a little messy tbh...but fuck it. Didn't really include environmental feats since SK and Vaylin both have an abundance of those and I don't think it's that relevant to the context of this fight and I also didn't include Vaylin ragdolling random defenseless fodder as we see a lot since I don't find that super impressive.
BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:05 am
Great post, @Praxis. Five things:

1. We can safely eliminate Valkorion as a factor within that fight considering the clear parity between him and chained Vaylin alone and his barrier was quite easily smashed to pieces by Vaylin and he was dissipated in the process. He also struggled to manifest himself during the fight to the point that he could only maintain a semi-visible form for a few seconds. 
2. The healing memory things are definitely just gameplay mechanics. I wouldn't take them any more literally than a Knight of Zakuul knocking the Outlander on his arse throughout KOTET.
3. That barrier wasn't shielding the Outlander; it was shielding Valkorion. I've gone back and slowed the video progression to a crawl and the barrier is clearly in front of Valkorion. You could argue he widened it, but this is inconsistent with all of his other barrier showings.
4. The Outlander was weakened on Nathema, so I wouldn't use it as a fair comparison between him and Vaylin.
5. The Outlander has most likely surpassed Vaylin between the end of KOTET and Onslaught considering that they were already near-equals as of chapter 8 (albeit Vaylin was stronger). That's not to say he's much more powerful (he's really not), but he's experienced considerable growth on top of his KOTET growth, Valkorion enhanced or not. This of course is not particularly relevant to the debate, but I thought it was worth noting.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:21 am
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen13


Sorry for the clumsy circles, but as you can see the barrier is positioned in front of Valkorion. There's even a ripple of energy where it dissipates right in front of him as the camera pans out slightly. Here's a slightly clearer version:

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen50

Note that the energy barrier stops close to Valkorion's left foot. 

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen51
The Outlander is already being knocked backwards before the barrier is broken whereas Valkorion is fine as Valkorion had the foresight to conjure a barrier whereas the Outlander didn't. Also note the energy colliding with them even as the barrier is still there.
Azronger
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:41 pm
Hmmm, I think this thread is hyperfocusing on environmental feats and autistic death explosions rather than a holistic comparison between the two, so lets go through this shall we?

But where's the comparison?
Praxis
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:16 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@BreakofDawn wrote:Great post, @Praxis. Five things:

1. We can safely eliminate Valkorion as a factor within that fight considering the clear parity between him and chained Vaylin alone and his barrier was quite easily smashed to pieces by Vaylin and he was dissipated in the process. He also struggled to manifest himself during the fight to the point that he could only maintain a semi-visible form for a few seconds. 
2. The healing memory things are definitely just gameplay mechanics. I wouldn't take them any more literally than a Knight of Zakuul knocking the Outlander on his arse throughout KOTET.
3. That barrier wasn't shielding the Outlander; it was shielding Valkorion. I've gone back and slowed the video progression to a crawl and the barrier is clearly in front of Valkorion. You could argue he widened it, but this is inconsistent with all of his other barrier showings.
4. The Outlander was weakened on Nathema, so I wouldn't use it as a fair comparison between him and Vaylin.
5. The Outlander has most likely surpassed Vaylin between the end of KOTET and Onslaught considering that they were already near-equals as of chapter 8 (albeit Vaylin was stronger). That's not to say he's much more powerful (he's really not), but he's experienced considerable growth on top of his KOTET growth, Valkorion enhanced or not. This of course is not particularly relevant to the debate, but I thought it was worth noting.

1. Hm, think I'm gonna take Boyd's words over yours considering he is the Creative Director of the game. He clearly states that Valkorion was at least partially responsible for helping the Outlander through the blast.

2. There is a difference between those two things though. The existence of the memories show through the abstraction of gameplay that the Outlander is using them as an aid in his fight against Vaylin, whether that aid was immense or minuscule we don't really know but we do know that they were used in the fight. A knight knocking the Outlander over is different (unless it's a scripted event) since it's not something that is explicitly intended to happen like the appearance of the memories or any other scripted event. As Chee states:

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"Game mechanics are designed to try to to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide scale from which to compare how one character of piece of technology stacks up against another".

3. Why would he put a barrier around himself when the Outlander is his host body? His priority would be to protect the person who acts as his anchor to the physical world since if that is destroyed then his entire plan is screwed. Also, wouldn't it make sense that if Valkorion is creating a barrier that it would manifest through the Outlander since that is kinda how his power always manifests itself?

4. And Vaylin wasn't? We see her unable to TK acklay while Lana (who in addition to the Outlander is being protected from the void by Valkorion) is able to TK Jarak.

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@BreakofDawn wrote:Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen13


Sorry for the clumsy circles, but as you can see the barrier is positioned in front of Valkorion. There's even a ripple of energy where it dissipates right in front of him as the camera pans out slightly. Here's a slightly clearer version:

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen50

Note that the energy barrier stops close to Valkorion's left foot. 

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Screen51
The Outlander is already being knocked backwards before the barrier is broken whereas Valkorion is fine as Valkorion had the foresight to conjure a barrier whereas the Outlander didn't. Also note the energy colliding with them even as the barrier is still there.

Every barrier we have seen in KOTFE/KOTET has been directly in front of the user. The gap between the barrier and Valk in the cutscene with Vaylin isn't consistent with the distance we see in other instances. Why would devs just decide to make the barrier way further out than they always do?

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Much greater distance between Valk and the barrier compared to the examples above. The distance between the Outlander and the barrier is consistent with the other showings:
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@Azronger wrote:
Hmmm, I think this thread is hyperfocusing on environmental feats and autistic death explosions rather than a holistic comparison between the two, so lets go through this shall we?

But where's the comparison?

I suppose it was kind of implicit that I hold everyone who SK fights (bar Sheev) to be below the Outlander's pay grade which I can go more in-depth on at a later date if anyone wants to do that. SK has his guard broken a lot by characters who are his inferior in terms of Force power indicating that he is quite poor at maintaining his Force defenses and only wins due to abusing that large power gap, but I don't think that would work for him against Vaylin since she would just as easily exploit that lapse in his defense and he wouldn't be able to compensate for that with his raw power since their isn't a sizable power gap that he could abuse, or at least not one that I am aware of. The holistic comparison here is that the Outlander ~ Vaylin > everyone SK fights (excluding Sheev but as I stated in the thread I don't think the encounter was really indicative of any sort of remote parity between the two) who were capable of exploiting his defenses and putting him on the ropes only for him to come back due to his raw power, rather than just comparing who could lift the heavier object and make the bigger explosion when they die. The focus of this thread, and from a more meta perspective the forums, have been on SK more so than on Vaylin so that was why it was more Vaylin focused, but yes, my post probably could have benefited more from expanding on SK more. I wanted to provide more balance to all the SK content that has been making the rounds recently by looking at Vaylin beyond just a few of her showings, so this post was made with that in mind.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:40 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Starkiller tbh.
EmperorCaedus
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:47 pm
Vaylin tbh
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:15 pm
@Praxis wrote:I suppose it was kind of implicit that I hold everyone who SK fights (bar Sheev) to be below the Outlander's pay grade which I can go more in-depth on at a later date if anyone wants to do that. SK has his guard broken a lot by characters who are his inferior in terms of Force power indicating that he is quite poor at maintaining his Force defenses and only wins due to abusing that large power gap, but I don't think that would work for him against Vaylin since she would just as easily exploit that lapse in his defense and he wouldn't be able to compensate for that with his raw power since their isn't a sizable power gap that he could abuse, or at least not one that I am aware of. The holistic comparison here is that the Outlander ~ Vaylin > everyone SK fights (excluding Sheev but as I stated in the thread I don't think the encounter was really indicative of any sort of remote parity between the two) who were capable of exploiting his defenses and putting him on the ropes only for him to come back due to his raw power, rather than just comparing who could lift the heavier object and make the bigger explosion when they die. The focus of this thread, and from a more meta perspective the forums, have been on SK more so than on Vaylin so that was why it was more Vaylin focused, but yes, my post probably could have benefited more from expanding on SK more. I wanted to provide more balance to all the SK content that has been making the rounds recently by looking at Vaylin beyond just a few of her showings, so this post was made with that in mind.

There still isn't a comparison here. Outlander and Vaylin > everyone SK fights is just your opinion, not something you have substantiated with a comparison. I'd like to see something more concrete here.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:56 pm
5.  Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 3 1289255181

Will reply to the rest later, but kinda surprised you agreed with that view, tbh.
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