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BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:34 pm
*Facepalm*
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:36 pm
That accolade would mean something if Sidious were in the story. But he's not, and it's irrelevant. Again, if Vader were actually > Sidious he would have already killed Sheev, and Sheev displays his superiority more than once. You don't fear someone you're stronger than and could kill in a heartbeat, lmao.
EmperorCaedus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:24 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:That accolade would mean something if Sidious were in the story. But he's not, and it's irrelevant. Again, if Vader were actually > Sidious he would have already killed Sheev, and Sheev displays his superiority more than once. You don't fear someone you're stronger than and could kill in a heartbeat, lmao.
The reason Vader didn't kill Sidious is because Sidious had a mental grip over Vader, Vader thought he had nothing and did anything to impress his new master. That doesn't change the fact that Vader is more powerful. 

It doesn't matter if he was in the story or not, they are still referring to sith.

And what all of you said was speculation with no form of quotes or citation. So...
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:44 pm
Just wanna point out, Ben's story in From a Certain Point of View shows Vader>>Ben. The story is from Ben's perspective, and he spends the whole fight reeling, struggling to hold his own, and even describes Vader as "too strong" for him. 

We also have a canon "list" which seems to point to Vader being above Sidious as a duelist (though I take that with a truckload of salt). The only evidence to support Vader>Sidious comes from Lords of the Sith, where he has a couple showings that could possibly support that stance (Seeing Palpatine trying to strike someone down and intercepting the attack, arguably outspeeding Sidious. Arguably outperforming Sidious when the two faced the Lyleks side by side). But Sidious still has better feats against high end duelists like Mace, Yoda, and the strike team. Granted, Vader's two high end duels (against Infil'a and Momin) were mired in circumstance, and he was heavily, heavily injured going into both encounters. And the one Council Member we've seen Vader fight, Eeth Koth, was amped by the dark side and stated to be more powerful than he'd been as a Jedi.

Vader's Canon Force feats are among the greatest in Canon. There is still evidence that Sidious is>Vader, though. Palpatine in Thrawn: Alliances has a sense feat that blows Vader's mind. Also, he still has no answer for Force Lightning, which seems to be the thing about Sidious that he fears most in Lords of the Sith. Sure, he can tank it for a time, but it will inevitably kill him. Even if Vader is arguably above Sidious, the best he can hope for in a battle against his master is a draw due to lightning frying his suit.

Sidious should probably take this by a good margin, but Vader is absolutely a tough fight for him.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:47 pm
Simple comparison:

>Vader struggles with Ahsoka, who's sub Rebels Maul.

>Sheev rofl stomps both Savage and TCW Maul.

Guess who's better?
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:37 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Simple comparison:

>Vader struggles with Ahsoka, who's sub Rebels Maul.

>Sheev rofl stomps both Savage and TCW Maul.

Guess who's better?
Flawed comparison.
Rebels Maul>~Ahsoka
Vader>Ahsoka
Ben>>Rebels Maul
Vader>>Ben.
So honestly, Vader should be>>>Ahsoka. He only "struggled" because Ahsoka was his former Padawan, had some familiarity with his fighting style, and was more mobile than him. That said, he was still driving her back the entire, and beat her twice (once through bfr, once where she was only saved by Ezra's intervention). 

Also, we know Sidious struggled against Maul and Savage. Sure, he ultimately beat them, but both Maul and Savage managed to land a hit on Sidious during the battle, and his expressions during the fight make it clear his victory isn't effortless.

Edit: I'd like to reiterate, Sidious wins this fight. It just won't be easy for him.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:23 am
A) Nice, you agree to my POV on Ahsoka V Maul.

B) Never did I indicate Vader wasn't>Ahsoka, but she gave him trouble, which is all that matters.

C) Vader isn't better than Ben by any massive margin.

D) Ben isn't better than Rebels Maul by any massive margin.

E) It was actually Vader who was familiar with Ahsoka's style, he trained her, yet he had to rebuild his from scratch after being cut up.

F) Landing physical strikes isn't an indication of parity, nor is Sheev snarling a couple times, the actual fight itself makes it pretty clear he was dominating the duo harder than Vader was against Ahsoka.

G) Never did I once state that Sheev was massively better than Vader, I'm responding to EC's notion that Vader is better.
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:27 am
The reason Vader didn't kill Sidious is because Sidious had a mental grip over Vader, Vader thought he had nothing and did anything to impress his new master. That doesn't change the fact that Vader is more powerful. 

Rubbish.

"With our combined strength, we could end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." 

Not to mention he struck down the vision of Sidious he had in the finale of the Vader comics without a second thought. 

Sidious also has superior feats, such as sharing parity with a being who did this:

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Fmtrmm10
So essentially, you have one accolade within a closed circuit story where Sidious isn't even featured that apparently > feats, scaling, G-Canon, and basic logic and common sense. Not a strong position.

As for "trying to prove himself":

Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.
-- Lords Of The Sith
Vader believes himself inferior to Sidious in the same year as that data entry.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total
IdrisianGraecus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:28 am
ROTJ Sheev >>>>> ROTJ Luke ~ Vader
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:50 am
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:ROTJ Sheev >>>>> ROTJ Luke ~ Vader
This scaling hurt me more than even a DC77 post.
IdrisianGraecus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:52 am
I mean. It’s true
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:56 am
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:I mean. It’s true
Meh, I'd remove a few ">" but yeah, pretty much. Still...it hurts.
Isv
Isv

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:03 am
Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Vader_10
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:50 am
@BreakofDawn:

This scaling hurt me more than even a DC77 post.

???
EmperorCaedus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
The reason Vader didn't kill Sidious is because Sidious had a mental grip over Vader, Vader thought he had nothing and did anything to impress his new master. That doesn't change the fact that Vader is more powerful. 

Rubbish.

"With our combined strength, we could end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." 

Not to mention he struck down the vision of Sidious he had in the finale of the Vader comics without a second thought. 

Sidious also has superior feats, such as sharing parity with a being who did this:

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Fmtrmm10
So essentially, you have one accolade within a closed circuit story where Sidious isn't even featured that apparently > feats, scaling, G-Canon, and basic logic and common sense. Not a strong position.

As for "trying to prove himself":

Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.
-- Lords Of The Sith
Vader believes himself inferior to Sidious in the same year as that data entry.

A. The ESB quote was after Vader found out Luke was his son. This battle takes place during the events of FJO
B. Using a feat from Yoda to show Sidious has superior feats is just stupid. I don't see the relevance or how it correlates with Sidious. 
C. That quote is G-Canon (the highest tier of canon.) So yes it overrides massive scaling chains, and feats. 
D. G Canon sources don't care about Vader's beliefs. It actually further proves my point that Sidious had a mental grip on Vader, he thought himself as inferior, but he is actually more powerful, and it's just his mentality restraining him from cutting down the Emperor. Obviously this mental barrier was broken down by RotJ, when Vader threw Sidious.


And then, in a moment, something changed. Perhaps he remembered something heard in his youth a long time ago: an ancient prophecy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. Perhaps the vague outlines of someone named Shmi and a Jedi named Qui-Gon struggled to the surface of his consciousness. The most powerful, the most repressed thought of all could have emerged from the darkness: Padm? Ö and her undying love for someone he once knew well. And despite all the terrible, unspeakable things heíd done in his life, he suddenly realized he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill their son. And in that moment, he was no longer Darth Vader. 
He was Anakin Skywalker.

This quote from the RotJ novelization basically says that he overcame his mental block put in place by the emperor. 

The Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:Somehow, despite his severed hand, Vader had managed to lift the Emperor high over his head. With one final burst of his once-venerated strength, Darth Vader hurled the Emperor into the elevator shaft, then collapsed at the shaft's edge. 
 
The following paragraph states despite all of Vader's hindrances, he hurled the Emperor.
IdrisianGraecus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:25 pm
MyGod, hello
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:36 pm

A. The ESB quote was after Vader found out Luke was his son. This battle takes place during the events of FJO

And? He still always intended to usurp Sidious but was never powerful enough to do it by himself.

B. Using a feat from Yoda to show Sidious has superior feats is just stupid. I don't see the relevance or how it correlates with Sidious. 

If two superheroes got in an arm wrestling match and stalemate while going all-out, and one of those characters casually moves around planets, both can logically replicate the planet moving feat.

C. That quote is G-Canon (the highest tier of canon.) So yes it overrides massive scaling chains, and feats. 

...It's a data entry in a game made by a company hired on Lucasfilm's behalf. It's C-canon. G-canon refers to word of god, the films and possibly the scripts.



D. G Canon sources don't care about Vader's beliefs.
It's not G-canon.



It actually further proves my point that Sidious had a mental grip on Vader, he thought himself as inferior, but he is actually more powerful, and it's just his mentality restraining him from cutting down the Emperor.
Considering that he believed himself more powerful than before and yet still believed himself inferior to Sidious, that's a pretty clear indication. Both the films and word of god also confirm Sidious > Vader.


Obviously this mental barrier was broken down by RotJ, when Vader threw Sidious.

And per another version of the novel:


Spoiler:

At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor
from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arras to his torso.
Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last
few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one,
concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he
failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his
weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he
focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to
defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.
 Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling
embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out
in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning
ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord
fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet,
over his cape, into his heart.
 Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge
over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the
wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of
strength, hurled him into the abyss.
DoA
DoA

Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:12 pm
Good thread

I'd say Sheev takes it 12/10 but I can be swayed, for like, 10/10
The Apprentice
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 pm
Why do people think Vader wins this? Because some random quote from a game said so? Sidious being better is supported by the thematic intent of the films, which trumps a quote from a game codex any day. Regardless, I'm pretty sure Canon's policy on quotes is a little different from Legends, it's not the "one quote ends all" policy.
EmperorCaedus
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Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Darth Sidious

on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:40 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:

A. The ESB quote was after Vader found out Luke was his son. This battle takes place during the events of FJO

And? He still always intended to usurp Sidious but was never powerful enough to do it by himself.

B. Using a feat from Yoda to show Sidious has superior feats is just stupid. I don't see the relevance or how it correlates with Sidious. 

If two superheroes got in an arm wrestling match and stalemate while going all-out, and one of those characters casually moves around planets, both can logically replicate the planet moving feat.

C. That quote is G-Canon (the highest tier of canon.) So yes it overrides massive scaling chains, and feats. 

...It's a data entry in a game made by a company hired on Lucasfilm's behalf. It's C-canon. G-canon refers to word of god, the films and possibly the scripts.



D. G Canon sources don't care about Vader's beliefs.
It's not G-canon.



It actually further proves my point that Sidious had a mental grip on Vader, he thought himself as inferior, but he is actually more powerful, and it's just his mentality restraining him from cutting down the Emperor.
Considering that he believed himself more powerful than before and yet still believed himself inferior to Sidious, that's a pretty clear indication. Both the films and word of god also confirm Sidious > Vader.

A. He intended to usurp Sidious only after he found out he had a son, his plan was to turn Luke to the dark side and then usurp Sidious together, Vader never planned on usurping Sidious before hand, which is before FJO.

B. Yes Sidious is beyond Yoda power wise after RotS, but I'm still confused on why you used a Yoda feat instead of a Sidious feat, it's kind've jarring.

C. It is C-Canon, I stand corrected.

D. Quotes? You got it mixed up, he believes himself as inferior to Palpatine, but is actually more powerful when he turns back to the light which is why he could throw him off.
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