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CuckedCurry
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 5:26 pm
Yeah Vader’s skill and power can either be amplified or hampered by his rage. You get his Anakin-style rage, which amplified his ability, as you see in Coruscant Knights 2. Or you get his Vader rage, which is rooted in self pity and failure, as demonstrated in his fight with post prime Ferus Olin
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 5:33 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Syndiciate:

I just said that...

Honestly, didn't even read anything below that post. Looking over your own response though I give you props for valid argumentation.
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 5:42 pm
Thanks.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 5:48 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Luke was an equal to a lightsider vader, while using the dark side. He also had the sheev Nexus amping him, which made Vader weaker. Not to mention Vader was mentally unstable, and that Luke only beat him after he tried to kill Vader.

Not trying to be a dick but every claim you made here is not just wrong but the direct opposite of reality.
...u gonna counter it fully, or like, is there more to this comment coming later? Now, even if one of them is right, my point is still valid nonetheless. Him being equal to Vader doesn't disprove anything that I said. Vader was trying to beat Luke in that fight, but he was far from his best
DC77 (Reborn)
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on November 21st 2019, 5:52 pm
There's a quote that literally separates all emotional context that may have been present from their lightsaber and force prowess, which are labelled as equal without context.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 6:05 pm
U do know that there are more than 1 quote that says the opposite to that, right?
DC77 (Reborn)
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 6:12 pm
Post a single quote that says that Vader>Luke as of ROTJ and I'll counter it with 5 that disagree. Post a quote that says Vader was hindered I'll do the same. Go on.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 6:16 pm
U can do whatever u want, there is a quote by Lucas himself that Vader is stronger than Luke lol I posted it before, and y'all did a shit job at debunking it iirc
DC77 (Reborn)
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 6:22 pm
Given the quote posted was clearly not referencing power, and we have multiple G-Canon sources saying Luke is =>Vader I think we can put your notion to rest.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 6:38 pm
Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is. 


He is talking about children and how they view power, so no armies or political rankings come into play here.. He says that some kids will attracted to Luke cuz he is the good guy (clear and obvious child-like trait, which i witnessed while getting a hair cut three days ago when my dad had an argument with a little kid about why he liked venom so much even though venom is the bad guy). He also says that Vader being stronger than Luke is something that all know, which is representing something obvious.


Now, u can get ur quotes that say that vader wasnt mentally unstable, and that he wasnt a light sider, but at the end of the day, they go against the point of that fight and the plot itself- Luke fought and didnt kill Vader cuz he knew Anakin was still there, something that Vader had been experiencing more and more after he learned that Luke was his son. Hell, u saying that Vader wasnt a light sider contradicts Vader's reason for wanting to beat Luke in the first place- if he lost, Luke wouldve been at sheev's mercy, and a dead Vader couldve done nothing about it. He knew that he couldve freed himself from sheev by killing him, and he knew that Luke could help him do it too. He also knew that if Luke abused his shit, sheev couldve killed him, which is another reason for Vader to want to beat him, as to save Luke from getting killed, which he does, in case u didnt know. So yes, Vader was in fact a light sider in that fight, and any quotes that say otherwise, are fucking stupid and go against the plot and the fight's main point.
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:22 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:Yeah Vader’s skill and power can either be amplified or hampered by his rage. You get his Anakin-style rage, which amplified his ability, as you see in Coruscant Knights 2. Or you get his Vader rage, which is rooted in self pity and failure, as demonstrated in his fight with post prime Ferus Olin
Suit Vader is almost always hindered whenever he becomes enraged, mainly because he seeks to dominate his opponents with his strength when he does so and forgets that he needs the discipline and restraint he now possesses to compensate for his lack of speed/agility and overall power as compared to KFV or MFV.

As for ROTJ Luke vs Vader, are there quotes from sources other than blurbs putting them as equals? We have sources saying ROTJ Luke > ESB Luke (which is obvious) and his growth frightening Vader, but few (if any) pegging them as equals in Luke's base state. Not to mention the whole idea of the fight was Luke defeating Vader and Sidious through compassion, not overwhelming power. Enraged Luke was outmanoeuvring Vader and dominating him in sabers, but enraged Luke is virtually impossible to quantify.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:27 pm
he actually had an anti vader style too. i gotta find the source for that tho.
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:29 pm
That bit's not true. Luke was predominately a form V practitioner, same as Anakin/Vader. He's just faster, more agile, and ultimately had a stronger motivator than Vader (who was already conflicted) to win.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:38 pm
no, its true alright. he learned a style made by obi wan to fight against vader's style. i remember this guy posted this in CV a years ago, but i think he deleted it or something after some time. i went looking for it and it yeeted out of fucking life lol
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:39 pm
You mean Soresu?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:42 pm
no lol i know the 7 forms, and their names, but the one he made was specific lol and luke didnt learn form 5 directly i think. im pretty sure he copied vader, which was a form 5 mega variant. well, same thing in the end i suppose lol
Underachiever599
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:43 pm
@DC77 (Reborn):
I see where your arguments are coming from, but there’s a few notable omissions on your part from the passages you posted. There’s a broader context that you seem to have deliberately danced around in the Death Star duel. Similarly, there’s a lot of important details you seem to be ignoring in the TFU II encounter.


First, I’d like to address the duel aboard the Death Star in TFU.


“You are weak,” the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision.
Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent’s defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master’s defenses, testing them to their limits.
“You thought I was dead,” he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.
They fought back and forth across the observation dome.
“I understand you now,” he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. (1) “You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?”
The intensity of Darth Vader’s attack redoubled. “I have no father.”
The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader’s misses had been horribly near, (3) but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.(1)


(1.) Yes, this first attempt at manipulating Vader backfired on Galen. The secret apprentice had been trying to, and I quote “goad his former Master into breaking his concentration.” This failed the first time around.


And the apprentice understood.
A better way to kill…
Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.  
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. (3)
“I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped (3). “That’s something I will teach you now.”
“You can teach me nothing.” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight. (3)
He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.  
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.
“I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. “You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn’t your idea. It was the Emperor’s, and it’s what he’s already done to you.” A strip of Darth Vader’s cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. “You are his creature just as I was yours—but you’ve never had the strength to rebel. That’s why I pity you.(2) I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I’ll make sure you don’t, either.”
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
“I will kill you,” he said, “to set you free.”
The lightsabers flashed again—and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.
For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator.
Then the Dark Lord laughed.
It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse. (2)


(2.) There’s little in the novel that implies Galen going from hating Vader to pitying him makes Galen more powerful. Only one line says this realization gave Galen “a new strength of his own.” Strength in this context doesn’t necessarily mean actual raw power. Strength of will, for example, would be just as valid an interpretation in this context. This interpretation is even backed up in a later quote in the same fight.


Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone.
 


Vader no longer has “power over” Galen Marek because Marek found “a new strength of his own.” He liberated himself of his connection to Vader. He doesn’t need to fight the way Vader taught him (with hatred). He’s found a better way.  


On top of that, we can clearly see Galen’s speech disrupts Vader, with the Dark Lord letting out a laugh that is an “awful sound,” with “a decade and a half of torture and abuse” in it. How often do we actually hear Vader laugh throughout all of Star Wars? I’m pretty sure Batman, king of overly-serious characters, laughs more often. The only other time I recall Vader laughing is in the Coruscant Nights trilogy, when Typho confesses to having been in love with Padme.  


Clearly, this indicates Galen Marek’s speech unbalanced Vader, quite obviously “breaking his concentration,” which was Marek’s goal with the former attempt at goading. Only after this point does Galen begin to “stomp.” With no definitive proof that Galen grew in power or ability after his realization, and with definitive proof that Galen’s speech did have a meaningful impact on Vader (drawing forth awful laughter laced with a decade and a half of torture and abuse), I think we can attribute his stomp to Vader’s broken concentration, rather than a huge improvement in performance on Galen’s part.  


(3.) With that in mind, we cannot “render the fight up until this point irrelevant,” Before this big speech, Galen and Vader were evenly matched, at best, with some indication pointing to Galen being on the losing end (Vader managing to scorch flesh with a pair of “horribly near” misses, Galen needing to catch his breath, clearly gasping, Vader managing to land a Force Choke even after Galen’s realization).


From my point of view, TFU Vader is not normally within stomping range of Galen, without this specific context. The two are, at best, equals in my opinion, with Vader possibly holding a slight edge.
Underachiever599
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 21st 2019, 9:44 pm
@DC77 (Reborn):
I’m going to spend far less time worried about TFU II (again, Galen and Starkiller should be considered separate, in my eyes. Starkiller seems to have more actualized power than Galen, from what I’ve seen, given that he pretty much fully recalled all of Galen’s knowledge and power, and added to it over the course of the novel.)


Darth Vader was playing a very obvious game now.


“Your training made me strong enough to escape you,” he said, “not obey you.”
“Yet here you are.” Darth Vader’s words fell on him like heavy weights. “My most deadly creation.”


Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn’t waste any time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.  
He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood—the blood of his fellow clones—and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn’t tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.


Pretty much the entire first encounter against Vader starting on page 270 is very clearly Vader testing Starkiller. Sure, toward the end of that testing, Starkiller seemingly had Vader beat with a surprise burst of Force Lightning to Vader’s side, but we don’t know whether or not Vader was holding back for the sake of this test. Vader clearly wanted Starkiller to follow him out to where Juno was being held hostage by the stormtroopers, and there’s a quote that at least suggests Vader wasn’t taking the fight seriously (“the move seemed almost casual, disinterested”).  


Red-eyed and hate-filled, they fought each other, too, and the ones who had come before. There were no allies, just a sea of individuals.


Also, Starkiller did not defeat the small army of his clones single-handed. Most of the clones were stated to be unarmed, aside from the very last wave, making them basically fodder to anyone with a lightsaber. It was also a free-for-all, not one Starkiller vs. dozens/hundreds. The last wave of clones was explicitly said to be fighting each other and the others. He may have ended it with a Force wave, but we don’t know how many clones were already dead by that point, or how many remained standing. Sure, Starkiller was more exhausted than he’d ever been by the end of it, but this feat is overblown and can’t be quantified.


As for the final duel between Starkiller and Vader, you’ve already pretty much posted all the relevant bits. Starkiller could only hope for a stalemate between himself and Vader in that battle. However, you did leave out some important pieces of context after Starkiller tried to talk Vader into joining the Rebels.


Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire’s roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.
It needed to end now, or else it might never end.
Blow after blow rained down on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time… but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.
Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.
He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbeatable strength, sending Starkiller’s left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.  
“This is your last chance, Vader said, standing over him with the unwavering tip of his lightsaber pointed directly at Starkiller’s chest.
Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn’t want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn’t want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.
Juno was dead or dying. Starkiller was disarmed and helpless.
Any rational being would at least consider Vader’s offer.
The second thing Starkiller knew was: the best way to beat Darth Vader is to let him think he’s won.


Three pieces of very important context.  


1. The best Starkiller could hope for was a stalemate against Vader. Any move he made outside of actively trying to stalemate would instead put him at a disadvantage. And arguably, he had already lost the duel, as he’d been driven a step from the edge of the platform. Either he focused on doing nothing but stalemating for eternity, or he lost.


2. Vader did not want to kill Starkiller. With this knowledge, he was likely trying to simply subdue Starkiller, rather than kill him over the course of this duel. Much like the duel between Luke and Vader in ESB, Vader was likely holding back this whole time with the intent of disarming Starkiller and taking him alive.


3. The only way Starkiller won here was through deliberately throwing the fight and then doing something completely irrational in that situation. Realistically speaking, Starkiller should have lost here. If it weren’t for Juno’s cheap-shot before the fight began, Starkiller would have.


Yeah, sure, Starkiller was exhausted for the duration of this duel, but that doesn’t mean he’s above Vader when not exhausted. There’s context implying Vader was avoiding trying to kill him, which in turn likely meant Vader was not giving his fight his all. So just because Exhausted Starkiller is equal to, if not a bit below, a restrained Vader, this does not mean Peak Starkiller is above Peak TFU II Vader.  


With that said, I stand by my opinion that TFU Galen~TFU Vader, and we have plenty of quotes telling us that RotJ Vader>SotE Vader>ESB Vader>ANH Vader/TFU II Vader>TFU Vader. And RotJ Luke>=RotJ Vader.
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on November 21st 2019, 9:49 pm
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Not taking a side on this, but just to add that people take the phrase "strength of his own" far too literally. It can just as easily refer to an advantage, such as an advantage that allows you to break your opponent's concentration or disrupt their rhythm, or even just a new mindset (e.g. switching from an offensive approach to a defensive one centred around forcing your opponent to overextend themselves and exploiting that while unbalancing them with taunts). Sean William's novels are full of metaphorical undertones and double meanings. This is just as likely to be one of those as any.

Not to mention that suited Vader becomes incredibly unbalanced and fights like a complete bell end every time he becomes enraged, and makes incredibly stupid mistakes.

As for "throwing him across the room" being used as an example of Vader being ragdolled, it's hardly fair. Vader was focusing on the grip when he was knocked backwards, and being sent across the room is hardly a specific measurement of distance. He might have just slid backwards, for all we know.
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 22nd 2019, 12:22 am
BreakofDawn wrote:As for ROTJ Luke vs Vader, are there quotes from sources other than blurbs putting them as equals?

Plenty. From SF3:

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Lukeva10


Last edited by Meatpants on November 22nd 2019, 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
EmperorCaedus
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 22nd 2019, 12:25 am
Thanks MP
Underachiever599
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Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Empty Re: Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker

on November 22nd 2019, 1:58 am
Also just want to throw in some George Lucas commentary from the 2004 release of the Special Editions:


"In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and that obviously now he's got a big question he's got that he wants answered. And there is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say, 'well, now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone.' In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be half-trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge. 


When I did the end of the last movie, the Empire Strikes Back, one of the issues that came up in terms of my concern about how kids especially would take Darth Vader revealing that he was Luke's father was most of the psychologists would say that kids would deny and say it's not true. So I had to reaffirm, in the child's mind and Luke's mind, that it actually is true, and now he has to deal with it. Going in to this movie, I had to assume that at least half the people didn't believe it. So I had to make it a true thing that happened. Traditionally, in the original long version of the script, this is where actually Obi-Wan Kenobi dies and leaves Luke alone. 


It's always an advantage to the third film in both of these trilogies, these Star Wars trilogies, that it starts out with a young boy, naive youth, that by the time it gets to the third film, he's an experienced warrior, he's matured into his full self, and therefore he's always a much more interesting character. Because he's richer and he's ready to take on his final challenge. It's also the reason the third act of a play is more interesting. Because in the first, you introduce your characters, in the second you get to introduce the problem, and in the third you get to resolve everything. And this being the third part, it has all the resolutions of all the various problems that have been developed in the first films. 
 


This commentary begins around the time Luke visits Yoda's hut in Return of the Jedi. A lot of people pay attention to the first paragraph and use it to argue that Luke never completed his training. However, if you pay attention to context clues, and what George says after the first paragraph, he's clearly referring to ESB when he mentions Luke is half-trained. 


The first paragraph refers to "a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him." This would be the scene in Empire where Luke rushes off to face Vader, but Yoda and Ben stay behind. We know George is referring to Empire Strikes Back here because he then mentions "the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it." Which movie established Vader as Luke's father? ESB. 


The second and third paragraphs are when he begins talking about Return of the Jedi. And what does he have to say about RotJ Luke? He's "experienced," "matured into his full self," and "ready to take on his final challenge." With Luke's final challenge being "confront Darth Vader," as he's repeatedly told by Yoda and Ben in this scene, George makes it pretty clear that RotJ Luke should be either equal to or greater than Vader. 
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on November 22nd 2019, 7:52 am
@Meatpants wrote:
BreakofDawn wrote:As for ROTJ Luke vs Vader, are there quotes from sources other than blurbs putting them as equals?

Plenty. From SF3:

Galen Marek vs ROTJ Luke Skywalker  - Page 2 Lukeva10
Just saying, only one of those pegs them as equals in the Force. The rest just state he's grown stronger and that he has the advantage, most likely in sabers (as the film shows). Even the ROTJ novel quote you posted treats it as Luke's swordsmanship improving massively, not his Force power - while growing stronger - being equal to Vader's. Luke is demonstrably more skilled, not more powerful.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 22nd 2019, 7:57 am
luke isnt more skilled man. i told u that he had a style advantage, was faster, and literally only beat vader when he used the dark side AND tried killing vader, who, as i have already proven, was mentally unstable, and a light sider.
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on November 22nd 2019, 9:29 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:luke isnt more skilled man. i told u that he had a style advantage, was faster, and literally only beat vader when he used the dark side AND tried killing vader, who, as i have already proven, was mentally unstable, and a light sider.
There are a few holes in your argument. 

1. Luke did not have a style advantage. You have done nothing to prove this claim. Obi-Wan couldn't have made an anti-Vader style, because Ben hadn't met Vader since the day he put Vader in the suit. Fightsaber and plenty of sources make it clear Luke mirrors Vader's style, and that's really it.

2. Yes, Luke was faster. His reflexes were fast enough that it surprised, intimidated, and humiliated Vader, per the RotJ novel. This implies a disparity in power, implying Luke>Vader.

3. What about "I will not fight you" says Luke was trying to kill Vader? Yeah, Luke tapped into his anger, but at both stages of the duel when Luke had Vader on the ground, he stopped himself.

4. Vader is stated in the novel to be fueled by his anger and hate during the fight. Hence, using the dark side. It wasn't until Luke was begging Vader for help that Vader "let go of his hate," and returned to the light side.
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