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xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sat 2 Nov 2019 - 22:33
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
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  • DAEGEN LOK as in Dawn of the Jedi 
  • WOLF SAZEN as in Legacy
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sat 2 Nov 2019 - 22:33
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Cheth I will make my opener in the coming week
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sat 2 Nov 2019 - 22:38
Catch the W SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4233314142 @cheth
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level One
Level One

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 0:46
This seems like a very interesting debate. Dawn of the Jedi is largely an unexplored era in SW debating.
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 1:25
Nice work on the edits @Xolthol, and llokking forward to your opener.  

Thanks @Blade_of_Dorin

Yeah I'm curious to see how this works out @MasterCilghal
Word Salad
Word Salad
Level Two
Level Two

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 8:01
TAEP, please.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 9:20
i know, i really do, that we arent supposed to comment on these threads, but like, doesnt lok stomp, ish?
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 11:35
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i know, i really do, that we arent supposed to comment on these threads, but like, doesnt lok stomp, ish?
Not nessecarily. Though if @Xolthol decides its unbalanced at any point in the debate, I won't mind going down to Shae.
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 11:39
@Cheth I didn't think this is an unbalanced fight. It's ok for me.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 11:51
ok, thanks. sorry for interrupting.
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Sun 3 Nov 2019 - 16:50
@lorenzo.r.2nd no problem
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 10:51
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

OPENING THE CONFRONTATION




*VECTOR CADE*


In order to start this fight, let me introduce you to Cade Skywalker, last known members of the Luke Skywalker bloodline (something that by itself speaks volume about its power). Now lets focus on Cade during the Vector event...

We have that Cade as in his Vector iteration is one really impressive fighter. Indeed he had two really imprssive thing for him: his shatterpoint ability and a gigantic raw power .

~Shatterpoint~

One of his most impressive skill is his shatterpoint ability allowing him to see the weakness in someone or something:
Legacy #26: Hidden Temple wrote:I can see where a being is weak or broken. I can pour the Force into those breaks just enough to heal. Or I can use it to tear you apart.

Legacy #16: Claw of the Dragon wrote:I can see the weak points in you like little broken red lines![...]Pour the Force into the place where the red lines intersect. Or—and here's a new idea—Maybe I could explode that point. Kill you.

But one of the most interresting feat that Vector Cade have done and that show you just how efficient was this power was when he destroy the Muur Talisman:

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4235936-bounty%20cade%20mental%20resistance%20muur%202

This is truly impressive knowing that this amulet have been created by Sorzus Syn and was considered by her as one of her most impressive realisation:

Sorzus Syn wrote:My experimentation with the Heart of Graush and my alchemic mastery of raising Sithspawn will culminate in the first Great Amulet to be worn by one of the Lords of the Sith.

And thanks to this, the sith lord Karness Muur was able to exist as a spirit and could even stay alive and allow its host not to age:
Jedi Acaademy Training Manual wrote:In addition, the Muur Talisman stops all aging in the host.

Another important think that you must keep in the mind is that this no one find how to destroy this dangerous Talisman so take the decision to let it attached to Celeste Morne in order not to harm or corrupt any other person.

With all of this, we can easily understand that at the time of Vector, Cade have mastered its shatterpoint ability at an impressive point, making him insanely deadly in a fight.

~Power of the Skywalker~


In addition to this impressive ability, lets have a brief view of Cade raw power.

Just after his training under the tutelage of Darth Talon, Cade Skywalker faced Darth Nihl in a furious fight where he chopped his arm and then throw the Nagai warlord into a wall with enough power to knock him out.
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) F6r0GnN0pV0pRs6t-JIDF30sfqozZgz8AFrptIFrWkimTNiwTmbg0Uc1Xmi_NlAYz9RgV3-bW2VZ=s1600

Even though we didn't know if Cade use TK or sheer physical strenght in both case this is a clear proof of an immense power. 
Indeed, Darth Nihl is one of the two hands of Darth Krayt. The other one is Darth Talon. It seems that Nihl was more powerful than Talon based on this two facts:

  • When Krayt was killed by Cade, Darth Nihl was the one who takes the lead of the One Sith order instead of Darth Talon
  • In a training session, Darth Talon seems badly hurt by Darth Nihl

Legacy #16 : Claws of the Dragon wrote:"I can see where you got wounded recently. Someone smack you during a sparring session? Bet it was Nihl" 
Cade talking to Darth Talon

Because of all of this, we can agree that Nihl is more resilient than Talon. And the same Talon was able to come back unphased from being thrown at hundred meters under large rest of starship:

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4574234-starship SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4574235-starship2 SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4574236-starship3 SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4574237-starship4 SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4574238-starship5

Basically we have that the strike that Cade deliver (physical or telekinetic) had more power than a relatively big ship thrown up to hundred of meters.
This speaks volum about Cade's raw force power, globally we have this:
Vector Cade TK >>>>>>>Lifting then Throwing on hundred meters hundred (maybe even thousand) kilos whitout any visible signs of being tired.

~Partial Conclusion~

 If you made the addition of the power of Cade and his shatterpoint ability we have that in his vector iteration his TK strike must be insanely deadly because extremely powerful and launch in the right place to deal the maximum of dammage.

*KRAYT'S FIST*


Lets me introduce you to Darth Stryfe, leader of the One Sith order army, Krayt's Fist. 
One  of the most impressive feat for Darth Stryfe is the fact that he was able to stalemate Cade Skywalker (Vector Iteration). This is particularly impressive knowing that he was even able to telekinectically stalemate him.

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 4577304-02

Lets just made a quick analysis of this to know whether or not this is a stalemate.
There is two starting possibilities:

  1. Stryfe land a TK strike and Cade counter it
  2. Cade land a TK strike and Stryfe counter it


If we are in P1, one can argue that Cade didn't need to be working at full power and only need to counter the power throw at him by Stryfe. But this theory have two mains flaws. First of all, Cade have no way to gauge the power that Stryfe  put in its TK attack. Based on this there is no way for him to only provide the power needed to just counter this strike. The second problem with this theory is: why will Cade only counter Stryfe attack if he can just overpower him? There is just zero reason. Clearly this is the proof that this is a real stalemate.
If we are in P2, someone can say that Cade didn't use his full power but only part of it. Once again this is idea isn't logic at all. Why would Cade do this? He had just no reason not to go full power in this strike. In addition to this, when looking at his face, he seems clear that he is clenching his teeth like when you are doing a huge effort. 

In addition to this, we also have the fact that Cade asked for some help in order to end this fight:
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) JeKq3j4-VEaZ3ZqpFUC1rKs4eMdDOZXLD7MlZgUJ9_WE6ynnxbLb3U5ltUcx4mxpdy8iOkhmk3c=s1600

Once again, why Cade would ask for some help if he could just trash Darth Stryfe with the Force or with his lightsaber skills ?

In addition to this, we have that Stryfe is qualified as :
Legacy #0 wrote:Darth Stryfe is an explosion of raw power
Legacy #0.5 wrote:Darth Stryfe is raw power personified, waiting to be unleashed

All of this, in addition to all we can see during the whole Legacy serie, clearly show that Stryfe is way more someone who try to brutally overpowered his ennemy rather than trying to find its default in his defense and use it. 
As a result, we have that when he faced Cade, while this latter used shatterpoint to strike where it can hurt the most, Krayt's Fist just counter with raw power, compensating his lack of raffinement with brute force.

This allow us to put Stryfe around Cade (Vector iteration) level in term of overall Force power and maybe just below him in term of lightsaber skills.

*STALEMATING DARTH STRYFE ?*


The last feat that Wolf Sazen have done in his life was defeating the Sith Lord Darth Stryfe. This happend in a brief clash that result in the death of both of the fighter. This is classicaly seen as the proof of Sazen being equal to Stryfe, but this isn't totally accurate. Lets see the fight and then add some context. 

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Tgtv_10ekOE0LrEFIB9CKRSAH_g5CITW2OsjE3PrN6Garth4H59A_RU4TviSBaf2YBPSwUEBYtld=s1600
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) OVHcE_HmzcjBICKMXuXXPloualqxlBpFj85HY1347xGkKIo4t2ONynWeW9mNLIaw14GwZWqMivkb=s1600

~One with the Force~


As you can see here, Wolf sucessfully killed Stryfe but even though he died in the confrontation, it is important to take into account that the jedi become one with the Force instead of just dying -this is perfectly visible by the fact that only remains on the ground his clothes and his lightsaber-. One of the interresting part here is the fact that Wolf Sazen was able to do this while in the heart of a fight. 

Now the question here is: in what way this is relevant. Well, Wolf isn't the first one to becoming one with the force during a fight, Ben Kenobi have also done this in A New Hope.

Lets see what Obi-Wan Kenobi have done:

Death Star wrote:But Obi-Wan glanced away, quickly, then looked back at Vader. Then he did the last thing Vader could have possibly imagined --
He smiled.
It was an expression not the least worried; almost beatific, in fact. Then, still smiling, Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber so that the tip pointed straight up at the ceiling.
ANH Junior Novelization wrote:Ben looked to Luke and smiled, then raised his lightsaber before him and closed his eyes. He looked almost serene.
Darth Vader thought Obi-Wan was surrendering, but the dark lord was without mercy. Vader's lightsaber swept through the air and sliced through Ben's form. Ben's cloak and lightsaber fell to the floor. His body was gone

And in the film itself [1:51]
As you can see in each single instance, Obi-Wan stop fighting then when Vader strikes, become one with the Force. 

The interresting fact here is the fact that Vader and Obi-Wan were fighting in a standstill as Vader acknowledge himself:
Death Star wrote: Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.
Death Star wrote:He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye

This two quotes are the perfect proof that Ben Kenobi was a real challenge against Vader, up to the point that Vader cannot even afford to warned his troopers. 
But when Kenobi decide to become one with the Force, he stops fighting. Why? There is two possibilities:

  1. Kenobi need some focus or strenght and cannot gathered them during this close fight.
  2. Kenobi have no reason and instead of trying to strike Vader in order to help Luke and his friends to escape decide to stop fighting.


Clearly the second options is absolutely illogic and the first one is obviously the right one.

Now that you have this, think a minute about what this imply for Wolf against Stryfe...
We have that : the gap of fighting capacity between Wolf and Stryfe is bigger than the one between Ben and Vader. 
And we know that :Vader and Kenobi are in a perfect stalemate.
So we can deduce that: Sazen had the upper hand in this fight.

With all of this into the mind it seems pretty obvious that Wolf Sazen wasn't fully on the fight but must have keept a bit of focus or strenght in order to become one with the Force. 
Basically he wasn't operating at his maximum efficiency. Against Lok he won't do this and will be fully focus on the fight.

~A Dark Era~


One other thing to take into account when seeing this fight is the galactic context, particularly the balance of the force in this particular era. And as provided by multiple sources, in this era, the Dark Side is more powerful than ever

Legacy Campaign guide wrote:In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere. With Sith Lords in every sector and at the heads of Imperial space fleets, the influence of the the dark is stronger than ever, and far more visible. The Sith act overtly, making it clear that they rule the Empire and, by extension, the galaxy. Not since the days of Darth Revan and Darth Malak have the Sith ruled so convincely. The dark side of the Force clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before.

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) 7U543p6

As precisely explained in this quotes, the Dark Side here increase the power of the Sith acting like a galactic amp while hindering the power of the Jedi. 
With this into the mind, the showing of Sazen is way more impressive, he was able to slay Darth Stryfe while this latter was amp and himself hindered.

~Partial Conclusion~

As the result of this little analysis we have that:

  • Wolf Sazen wasn't fully focus on the fight 
  • The Zabrak Jedi was hindered during this fight while his opponent was amp.

 
Because of all of this it is pretty clear that under normal circumstances, Wolf Sazen will defeat Darth Stryfe.


*CONCLUSION*


The result of the scaling chain is the following:

Wolf Sazen > Darth Stryfe ~ Vector Cade >>>>>>>>>>>> Lifting and throwing on hundred meters, hundred (if not thousand) kilos without being tired after this. 

This is clearly more than anything that Daegan Lok can put on the table. 

Wolf Sazen win simply by being in an other league than Lok fair and simple.

@Cheth The ball is in your court sir !
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 10:53
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 11:00
thats pretty good tbh. interesting to see how this turns out
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 11:26
While I heavily disagree with just about everything, its a good starter. I'll reply when I get the chance. Probaly tomorrow.
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 11:31
And just for the record; I'm allowed to counter you aleready in my starter or?
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Wed 6 Nov 2019 - 14:26
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Cheth yep, you can start to counter
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Thu 7 Nov 2019 - 15:36
@Xolthol delayed since power's been out all day sorry, and couldn't be bothered to reply on phone😅. Will hopefully be fixed tomorrow
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Thu 7 Nov 2019 - 16:03
@Cheth No problem, take your time.
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Mon 11 Nov 2019 - 2:03
@Xolthol so apparently my internet won't return for the next 10 days. But I hope to be able to reply before that
xolthol
xolthol

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Mon 11 Nov 2019 - 10:07
@Cheth Ok, good luck with your internet connection ^^
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Mon 11 Nov 2019 - 14:52
@xolthol wrote:@Cheth Ok, good luck with your internet connection ^^
Thank you, but I've actually managed to get some sort of connection on my computer (it won't last), so I'll respond today or tomorrow
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Tue 12 Nov 2019 - 9:52
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
@Xolthol Before I start, I just want to mention that I've heard that I can seem overly aggressive or insulting in my debates. In no way do I intend to be either, so just ignore anything that seems that way. Sorry in advance


Wolf Sazen


To start off, I do not feel the need to debunk any of your arguments for Cade. Infact, Cade’s ability is highly irrelevant for this debate. While the relation between Nihl and Talon also is largely irrelevant, I will still address it since a few things bugged me. Your first point was, and I quote: 


“When Krayt was killed by Cade, Darth Nihl was the one who takes the lead of the One Sith order instead of Darth Talon”
Leadership does not have a direct correlation to power, strength, or ability as a warrior, but rather qualities that allows someone to make good decisions. And in that aspect, Nihl was far more suited than Talon, as he was a former warlord who already had been “a scourge of the Unknown Regions before joining the sith.”, indicating he was quite successful at leading the nagai. Darth Maladi even noted that he was a skilled warlord in his own right, and claimed he was the only other option to lead the One Sith with Krayt dead. 
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Nihl_210

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Nihl10

"The man who would eventually take the name Darth Nihl was once a Nagai warlord and a scourge of the Unknown Regions before joining the Sith. Darth Nihl used his latent skill with the Force to lead bands of marauders in raids all across his world, well outside of the domain of the Galactic Alliance."
--Legacy Era Campaign Guide


Talon on the other hand is noted for her “relative inexperience”, and is trained not for leadership, but “how to use the Force and the art of lightsaber combat”. 


"Darth Talon grows up on Korriban, where she is taught how to use the Force and the art of lightsaber combat, and conditioned to be in top physical condition. Her training is harsh, as all Sith training is, yet she manages to survive and flourish."
--Legacy Era Campaign Guide


In conclusion, Nihl was a leader, Talon an assassin. Nihl didn’t become the new leader because he was more skilled or powerful, but since he was more qualified. Not that he truly was their leader either. The One Sith all did their own thing after Krayt’s death. 


A more valid point is the fact that the two have actually dueled, which kind of negates the need to even bring up the leadership part. You brought up a training session. Which was mentioned once, and the only thing we know of it is that Nihl in some way or another hurt Talon. We don’t know who won it or if Nihl was hit too. So why bring it up instead of the duel they actually had? In which Nihl had the help of a tuk’ata, and still the fight ended without a conclusion since Krayt stopped him. Sure you could argue Nihl had the advantage near the end, but he started with one too. And tuk’ata are more than capable of posing a significant threat. 

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Nihl_v10

What confuses me however, is how you jumped from Nihl > Talon to Nihl being more resilient than Talon, which are two completely different things. Even if I agree that Nihl > Talon, or you manage to prove so, it still doesn’t mean he’s superior in every aspect. Exar Kun or Ulic Qel-Droma would beat Nomi Sunrider, but she still was far superior at battle meditation. Throughout the legacy storyline, Talon has taken incredible amounts of damage, and mostly got back up, due to being “conditioned to be in top physical condition.” (I already posted that scan), and due to her being incredibly loyal to Krayt, to a degree where she’d die for him. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Nihl is able to take as many hits as her, just because he MIGHT be superior to her. And in the scans you posted, we see Cade using lightning for his shatterpoint ability, not TK. So to assume that since Cade destroyed the Muur talisman with shatterpoint and lightning, his TK would be able to do the same, seems baseless.


Partial conclusion (though it may as well be final): 


Nihl might be superior to Talon, but we have minor evidence to suggest it, and even if he is, he’s still not as durable as her. There is also no reason to assume his TK is affected by his shatterpoint ability, as he has never combined the two before. There’s also a difference in being hit by an object that was thrown with TK, and being directly kicked into a wall after having your arm cut off. There’s no reason to think Cade has grown in TK power from when he threw the ship to when he stomped Nihl.  


More importantly, none of this matters since its completely irrelevant to Wolf. 


Stryfe vs Cade


This will be short, I feel no need to address the telekinetic battle. It was short, but Stryfe did temporarily match Cade. Until he seconds later was sent flying by a simple kick since he left his guard open. Which is a recurring theme for Stryfe really. More on that later though. Cade asking for help was mainly since he was occupied trying to defeat Krayt once and for all. Which seems far more likely than Stryfe being equal to someone who stomped Talon, Nihl and then matched Vong Krayt. 


Partial conclusion: 


Cade is superior to Stryfe by virtue of overwhelming his defence with a simple kick, but Stryfe did fend Cade off temporarily. Temporarily meaning a single attack. 


Force Ghost and Dark Era


In reference to Wolf turning into a force ghost directly after his confrontation with Stryfe, you said “Now the question here is: in what way is this relevant?”. The answer is simple; it isn’t. You claimed that Ben needed to gather strength and power to become a force ghost after his death, and justified this by saying he would have tried to fight Vader and Luke and the rest a chance to escape. But. They did escape anyways? Ben kept fighting until the point where they were perfectly capable of escaping on their own. And like you said, “Ben and Vader are in a perfect stalemate”, and troopers were about to involve themselves. Being in a stalemate, Ben knows he can’t win. Since Vader has reinforcements nearby, Vader would soon gain the advantage. Luke and the rest already have the headstart they require to escape. Ben stopped fighting since there was no reason to continue. Infact that position is used multiple times for jedi at peace who are ready to die. One of the more interesting examples are Ulic Qel-Droma. 

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Ulic10

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Ulic_210
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Ulic_310
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Ulic_410
As you see here, Ulic stops fighting Sylvar, despite being in a stalemate. And unlike Ben, we know that Ulic does not possess the force at the time, being severed from it by Nomi Sunrider. He knew he could not become a force ghost, not even being a jedi anymore, nor connected to the force. He merely was at peace, seeing no reason to fight Sylvar anymore. His stance is exactly the same as Ben’s as he surrendered. But while Sylvar did not strike him down, he was still killed. And despite not being a force sensitive, his body vanished after his death, becoming a force ghost. Initially, one might claim “like Ben he entered that position to gather power to become a force ghost!”, but there is one major flaw with that argument. Ulic could not gather power, nor draw on the force. Nor did he learn the technique, nor did he know he could turn into one, not being a forceuser nor a jedi. Since you do not require the force to become a force ghost, you definitely do not require to gather strength first. If that isn’t enough to convince you, we also have Qui Gon Jinn and Arca Jeth showing that even when caught off-guard mid-combat, you still can become a force ghost. Well those two and a few dozen others. 


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Arca_j10



SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Master10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojXpHwhIqO8

Now to address the dark era stuff. I honestly don’t even have to add anything here besides your own quotes. According to the first quote you posted it says “ Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere.”, But what you don’t mention is what it says next:


“With Sith Lords in every sector and at the heads of Imperial space fleets, the influence of the the dark is stronger than ever, and far more visible. The Sith act overtly, making it clear that they rule the Empire and, by extension, the galaxy. Not since the days of Darth Revan and Darth Malak have the Sith ruled so convincely.”


None of this seems to imply that the darkside is more powerful than the lightside in anything but influence and military force. Infact mentioning Revan and Malak “ruling so convincely” further suggests they refer to the fact that it is about the sith openly controlling everything, not the darkside itself being superior to the light. The picture just further supports that. “Its more than just a function of having the sith in power: the jedi have been diminished and everywhere violence, hatred, and selfishness rule supreme.”. All this means is that the sith are in control, the jedi are few in numbers, and that under the rule of the sith, people focus on caring for themselves, not others. Its quite similar to KOTOR (which the quote you posted compares this era to), where most that you meet, even those normally good, seem too worried to help you unless you help them first. 


And even if we were to say that Stryfe was amped by the era (he was not, this is just hypothetically), that would be his standard state throughout all of legacy, including during his fight with Cade, and his fight with Saarai. So litterary all his fights. So in the end, how impressive would he really have been if this was the case? 


Now onto the most important part of your point, how did the fight between Stryfe and Wolf truly go? I’ve already shown that Wolf did not hold back to become a ghost, and that Stryfe was most likely not amped (though again, wouldn’t make a difference). But I still have to address who I think held the advantage. I honestly think it was a stalemate. I won’t claim otherwise. However I could. Stryfe was always known to be an aggressive fighter no matter the circumstances. Like your quotes said, he was an “explosion of raw power”. His fight with Saarai for example, show him trying to kill her, instead of focusing on his own defence as she already had him in a telekinetic grip. The reason Stryfe went so openly against Wolf, was not since he wanted to sacrifice himself, but since that is just his fighting style. But Wolf fully intended to sacrifice himself. 


You claimed he died since he focused on becoming a ghost while fighting Stryfe, limiting his power and focus. But while I’ve already disproved that, I still don’t see the sense behind that argument. If Wolf normally was superior, why would he let himself die, instead of just plainly kill Stryfe in combat. He’d surely be useful against the thousands of other sith. You said this was illogical “Kenobi have no reason and instead of trying to strike Vader in order to help Luke and his friends to escape decide to stop fighting.”, but for me, it seems far more illogical to sacrifice yourself during an ongoing battle, when you don’t really have to. And don’t say he did it because he knew Cade could do it. Several sith escaped, and Cade won through luck, he’d definitely be useful alive. No. If anything, Wolf was the inferior one. Sacrificing yourself and dragging your opponent with you isn’t something you do if you’re superior, its a desperate act, an attempt to give your life so someone else won’t have to. For an example of this, look at Shaak Ti and Galen Marek. Shaak realised she could not win, and in the end tried to kill Galen by sacrificing himself. However unlike Stryfe, Galen was a skilled duelist of all forms, known to be wary at all times (PROXY would ambush him constantly to make sure of that), and narrowly managed to block the strike. 


“On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice’s left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue.
She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss.
He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time.”
-The Force Unleashed novelisation
Conclusion: 
Wolf did not require to concentrate or gather power to become a force ghost, Stryfe was not amped, and if he was it wouldn’t matter since that’d be his normal state (similar to nightsisters on Dathomir), and if anyone had the advantage, it was Stryfe, not Wolf. 
 
Daegen Lok
Dueling Skill
While this isn’t that important for this matchup, as Lok’s ability with the force is what will be decisive, I still thought I’d at least mention his skill, so that its clear that Lok is more than capable of matching or even beating Wolf in pure dueling. There’s not much to do in this category than simply show what he does and why its impressive. To start off we have Daegen Lok killing Queen Hadiya, a warlord, even after hesitating, and then moving on to slaughter a platoon of her best warriors while wounded. Do note that at this point he hadn’t really mastered the force yet (in fact he was a ranger, roughly what translates to a jedi knight), so it appears he used strictly the blade. Since he used a regular blade, he also would be unable to simply cut through weapon and armor like jedi, and instead had to kill them all with skill alone. 


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Daegen10



Next we have him fighting je’daii ranger Zana and Temple Master Jake Fenn. A temple master was such a notable master that he was given control over one of the nine je’daii temples, likely putting him above most, if not all other members of the order. A temple master would roughly translate to a jedi high council member. While Lok doesn’t quite duel Zana, we have him noting that she never was his match with a blade. She does disagree, but so does Fenn, a temple master (which would make him far superior to her), and he proceeds to lose to Lok. Its also worth noting that the je’daii had a very low opinion of him, thinking he was mad, when in reality he just saw a mostly accurate vision of the future. You could argue Lok only beat Fenn by tricking him, but most of the fight was off-panel, and you see that both of Fenn’s arms are heavily wounded after dueling Lok, so if nothing else, it was a stalemate. This becomes remarkably impressive when you realise that Lok had been imprisoned for years beforehand, and this was the first time he had dueled since before that. He’s even noted to be out of practice. So in prime conditions, he most likely would be undeniably superior to Fenn. 


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs10

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs11

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs12

Fenn and Zana, with the help of journeyer (padawan) Rath managed to defeat a pack of terenta, the early versions of terentatek, which already are noted for having killed forceusers. 



SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Fenn_z10

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Team_v10

Just incase that still isn’t quite enough to convince you of Lok’s skill in dueling, lets go to the feats where he isn’t horribly out of practice, and where he has his forcesaber instead of a metal sword. First we have him easily beating je’daii ranger Rori Fenn. And while she used a sword, its still mildly impressive judging by how Shae Koda, a simple journeyer, managed to match Xesh despite having the same disadvantage. More impressive however, is that Lok regularly killed multiple flesh raiders at once, despite them being “beasts bred for war”.
SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs13

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs14

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Rath_a10

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_le10

Mind Twist
But as I already mentioned, you can pretty much ignore everything about his lightsaber skills, since all Lok will need is his mind twist. Its not just that Wolf has no feats for his will or his ability to block force-based attacks, but also that Lok would ignore them anyways. There are countless examples of him using this power, but I’ll focus on the most notable ones. First of we have him using it on jedi ranger Zana. Here he makes her experience her greatest fear; being set on fire. The mind twist was so powerful that her body actually showed signs of burns, which gradually got worse, to where it almost covered her entire body. The je’daii were unable to stop it, even moving to another planet, and a je’daii temple master trying to help. This is even more impressive considering the planet they moved her to was Tython, a force nexus which would drastically increase the je’daii’s power. 


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs20

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs21





During the same encounter, and despite being wounded and having no break between the two fights, Lok again used the mind twist. But this time he used it on je’daii temple master Jake Fenn. And exposing his fear, he force pushed Zana a significant distance:


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs22

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Lok_vs23





Just to show how powerful the temple masters were, I’ll show their greatest feat:
As Xesh arrived on Tython, a whole ship of darksiders (rakatans), including his own master, died on its surface, and were absorbed into Xesh, making him a darkside nexus. Throwing Tython off-balance. This in turn made massive force storms appear, as well as quickly making the planet destroy itself. Xesh and the force storms fed on each other, both becoming massively powerful. 
However, all the nine je’daii temple masters, including Jake Fenn, gather their power, each becoming “points of light” in the massive darkness of the planet. Through combining their power, the jedi managed to dissipate the power of the force storms, Xesh, and then bring balance to the planet again. 


SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Xesh_f12

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Xesh_s11

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Xesh_f13



So 9 je’daii temple masters >>>> Xesh, force storms, multiple natural disasters, and a nexus threatening to destroy the entirety of the planet. Despite being a team effort, it still shows how powerful they are, and if they combined are more powerful than a darkside nexus able to destroy a planet, they should still be considerably powerful individually. 


Conclusion

While most of the arguments presented for Wolf have been debunked or shown irrelevant, Daegen Lok is at the very least equal to Wolf with the blade (though likely superior), and there is nothing Wolf could do against Lok’s mind twist. As soon as the fight would begin Wolf would have his mind broken completely.


Last edited by Cheth on Tue 12 Nov 2019 - 10:13; edited 1 time in total
DC77 (Reborn)
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SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Tue 12 Nov 2019 - 10:06
Good post.
Cheth
Cheth

SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol) Empty Re: SS - DAEGEN LOK (Cheth) vs WOLF SAZEN (xolthol)

on Tue 12 Nov 2019 - 10:14
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Good post.
Thanks mate

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