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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 15:47
1. ok man. the flaw in ur argument comes from the fact that vader already had his mixed saber style all the way back in 19 BBY, but imma assume u didnt know about that. 

2. No, only his foot and striking speed were faster, otherwise he wouldve blitzed vader. humiliating a light sider vader, while being amped by the sheev nexus doesnt make him stronger than vader at his best whatsoever. it makes luke=> vader with about 3 or 4 disadvantages. u wanna use speed to claim a disparity in power? really? man, gotta say then, yoda doubling his speed and semi blitzing sheev should easily make him> sheev then.

3. i dont think it matters, since he only beats vader after he does start to fight seriously, while using the dark side, while going for the kill. and like i said many times over, vader wasnt trying to kill him either. he literally wanted to fight luke to save him sheev. 

4. that contradicts the reason for the fight itself. he fought luke to save him- if vader lost, he wouldve been killed by sheev, or just plain old replaced, leaving luke helpless against sheev. sheev couldve killed him, took his body, turned him into another mini vader, drained him for years and years, etc. vader also knew that if he had luke on his side, he couldve beaten sheev. its also ridiculous that 'pride man' vader wouldve turned to light side after he just saw his son trying to kill him, the same son who broke his leg, and cut his hand off. Luke begging for help wouldnt have made a difference either, considering the fact that vader almost killed luke many times before. what difference would it have made now? the same vader who cut his hand off, and who let him fall in ESB, btw. and his hate for what? luke? he didnt hate luke. his hate for sheev? now that makes more sense. so even if vader WAS angered, he wasnt using it against luke anyhow.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 15:47
2. Yes, Luke was faster. His reflexes were fast enough that it surprised, intimidated, and humiliated Vader, per the RotJ novel. This implies a disparity in power, implying Luke>Vader.

...No, it implies that his skills as a swordsman implied massively. Ask any swordsman, and one of the key elements of swordsmanship is learning to anticipate your opponent's moves and countering, as well as honing your reflexes. This is a classic case of this. Sure, the Force plays a key part, but it's primarily due to improvements in technique and skill.


3. What about "I will not fight you" says Luke was trying to kill Vader? Yeah, Luke tapped into his anger, but at both stages of the duel when Luke had Vader on the ground, he stopped himself.

The point I think Lorenzo is making is that he had to tap heavily into the dark side to get Vader to that stage.


4. Vader is stated in the novel to be fueled by his anger and hate during the fight. Hence, using the dark side. It wasn't until Luke was begging Vader for help that Vader "let go of his hate," and returned to the light side.

Planning to do an analysis of Vader's mindset in the future, possibly in a blog. Needless to say, he was certainly conflicted. Not to mention that whenever suit Vader becomes enraged he screws up. Massively.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 15:50; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 15:49
...did... did i just defended???? holy shit, i gotta call my mom. she needs to see this. lemme screenshot this fucker real quick.
BreakofDawn
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 15:50
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:...did... did i just defended???? holy shit, i gotta call my mom. she needs to see this. lemme screenshot this fucker real quick.
Lol.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 16:54
All I know is that Galen dies.
Syndiciate
Syndiciate

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 19:14
I'll be addressing some of these arguments once my debate with Meatpants ends if the twins haven't gotten to them by then.
The Apprentice
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 19:44
DC can handle this, it's his debate, and I have enough on my plate as is.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 19:50
Word Salad wrote:DC can handle this, it's his debate, and I have enough on my plate as is.
Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Giphy
The Apprentice
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 20:11
Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 3948126588
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 20:41
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1. ok man. the flaw in ur argument comes from the fact that vader already had his mixed saber style all the way back in 19 BBY, but imma assume u didnt know about that. 

2. No, only his foot and striking speed were faster, otherwise he wouldve blitzed vader. humiliating a light sider vader, while being amped by the sheev nexus doesnt make him stronger than vader at his best whatsoever. it makes luke=> vader with about 3 or 4 disadvantages. u wanna use speed to claim a disparity in power? really? man, gotta say then, yoda doubling his speed and semi blitzing sheev should easily make him> sheev then.

3. i dont think it matters, since he only beats vader after he does start to fight seriously, while using the dark side, while going for the kill. and like i said many times over, vader wasnt trying to kill him either. he literally wanted to fight luke to save him sheev. 

4. that contradicts the reason for the fight itself. he fought luke to save him- if vader lost, he wouldve been killed by sheev, or just plain old replaced, leaving luke helpless against sheev. sheev couldve killed him, took his body, turned him into another mini vader, drained him for years and years, etc. vader also knew that if he had luke on his side, he couldve beaten sheev. its also ridiculous that 'pride man' vader wouldve turned to light side after he just saw his son trying to kill him, the same son who broke his leg, and cut his hand off. Luke begging for help wouldnt have made a difference either, considering the fact that vader almost killed luke many times before. what difference would it have made now? the same vader who cut his hand off, and who let him fall in ESB, btw. and his hate for what? luke? he didnt hate luke. his hate for sheev? now that makes more sense. so even if vader WAS angered, he wasnt using it against luke anyhow.

1. It doesn't matter that Vader had his hybrid style in 19BBY. He developed it after being placed in the suit. Ben only ever faced him once after he was in the suit, and that was in the Death Star, when Ben died. Therefore, there is no way Ben could have developed a custom style to deal with suited Vader's particular fighting style like you initially claimed. You've posted no actual evidence to support that initial claim, and every source I've seen states Luke used Form V against Vader, mirroring his father's style. So no, Luke did not have a style advantage.

2.a. The novel explicitly calls out Luke's reaction speed as being what gave him an edge over Vader. Jedi and Sith use the Force for heightened reaction speed. So if Luke's greater reaction time is explicitly called out as what gave him an edge against Vader (not movement speed), this is indicative of Luke being >= RotJ Vader in the Force. On top of that, there's at least one source someone already posted that directly states the two are equals in the Force.

2.b. Regarding Yoda v. Sidious, Yoda supposedly doubled his movement speed to disarm Palpatine. That's irrelevant, however, since we see a direct contest of the Force between the two, and they are demonstrably equal. I do personally have Yoda > Sheev as a duelist, though. 

3. Luke has Vader dead to rights in the first 8 seconds of the on-screen duel. That's before Vader threatened Leia, mind you. So Luke was only drawing on his anger, but he wasn't in a dark side-fueled frenzy like he was at the end. Considering the only times we see Luke willingly participating in the duel are when he's drawing on anger, it's impossible to quantify a non-angry RotJ Luke. It's better to use his early-fight performance (when multiple sources claim the two were equals) as his baseline.

Alternatively, you could look at the middle of the duel, where Luke was actively avoiding drawing on his aggression. Luke is still able to match Vader in reaction time and raw strength (I'm at work, so I don't have my novels with me to pull up direct quotes). But we see him maintaining multiple blade locks against Vader, and in the last, Luke overpowers Vader in the bind, giving Luke an opportunity to leap away. So non-dark side Luke is >= RotJ Vader in terms of physical augmentation.

4. Vader didn't fight Luke to save him. He fought Luke to turn him. Luke was his son, yes, but more importantly, Luke was a tool that could finally help him overthrow the Emperor. There's a reason Vader didn't let Luke kill the Emperor at the start of the duel. Because if he did, Luke wouldn't have fully given in to the dark side, and wouldn't join him as an apprentice. 

The novel explicitly tells us that Vader is drawing on his anger during the duel. He was conflicted about killing his own son, sure, but he was still committed to the dark side. He does not let go of his hatred until Luke is begging for his help. A moment that mirrored Anakin's original fall, and reminded Anakin of the worst mistake he'd ever made. A person he cared for, the only person who could help him avoid a dark fate, about to be killed by a Master he resented and only begrudgingly followed. Luke begging his father for help is absolutely what mattered here, and it's what finally brought Anakin back from the depths of Vader's psyche. 

As for your question about where Vader's hate comes from, it has always been hatred for himself. His self-loathing is what fueled his power for decades. It's been stated in more than one source. The dark side is fueled by strong negative emotions, and Vader's hatred for himself over all the bad choices he'd made was extremely potent. He had to forgive himself in order to free himself from the dark side. And that's something he accomplished by saving his son in a mirror of the same encounter where he fell to the dark side in the first place. That's how he "let go of his hate." Until that point, Vader was a dark sider. And explicitly said to be more powerful than ever in RotJ, including during the duel, where he demonstrated greater "deadly invincibility" than ever before.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on Fri 22 Nov 2019 - 23:15
hey sorry lol

1. 19 BBY= ROTS time frame, and im sorry to say, but he did not develop a whole new style, THE PERFECT STYLE, in like, 3 months, while he rehab'd at the same time. he had to have had it beforehand. Dont worry, cuz i need to find that statement for something else too, not just this thread. I could also say that Luke modified his dad's form to fit his own style, and that he trained to fight vader in specific, which supports my sourceless claim of the anti vader style.

2. no, speed is not a testament to power at all lol idk where u got that from, but its wrong. star wars is all about individuality, each person has their own thing and quirk. one quote is nice, but i can bring in two of Luke saying the opposite, and one from lucas himself saying that vader> luke. this should be obvious by now tbh. PS i do agree that yoda is the better duelist tho, ill say that much

3. dead to rights in the first 8 seconds, and completely overpowered by base, and yet, one handed vader was tanking dark side luke's full powered blows, many times over- now thats interesting aint it? and btw, luke was, iirc, angry most of the fight. i dont think, but i could be wrong, that at no point in time did luke fight vader without being angry. and last but not least, i do not disagree with angry luke= mentally unstable vader, because that much is obvious. we see it happen. i cant just ignore that. the statements saying they were equals do not mean that full powered vader= ROTJ luke at all. it means that in that fight, vader= ROTJ luke. its as simple as it gets. vader may have been at his best in ROTJ, but he was not even close to his best in their final fight. and yet again, vader blocked luke's strike right at the start of the duel, one handed, and easily, didnt he? so no, luke is not stronger than vader, whatsoever. the only time he even comes close to overpowering vader is when he is at his angriest ever, while getting a nexus amp from sheev. 

4... I already said that vader fought luke to turn him. it was the best option after all. two birds with one stone- he could not only have killed sheev with luke's help, but he could also have had his son back, all in one go. when i say "vader fought luke to save luke" i meant in the long run. We literally know that he wouldve been killed or have been brainwashed or have been possessed if vader failed, so yes, he did fight luke to save luke, no matter how u look at it. he had to win, or all that he worked for wouldve been over. i dont i think i need to mention the fact that had vader not protected palpatine, he mightve killed both him and luke, do i? or maybe just vader for so blatantly betraying him, while he tortured and mind fucked luke.

now this is funny- the anger u mentioned isnt even actual anger at someone else, but self anger? THAT is the anger u were talking about? vader didnt use that anger to power himself, he uses a shitton of other stuff. he was just angry at himself, period lol we hear him speak about the damn armor, the damn suit, the damn pain, the damn sleep, the damn sheev, the damn jedi, the damn obi wan, the damn everything, and how he draws on alllll that shit to gain power greater than ever, etc, but now u wanna tell me that what made vader into a dark sider in that fight was his self anger? just no lol and even IF that is the case, that is just one of many things, which makes his anger minimal, compared to his usual anger that made him kill anybody on sight, whole squadrons of storm troopers, the anger that made him kill his wife, etc. not even close to that anger. plus, since when does semi- self pity give dark siders power in the first place?? i have never heard of that. for one, we have bane, who hated himself for killing his dad, even though he hated him; he also hated fohargh, whom he also killed, but his own self hate didnt give him power at all; on the contrary, it made him weak as shit lol self hate creates an unstable mind, and a stable mind is literally everything a force user needs to control the force, and to function well in combat. we hear about this unstable mindset from many sources to have been vader's mindset, and that part of his powers weakening were mostly due to the mental effects his fight on mustafar had on him. hell, seeing obi wan again made him have fear, hesitation, and shit he had never had before. fighting his own son, who temped him to the light side the whole time, 100% had an effect on his mind during those 4 or so years after he found out who luke was. hell, if it didnt, there wouldve been no reason for him to give his life for his child in the end. no way vader suddenly created a conscious cuz luke said "dad, sheev is bullying me again"
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