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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 2:26 pm
You formatted your quotes all wrong...
BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 2:30 pm
And you couldn't even use the little button on the interface labelled "'Quote'" when quoting me. We all have our faults; mine is formatting.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 2:42 pm
SK is definitely sub dooku in power now imo. This pretty much seals his fate
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 4:59 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Aside from Vitiate arguably being > TFU Sheev, interesting. So Sean William's word > Lucas. Huh, good to know.

I'd love to see you try to make that argument. : ) 

In what way does that statement contradict Lucas? In no way does it suggest Galen had greater potential then the likes of Anakin. Only that he had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever at that point in time. That would mean the potential to surpass the likes of TFU Sidious since Anakin never reached his potential. Something which Sidious himself states is the case. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Despite failing to do so by TFU2. 

The only times Starkiller confronted Vader in TFU2 was when he had been left in a pit with nothing but the Force to sustain him for 2 weeks and after he'd accomplished a number of feats that left him utterly exhausted and physically shaking prior to confronting Vader. 

His performances in those instances aren't exactly representative of what Starkiller is capable of at peak condition. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Actually, I said I'm "not sure" if it's canon. 

Content that was cut was cut for a reason. That'd be like suggesting an early draft of a SW book that was turned down by the story group has canonical relevance. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I thought the other day that if I broke a weakened support then I could topple a shed. Guess that makes me comparable to Galen.

The difference being that Galen had already accomplished better feats prior, such as sending an army of thousands of droids into the atmosphere with a prolonged Force push that caused a ground-quake as an unintended side effect, meaning there's no reason to doubt the validity of his musings. 

That and the fact that one is a shed and the other is an identical replica of the Jedi temple which is about ten thousand times larger. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Not using gameplay feats considering that they're exaggerated for entertainment purposes. 

1. What you personally accept to be canon or not is irrelevant. Gameplay is confirmed to be relevant to continuity by Chee. 

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another." - Leeland Chee.

2. The skyhook feat occurs in the novel... 

Spoiler:
"The moorings were larger even than he had guessed from the brief plans displayed by the astromech droid. Its mistress's instructions had been simple: destroy the moorings and the skyhook would be ruined. That sounded deceptively easy

-

Their super-strong materials were designed to handle the stresses of holding the massive station directly above, against all the laws of physics. How would he overcome their resistance?

The answer, as always, lay in the Force. The Force was beyond physics. The Force could not be resisted, when wielded by confident hands. The Force would always be sufficient.

Turning his back on the body-strewn battlefield, he put both hands on the base of the nearest mooring. Closing his eyes and his mind to all forms of distraction, he imagined himself at one with the metal, permacrete, and stone. He felt the mooring's strengths and its weaknesses. He resonated with it, until it was hard to tell where his hands stopped and the mooring began.

When he could achieve no greater focus, he reached out for the dark side and let it guide him.

Energy came like a dam bursting, as wild as every predator on Kashyyyk combined but as pure as a laser. He tilted his head back and relished the wonder and terror of what he had brought into being. This was a power far greater than Sith lightning, designed for one single task. He lost himself utterly in that task. He became destruction.

The mooring shook. Its more delicate components-nanowires, sensitive self-regulating systems, microscopic hydraulic channels-fused almost immediately. Once the complex processes maintaining its stability were disrupted, a chain reaction began that could not be stopped. Pressures mounted in areas close to exceeding their maximum load; hairline cracks formed and spread; a deep vibration sprang up that could not be dampened. Even if left to its own devices, the mooring would shake itself to pieces in minutes.

The apprentice maintained his assault until hairline cracks became gaping rents and the vibration shook the world, howling material agony over the renewed firing of blaster cannons. When the first shower of boiling dust and pebble-sized fragments rained down on him, he decided it was time to step back and take stock- and to prevent some hapless stormtrooper creeping up on him and shooting him in the back.

He opened his eyes and looked up. The mooring was barely recognizable as the same structure. Electrical discharges danced across its conducting surfaces. Ultrastressed permacrete flowed like treacle. Larger fragments began to fall and he batted them away with the Force, feeling no more drained by his exertion than he would have from a light run. He almost smiled at his accomplishment, but one stark fact sobered him to the core.

One down. Five to go.

The Imperials were rallying. They needed to be reminded of who they were dealing with. While crossing to the next mooring in line, he detonated fuel tanks and exploded ammunition stores. AT-STs cracked open like seedpods and burst into short-lived flame. He reached his target without encountering serious resistance and brought it down as he had the first.


By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. A trio of TIE fighters shrieked down through Kashyyyk's atmosphere, stitching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution}

With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impact shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.

That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIEs came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings.

Only one mooring remained.

-

At that moment the debris hit with all the force of a hundred shooting stars, striking everything around the base of the skyhook-the sixth mooring included-and crushing the walker into scrap metal. Debris went everywhere. The noise was unimaginable. The apprentice didn't flinch or move in the slightest as rubble rain impacted about him. He only watched, with satisfaction, as the skyhook base ripped free of the planet and recoiled like a whip into the upper atmosphere. The station exploded shortly thereafter, briefly outshining the sun, even through the dust and smoke of his handiwork." - The Force Unleashed.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Indirectly, but ok. 

Directly.

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 OgotsuA

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Ge5Gaoz

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Gameplay mechanics? Cute.

Going to quote this every time you say the same wrong statement: 

"What you personally accept to be canon or not is irrelevant. Gameplay is confirmed to be relevant to continuity by Chee."

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Also, objects are a lot easier to move in space than on a planet. 

Not to the degree that the feats you mentioned for Vaylin even begin to compare. While moving things in space is easier, Galen still needed to create the necessary force to not only overcome the corvette's inertia but accelerate it into another object fast enough to shatter it. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Lol, bull.

[[snip]]

Nearly knocked unconscious within a few seconds while Sidious was using bolts of lightning meant to torture Kota to death, not outright kill him. When Sidious ups the power as he's hit with his own lightning, Galen's on the brink of unconsciousness/death, clinging on with a "feverish will." 


1. Where is it stated that the lightning Sidious was utilizing on Rahm was meant to torture him as opposed to outright killing him? The novel makes clear that Sidious was angry at Rahm and desired his death and stated that he was "concentrated" on him when blasting him with a "fatal" web of energy. 

"A hail of shattered transparisteel and debris drove the Emperor back from Kota, breaking his concentration and freeing the Jedi Master from the fatal web of energy." - The Force Unleashed. 

2. What Galen says is that it's painful enough that he'd want to be unconscious so that he's not undergoing the experience anymore. That's why the text highlights that Galen is struggling not to surrender to unconsciousness when Sidious increases the power of the lightning. This is at the same point that Sidious himself has grown "desperate." 

3. Galen crossing the distance between himself and Sidious and his Force lock lasts for as long as it takes Vader to arrive with reinforcements. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
And by the way? Before you say about him reaching the Emperor, not only was this an intended suicide attack ( meaning he was putting everything he had into reaching Sidious - who was only a few feet away - and was still on the brink of death if it weren't for his willpower keeping him standing) but as I've previous said it took everything he had just to reach Sidious, who was a few feet away. 

1. Why would "putting everything he had into reaching Sidious" be the equivalent of a "suicide attack?"  

2. The distance between Sidious and Galen is depicted as more than "a few feet away" in the comic.  

3. Where does the text suggest Galen is "on the brink of death." At most it only states he was struggling to remain conscious.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
I welcome you finding a quote for this, since the only quote noting is that it "engulfed them both" which is generally what happens when you move two objects emitting some kind of force or energy together (e.g. moving a stick that's burning at one end back into a fire so it's completely engulfed). 


"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed. 

You're welcome. 

Just to let you know, you yourself posted the line when you quoted the passage detailing Galen and Sidious's force lock. It's alright. While this is embarrassing for you, it tends to happen to people who don't actually read the passages they're quoting. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Interestingly enough, I can. Nathema's void: 

[[snip]]

Stopped chained Vayling from even being able to use the Force (chained Vaylin here was even more powerful than the one who ripped that generator apart and broke free from Valkorion's Force hold). 


Well, considering Force user's like Arcann and Lana use the Force on Nathema, you're either asserting that Chained Vaylin is less powerful than those characters or you're leaving out relevant context, that being that Nathema simply makes it harder to focus and draw on the Force and that a character like Vaylin who is already mentally unstable is going to have more trouble then most utilizing the Force under these circumstances. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Was driving Lana insane despite Valkorion doing everything he could to protect them.

"It's worse here. The void - it's hunger. It wants to devour me, mind and spirit. Annihilate every trace of my existence."

Sounds a lot like how Meetra was affected by Nathema in the Revan novel.

"She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence." - Revan. 

Seems to be less a case of "madness" and more a feeling that Force user's tend to have on the planet because as a consequence of the ritual. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Meetra Surik was struggling to stay sane on Nathema for barely five minutes:

[[snip]]

Ah, you attempted to head that one off at the pass, didn't you? I'll commend you for thinking ahead but, again, I'll note that the descriptions of Lana and Meetra's state seem to be suggesting that the planet generally makes Force user's feel that way as opposed to this being them succumbing to "madness." 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Revan could barely draw upon the Force despite only being in Nathema's orbit: 

"The instant the Ebon Hawk dropped out of hyperspace near Nathema, Revan was overwhelmed by a barrage of mental images. Everything came crashing in on him, the memories he was so desperate to regain fusing with a trauma he had tried so hard to repress. Caught between the two, he cried out and clutched his head in his hands. For several seconds he didn’t move, his conscious will battling with his runaway subconscious.

-

T3 was at his side, beeping with concern. Revan blinked away the last of his fugue state and glanced down at the Hawk’s sensors to see what had the little droid so upset. The sensors had picked up another vessel in the system. It was difficult to draw on the Force so close to the ravaged world, and he struggled to get some sense of the passengers on the other ship. By the time his groggy mind registered the threat they posed, it was too late." - Revan.

The quote mentions Revan's proximity to the world being something that makes it more difficult to draw on the Force but it notes that he's already in a "fugue" state as a result of his subconscious memories bubbling to the surface and nearly overwhelming him. So while his proximity to the planet would have been a factor in slowing his reactions and dulling his sense, we know it wasn't the sole contributor. Considering the text only mentions it briefly and gives a whole paragraph to describe Revan's mental state giving him a bout of disassociation and clouding his mind, well, it's indicative that it's the more relevant factor of the two imo. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Lord Scourge's first impression of Nathema: 

[[snip]]

Apprentice Scourge's first impression of Nathema*

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Valkorion could barely manifest himself on the planet. 

[[snip]]

-

Even in orbit, Valkorion was struggling to manifest itself (the same region Unchained Vaylin overloaded those generators): 

[[snip]]

Valkorion is a being made up solely of Force energy at this point, perhaps it's not that Nathema has affected him to a greater degree than the likes of Lana Beniko but the fact that the world he's appearing on seemingly takes in surrounding Force energy in an attempt to fill the void.

"She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence. Nature abhors a vacuum; the emptiness was trying to fill itself with her energy." - Revan. 

Just a thought... 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
So, we have Nathema being capable of completely stripping an Arcann  level+ Force user, leaving Scourge and Revan nearly powerless just by being close to the planet (not even in its orbit), and Valkorion barely being able to manifest himself even when just in the planet's orbit. 

- You have a being who is made up purely of Force energy struggling to maintain his form on a planet that devours Force energy.

- You have a mentally unstable Force user struggling to use the Force on a planet that makes it harder to do so. 

- You have Revan's abilities being hindered to an unknown degree and Meetra and Scourge not being able to use the Force on Nathema at a point when Nathema was a far more potent nexus. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Despite this, unchained Vayling reached across a planet with literally no connection to the Force and overloaded generators from orbit. 

This is arguably less impressive than if she'd done it on planet for the simple fact that her ability to draw on the Force would no longer have been as hindered to the degree it would be if she was on the planet's surface.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
So please, tell me how this isn't an impressive feat?

Nowhere did I say this feat was unimpressive. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
At the very least it puts unchained Vayling as >>> Revan Reborn, Scourge, and even spirit Valkorion. 

No, it does not. RR and Scourge were on Nathema at a time when the nexus was far more potent and Valkorion's state at the time makes maintaining a consistent form on Nathema the equivalent of trying to build a sand castle on the beach when the waves are coming in.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Even using gameplay an accurate representation of his power, this alone >> moving a Tantive IV ship through space with difficulty. 

1. Starkiller accomplished the feat casually. 

2. That's not even close to his best feat.

3. Overloading generators wouldn't even be better than your version of that feat.


Last edited by Syndiciate on November 24th 2019, 5:32 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:04 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:SK is definitely sub dooku in power now imo. This pretty much seals his fate

If you'd like to back up such a claim I'd be more than happy to debate the topic with you.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:07 pm
He’s referring to the ESB Luke comparison
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:10 pm
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:He’s referring to the ESB Luke comparison

I honestly have no idea what they're babbling about. It's ultimately irrelevant to me. Just giving people the opportunity to back up their talk with actual deeds.


Last edited by Syndiciate on November 24th 2019, 5:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
KingofBlades
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:12 pm
No I'm not. I'm referring to Dooku being able to wreck a superior of Vader while being comparably/more fatigued than SK who merely matched Vader.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:14 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:No I'm not. I'm referring to Dooku being able to wreck a superior of Vader while being comparably/more fatigued than SK who merely matched Vader.

So would you be willing to back your man in a debate or not?
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:16 pm
Dooku? Sure.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:20 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Dooku? Sure.

Make the thread then.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:26 pm
Are you referring to an official SS or a more general SK v Dooku thread
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 5:27 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Are you referring to an official SS or a more general SK v Dooku thread

Whatever floats your boat.
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 6:30 pm
I'd love to see you try to make that argument. : ) 


Happy to another time.



In what way does that statement contradict Lucas? In no way does it suggest Galen had greater potential then the likes of Anakin. Only that he had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever at that point in time.

Your argument failed to mention that.


That would mean the potential to surpass the likes of TFU Sidious

Something with no basis considering that even Oneness SK couldn't do anything to Sheev beyond some burns and cause him pain.


The only times Starkiller confronted Vader in TFU2 was when he had been left in a pit with nothing but the Force to sustain him for 2 weeks

Not talking about this.

and after he'd accomplished a number of feats that left him utterly exhausted and physically shaking prior to confronting Vader. 

A transitional period in which it took him time to reach Vader's position, and before Vader had even spoken he was already regaining his strength:


veritable ocean of it. He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being. He felt simultaneously cleansed and poisoned. Nothing moved. Slowly, incredulously, he began to believe that it was over. They were all dead. He had destroyed every last one of them. He was the only one left—of the many Darth Vader had created to do his bidding. “Why me?” he asked the silent cloning tower. “Search your feelings,” Vader said, stepping into view at the very top of the tower, lightsaber held tightly in his right hand. “The answer lies within you.” Starkiller stared up at his former Master. What did he have that none of the other clones did? He remembered: “How long this time?” 
“Thirteen days. Impressive.” And he remembered: 
“The Force gives me all I need.” 
“The Force?” 
“The dark side, I mean.” Slowly a dark understanding began to form. 


All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent—bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat. He didn’t remember the early days of his apprenticeship, when the memories of his parents had been strong and the young boy he had once been resisted Vader’s absolute authority, but he was sure the battle had been even then, psychological. The battle would never cease until one of them won. Was this what it was like to be a Sith? Forever at war with one’s own Master? “Your training made me strong enough to escape you,” he said, “not obey you.” 
“Yet here you are.” Darth Vader’s words fell on him like heavy weights. “My most deadly creation.” 
“You lie!” Starkiller jumped up to the next platform, passion stirring him to action. “You never wanted this. You can’t have. Once Juno has been rescued, your facility will be destroyed. You with it, if there’s any justice.” “There is no justice,” said Darth Vader, watching him ascend. “Only power.” Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn’t waste time announcing his intentions.

The cloning chamber was laid out like this, btw:


Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Images12



So the text suggests the following:


1) Starkiller immediately began focusing on regaining his strength.
2) There was a period between his looking around and realising the clones were all dead and Vader responding to him.
3) Starkiller then had a lengthy monologue where he realised what Vader was doing to him.
4) Vader was at the top of the cloning tower, whereas SK was jumping up the platforms one at a time, meaning that it'd take him a pretty long time to reach the top. 
5) SK doesn't even reach the top until an undefined time after Vader says "there is no justice, only power." The text even specifies this passage of time.


During all of this, SK was regaining his strength over what was almost certainly several minutes. 



Content that was cut was cut for a reason. That'd be like suggesting an early draft of a SW book that was turned down by the story group has canonical relevance. 


Not quite. A lot of SWTOR's KOTET material, including cutscenes and dialogue, was cut for pacing and time issues, not for a lack of continuity. The dialogue with the ships would have extended the struggle by another 20 to 30 seconds or so.



The difference being that Galen had already accomplished better feats prior, such as sending an army of thousands of droids into the atmosphere with a prolonged Force push that caused a ground-quake as an unintended side effect, meaning there's no reason to doubt the validity of his musings. 

Citation needed.



That and the fact that one is a shed and the other is an identical replica of the Jedi temple which is about ten thousand times larger.

I trust you've heard of the domino effect? Remove one structurally vital element, and something can come crashing down. A "junk" temple would be no different. 



1. What you personally accept to be canon or not is irrelevant. Gameplay is confirmed to be relevant to continuity by Chee. 

"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another." - Leeland Chee.

Key word: "Try." Per the Force unleashed creators:


"So we kind of took that along with our desire to reinvent, to reimagine something about Star Wars, and eventually over time came up with this idea of The Force Unleashed, which is the Force obviously, you know, amped up and out of control and totally over the top."

^ Confirmed to be "amped up" and "totally over the top."


2. The skyhook feat occurs in the novel... 



Fusing together internal components isn't exactly a viable option in a 1v1 battle. It's not even a showing of power, just one of control and precision: 

The mooring shook. Its more delicate components - nanowires, sensitive self-regulating systems, microscopic hydraulic channels - fused almost immediately. Once the complex processes maintaining its stability were disrupted, a chain reaction began that could not be stopped. Pressures mounted in areas close to exceeding their maximum load; hairline cracks formed and spread; a deep vibration sprang up that could not be dampened. Even if left to its own devices, the mooring would shake itself to pieces in minutes.





Directly.

I said indirectly as in he didn't go up to the docking station and blow it up. He powered a tool that did the job for him.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Gameplay mechanics? Cute.
Going to quote this every time you say the same wrong statement: 

"What you personally accept to be canon or not is irrelevant. Gameplay is confirmed to be relevant to continuity by Chee."

Cool, I'll just quote this from Blackman: 

"So we kind of took that along with our desire to reinvent, to reimagine something about Star Wars, and eventually over time came up with this idea of The Force Unleashed, which is the Force obviously, you know, amped up and out of control and totally over the top."



Not to the degree that the feats you mentioned for Vaylin even begin to compare. While moving things in space is easier, Galen still needed to create the necessary force to not only overcome the corvette's inertia but accelerate it into another object fast enough to shatter it.

Which he didn't do in the novel or the comic... 


1. Where is it stated that the lightning Sidious was utilizing on Rahm was meant to torture him as opposed to outright killing him? The novel makes clear that Sidious was angry at Rahm and desired his death stating that he was "concentrated" on him and was blasting him with a "fatal" web of energy. 
He's also trying to manipulate Starkiller throughout. 


"A hail of shattered transparisteel and debris drove the Emperor back from Kota, breaking his concentration and freeing the Jedi Master from the fatal web of energy." - The Force Unleashed. 

...You did read where I said "torture him to death", right?


2. What Galen says is that it's painful enough that he'd want to be unconscious so that he's not undergoing the experience anymore.
He's saying that the pain of it is enough that he has to actually keep his mind fixed on Sidious so he doesn't fall unconscious. 



That's why the text highlights that Galen is struggling not to surrender to unconsciousness when Sidious increases the power of the lightning. This is at the same point that Sidious himself has grown "desperate." 

Are you ever not going to put a spin on something blatantly spelled out in the text? Sidious zaps him, Starkiller remains fixed on his suicide attack, he reaches Sheev, Sheev zaps him more, SK is forced to enter Oneness as he feels himself about to black out and sees Kota and the senators being attacked. Nothing about that remotely suggests Sheev was desperate.


3. Galen crossing the distance between himself and Sidious and his Force lock lasts for as long as it takes Vader to arrive with reinforcements. 

...No, it took about the time it took for reinforcements to arrive (who might have already been on their way) and Vader to stand up. 



1. Why would "putting everything he had into reaching Sidious" be the equivalent of a "suicide attack?"  

Silly me, I forgot that when Galen "needed to see this through. He had to", his plan was to hug Sheev to death.


2. The distance between Sidious and Galen is depicted as more than "a few feet away" in the comic.  

You mean where their fingers are a few metres apart?

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Rco11710
This is the panel right after Galen tells Kota to run.


3. Where does the text suggest Galen is "on the brink of death." At most it only states he was struggling to remain conscious.

Unconsciousness, or death. It really doesn't matter in this situation.


"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed. 

You're welcome. 

So...your basis for Sidious being "desperate" and thus was "fuelling his lightning" is because he's in pain. 



Just to let you know, you yourself posted the line when you quoted the passage detailing Galen and Sidious's force lock. It's alright. While this is embarrassing for you, it tends to happen to people who don't actually read the passages they're quoting. 

I read it, I just appreciate context. 


Well, considering Force user's like Arcann and Lana use the Force on Nathema, you're either asserting that Chained Vaylin is less powerful than those characters or you're leaving out relevant context, that being that Nathema simply makes it harder to focus and draw on the Force and that a character like Vaylin who is already mentally unstable is going to have more trouble then most utilizing the Force under these circumstances. 

Or you just can't be asked to do basic research.

"My power is limited here, but I will do what I can to shield you and your compatriots from the worst effects of the void."


Seriously, that's mentioned in the first 5 minutes of any video playthrough, and you couldn't even be bothered to find that? 



Sounds a lot like how Meetra was affected by Nathema in the Revan novel.

"She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence." - Revan. 


Seems to be less a case of "madness" and more a feeling that Force user's tend to have on the planet because as a consequence of the ritual. 

Wrong.


Even the Force could not survive. The void that remained after the ritual brought pain and suffering to any Force-sensitive beings that approached.
The name Medriaas was purged from the galactic record and the barren planet became known as Nathema. Centuries later, Valkorion banished his daughter Vaylin to the blighted world, knowing the void would limit her growing power and make her more susceptible to the mental conditioning he could use to control her... if it didn't drive her mad.


- Jedipedia codex entry: Nathema. 

-


The effects will be stronger on the surface. The absence of the Force could drive us mad.
- Lana Beniko.



Ah, you attempted to head that one off at the pass, didn't you? I'll commend you for thinking ahead



I genuinely have no idea what you're on about with this.


but, again, I'll note that the descriptions of Lana and Meetra's state seem to be suggesting that the planet generally makes Force user's feel that way as opposed to this being them succumbing to "madness." 

Contradicted by the in-game codex, Lana herself, Valkorion, the Outlander, and numerous other sources.



"The instant the Ebon Hawk dropped out of hyperspace near Nathema, Revan was overwhelmed by a barrage of mental images. Everything came crashing in on him, the memories he was so desperate to regain fusing with a trauma he had tried so hard to repress. Caught between the two, he cried out and clutched his head in his hands. For several seconds he didn’t move, his conscious will battling with his runaway subconscious.


-


T3 was at his side, beeping with concern. Revan blinked away the last of his fugue state and glanced down at the Hawk’s sensors to see what had the little droid so upset. The sensors had picked up another vessel in the system. It was difficult to draw on the Force so close to the ravaged world, and he struggled to get some sense of the passengers on the other ship. By the time his groggy mind registered the threat they posed, it was too late." - Revan.
The quote mentions Revan's proximity to the world being something that makes it more difficult to draw on the Force but it notes that he's already in a "fugue" state as a result of his subconscious memories bubbling to the surface and nearly overwhelming him.


The quote you just specified literally says he shook off the last of that state. The bit about registering Nyriss and Scourge was as a result of his inability to draw upon the Force. 



So while his proximity to the planet would have been a factor in slowing his reactions and dulling his sense, we know it wasn't the sole contributor. Considering the text only mentions it briefly and gives a whole paragraph to describe Revan's mental state giving him a bout of disassociation and clouding his mind, well, it's indicative that it's the more relevant factor of the two imo. 

No, it gives that more attention because it just spent 6-8 pages talking about the effects of Nathema from Scourge and Nyriss' perspectives. It'd make for a boring narrative to revisit this so soon. Also, Revan expresses fear and dread at returning to Nathema:


But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force.


Apprentice Scourge's first impression of Nathema*

Pointless correction.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Valkorion could barely manifest himself on the planet. 

[[snip]]

-

Even in orbit, Valkorion was struggling to manifest itself (the same region Unchained Vaylin overloaded those generators): 

[[snip]]


Valkorion is a being made up solely of Force energy at this point, perhaps it's not that Nathema has affected him to a greater degree than the likes of Lana Beniko but the fact that the world he's appearing on seemingly takes in surrounding Force energy in an attempt to fill the void.

"She could feel the Void pressing in on her from all sides. At the same time it was pulling on her, trying to rip away the very essence of her existence. Nature abhors a vacuum; the emptiness was trying to fill itself with her energy." - Revan. 

Just a thought... 

It isn't affecting him to a greater degree, though, considering that he could still call upon the Force, and it wouldn't really make sense for it to considering that he drained it in the first place. Either way, it affected him to pretty much the same extent as the others, only in a different way. If anything, he should be more resistant to it because of his knowledge, experience and him being responsible for it in the first place.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
So, we have Nathema being capable of completely stripping an Arcann  level+ Force user, leaving Scourge and Revan nearly powerless just by being close to the planet (not even in its orbit), and Valkorion barely being able to manifest himself even when just in the planet's orbit. 

- You have a being who is made up purely of Force energy struggling to maintain his form on a planet that devours Force energy.

Same effect as chained Vaylin: she can't use the Force on the planet, he can't properly manifest on the planet. 


- You have a mentally unstable Force user struggling to use the Force on a planet that makes it harder to do so. 

You mean Scourge? Because he wasn't mentally unstable.


- You have Revan's abilities being hindered to an unknown degree
Again, not true. The only thing his "groggy mind" hindered was his tactical abilities. 





and Meetra and Scourge not being able to use the Force on Nathema at a point when Nathema was far more potent. 

Proof Nathema was far more potent than in KOTET?



This is arguably less impressive than if she'd done it on planet for the simple fact that her ability to draw on the Force would no longer have been as hindered to the degree it would be if she was on the planet's surface.

First, it really isn't. Second, you're completely missing the point. The void left chained Vaylin (who's canonically >>>>> her chained self) completely powerless, and has not been shown to be limited in its effects by a being's power level. 



No, it does not. RR and Scourge were on Nathema at a time when the nexus was far more potent
Source for it being far more potent.


and Valkorion's state at the time makes maintaining a consistent form on Nathema the equivalent of trying to build a sand castle on the beach when the waves are coming in.


Once again, you've completely missed the point. The void:

Stopped Valkorion manifesting. 
Stopped chained Vaylin using the Force.
Nearly drove Lana mad even with Valkorion's protection.
Nearly sent Meetra mad in less than five minutes.
Left Scourge powerless.
Made using the Force incredibly difficult for Revan even when just approaching the planet.

Despite the sheer potency of this void, Vaylin was powerful enough to summon the Force with enough power and precision to overload generators on a planet where the Force itself can't survive. The sheer power this would take is immense.


1. Starkiller accomplished the feat casually. 

He's literally moving it to the left for several seconds before chucking it while the player repeatedly presses the circle/B button. 

2. That's not even close to his best feat.
It's irrelevant as a feat considering it only happens in the Xbox/PS3 game.


3. Overloading generators wouldn't even be better than your version of that feat.


Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Giphy
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on November 24th 2019, 8:00 pm
Holy shit. You legitimately just lied in your post.

Did you really just try to pass off the idea that Galen and Sidious's Force lock started here:

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Rco11710

 When Galen's shown to intercept the path of the lightning here:
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 ZQgZfpR

You know how I know you lied rather than just being ignorant? Because to get the screenshot you did, you had to actively seek out the comic, scroll past the scan I just posted and crop out the surrounding pages in order to hide the surrounding context.

You're as bad as Lady Kuntlax.


Last edited by Syndiciate on November 24th 2019, 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on November 24th 2019, 8:11 pm
All the other children's spankings are on hold till I can beat the demon out of this child. I've never been so disappointed.
LadyKulvax
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 8:14 pm
Stop referring to me when you know I'd immolate you in any form of actual debate, child.
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on November 24th 2019, 8:19 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Stop referring to me when you know I'd immolate you in any form of actual debate, child.

It thinks people have cared about anything its had to say since 2014. That's adorable.
DarthAnt66
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 24th 2019, 8:27 pm
Let's stay on topic.
BreakofDawn
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on November 24th 2019, 8:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Syndiciate wrote:Holy shit. You legitimately just lied in your post.

Did you really just try to pass off the idea that Galen and Sidious's Force lock started here:

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Rco11710

 When Galen's shown to intercept the path of the lightning here:
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 ZQgZfpR

You know how I know you lied rather than just being ignorant? Because to get the screenshot you did, you had to actively seek out the comic, scroll past the scan I just posted and crop out the surrounding pages in order to hide the surrounding context.

You're as bad as Lady Kuntlax.
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Rco11711

Might want to delete that post. The novel also supports mine considering that Galen was still within lightsaber striking distance of Sidious.

Also, quit with the name calling with AP. Not interested in discussing this with you if you're going to act like a child.
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on November 24th 2019, 8:45 pm
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Jnl23L5

Look, I'm going to lay this out as simply as I can because I feel there's a chance you legitimately don't understand.

The top half is the preceding page wherein Galen intercepts Sidious's lightning. In the shot you can see that Galen and Rahm are a fair distance away from Sidious. 

The bottom half of the page is the depiction of Galen crossing the distance between himself and Sidious while telling Rahm and the rebels to run. 

Do you understand?

@BreakofDawn wrote:

Also, quit with the name calling with AP. Not interested in discussing this with you if you're going to act like a child.

That'd be convenient for you, wouldn't it?
BreakofDawn
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Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Empty Re: Starkiller vs. Vaylin

on November 25th 2019, 12:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Imgonl10

No, the panel you posted was from one angle that distorts the distance. Immediately after, it shows SK screaming in pain as he's just jumped in the way of the lightning. 


That'd be convenient for you, wouldn't it?

Yes, I'm so in awe of your debating skills that I can't bring myself to debunk anymore of your points. That must be it.
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on November 25th 2019, 12:50 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 Imgonl10

No, the panel you posted was from one angle that distorts the distance. Immediately after, it shows SK screaming in pain as he's just jumped in the way of the lightning. 


That'd be convenient for you, wouldn't it?

Yes, I'm so in awe of your debating skills that I can't bring myself to debunk anymore of your points. That must be it.

Distorts the distance? How? It literally shows how far apart they are. On what basis are you claiming that the distance shown to exist between them in the official panel is inaccurate? Because Starkiller groaned out in pain in the next panel? 

Why would we assume that the official canon depiction is inaccurate as opposed to Galen simply not groaning out in pain until that moment? Or, better yet, that the comic simply didn't show Galen crossing the distance between himself and Sidious and instead only showed the relevant action ( I.E. Galen intercepting the lightning and then skipping to the point where he latched onto Sidious ). You know, like pretty much like every comic to have ever existed does constantly. 

This is backed up by the novel as well considering Galen doesn't say anything to Rahm until he's about to latch onto Sidious.

While I'm flattered, that's no excuse to not back up your claims.
BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 3:27 pm

Distorts the distance? How? It literally shows how far apart they are. On what basis are you claiming that the distance shown to exist between them in the official panel is inaccurate? Because Starkiller groaned out in pain in the next panel? 

No, because SK was still within striking distance per every single depiction. 


Why would we assume that the official canon depiction

Proof that the comic > the novel? 




is inaccurate as opposed to Galen simply not groaning out in pain until that moment? 

Cool, so despite the novel claiming the pain was incredible and enough to make him want to black out the moment it touched him, you don't believe it possible that Galen would have cried out in pain the moment it touched him (despite the novel clearly showing that it was excruciatingly painful).



Or, better yet, that the comic simply didn't show Galen crossing the distance between himself and Sidious



Unlikely, considering that there is clearly no time lapse between Galen jumping in the way of the lightning and his crying out in pain (note both Sidious' pose and Kota's proximity to the two).


and instead only showed the relevant action ( I.E. Galen intercepting the lightning and then skipping to the point where he latched onto Sidious ). You know, like pretty much like every comic to have ever existed does constantly. 

Because the comic clearly put great emphasis on Galen jumping in the way, just as the novel did. It paying close attention to that is consistent with every depiction of the struggle. Games, novel, whatever, they all show that moment of Galen jumping in the way. The comic clearly treats it as there being no time gap. You're grasping at straws to make Galen seem more impressive than he is.
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on November 25th 2019, 4:19 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
No, because SK was still within striking distance per every single depiction.

Obviously not in the comic's depiction. If you're claiming he was in the novel, I'd love to see some sort of evidence for that. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Proof that the comic > the novel? 

Proof that the novel contradicts the comic's depiction? 

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Cool, so despite the novel claiming the pain was incredible and enough to make him want to black out the moment it touched him, you don't believe it possible that Galen would have cried out in pain the moment it touched him (despite the novel clearly showing that it was excruciatingly painful).

Of course I believe it's possible. What I don't believe is that we should assume that a canonical depiction should be rendered non-canon because he's not shown yelling out in pain until AFTER he initially catches the lightning. That would be forcing canon to comply to YOUR OWN head canon.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Unlikely, considering that there is clearly no time lapse between Galen jumping in the way of the lightning and his crying out in pain (note both Sidious' pose and Kota's proximity to the two).

What are you talking about? There clearly is a time lapse due to the fact that there is a notable distance between Galen and Sidious with Galen then closing said distance. The simple fact that in the scan you see the Rebels running towards the Rogue Shadow when Galen is about to reach Sidious where before they were standing in the area telling Starkiller to help Kota means that time has passed. The scan only support my viewpoint showing Rahm standing in the same position watching the fight before the next shot zooms back in on Galen and Sidious with Rahm and the Rebels still in the same position, just showing that they're far away. 

Starkiller vs. Vaylin  - Page 2 IpmFaQZ

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Because the comic clearly put great emphasis on Galen jumping in the way, just as the novel did. It paying close attention to that is consistent with every depiction of the struggle. Games, novel, whatever, they all show that moment of Galen jumping in the way. The comic clearly treats it as there being no time gap. You're grasping at straws to make Galen seem more impressive than he is.

Please explain to me how Galen jumping in front of the lightning when there is a notable distance between himself and Sidious and then the comic cutting to Galen being close to Sidious with Rahm now standing far away still watching the fight from same position is indicative that no time has passed.
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