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- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 2nd 2019, 7:05 pm
pretty much. just look at him in rogue one lol
- O-Siri
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 3rd 2019, 7:53 am
He said he accepted the idea they were old and crippled as a story explanation, on account of the actor's limitations. It's basically a case of real-life writing the plot. The official explanation for Ben and Vader being slow is that they're old and crippled not that the characters are in actuality fighting at a more intense pace than what we are seeing onscreen, according to Lucas, and that he wants the audience to imagine a different sort of fight similar to the PT, he's saying the reason they are slow is that they are old and crippled.WalkingInCircles wrote:...Lucas also debunked the idea that they were slow, crippled and old as a factor by confirming it was a purely logistical quote, lmao.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 3rd 2019, 8:07 am
Which is debunked a line later:O-Siri wrote:He said he accepted the idea they were old and crippled as a story explanation, on account of the actor's limitations. It's basically a case of real-life writing the plot. The official explanation for Ben and Vader being slow is that they're old and crippled not that the characters are in actuality fighting at a more intense pace than what we are seeing onscreen, according to Lucas, and that he wants the audience to imagine a different sort of fight similar to the PT, he's saying the reason they are slow is that they are old and crippled.WalkingInCircles wrote:...Lucas also debunked the idea that they were slow, crippled and old as a factor by confirming it was a purely logistical quote, lmao.
So either Vader got treatment for his "old" and "crippled" self, he infinitely improved by ESB, or it's not meant to be taken as a debating point. Either way, it's clearly not a thing in the novel or base script.
And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 3rd 2019, 12:22 pm
yeah, him being crippled and what the fuck not is clearly not what other source materials show us.
- O-Siri
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 3rd 2019, 11:57 pm
WalkingInCircles wrote:So either Vader got treatment for his "old" and "crippled" self, he infinitely improved by ESB, or it's not meant to be taken as a debating point. Either way, it's clearly not a thing in the novel or base script.
Yes he did get treatment for his old crippled self, as stated in Fightsaber he went from being a shadow of his former self too far more formidable, yet still lacking the advanced polish of study with lifelong masters.
We can certainly take it seriously as a debating point in regards to ANH Vader and Ben being shot fighters it's not mutually exclusive with Vader improving himsef yet still being below TPM Kenobi and Jinn. Jinn and TPM Kenobi can honestly exceed Luke's performance just going by the basic logic they are far better trained both physically and mentally and more battle-tested.
- dark_globe
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 4:01 am
OK stop this shejt already . TPM kenobi sucks ... period .
yes he has training but he is not nearly as naturally talented and gifted with the force as ESB luke or AoTC anakin .
his only feat is to hold his own for a while against maul (while massively rage amped) and
than cheap shooting cocky maul after being technically beaten .
prior to that he was getting kicked left and right while having jinns assistance
and he was not even that much of a concern for maul in the fight before jinn died .
jinn is better but he would still lose to vader .
if you imagine old ben vs jinn fight my money are definitely on ben kenobi
(same ben who was inferior to ANH vader and died in a duel ,
same ben who killed maul 2 years prior to ANH events)
conclusion: ANH vader > old ben > old maul > TPM jinn > TPM kenobi .
the only reason to make those excuses (them being old and crippled etc.) is because
back than lucas did not have a CGI technology to make that fight look better .
look at vader in reworked fight with ben or in rogue one and you get the picture how good vader is supposed to be .
yes he has training but he is not nearly as naturally talented and gifted with the force as ESB luke or AoTC anakin .
his only feat is to hold his own for a while against maul (while massively rage amped) and
than cheap shooting cocky maul after being technically beaten .
prior to that he was getting kicked left and right while having jinns assistance
and he was not even that much of a concern for maul in the fight before jinn died .
jinn is better but he would still lose to vader .
if you imagine old ben vs jinn fight my money are definitely on ben kenobi
(same ben who was inferior to ANH vader and died in a duel ,
same ben who killed maul 2 years prior to ANH events)
conclusion: ANH vader > old ben > old maul > TPM jinn > TPM kenobi .
the only reason to make those excuses (them being old and crippled etc.) is because
back than lucas did not have a CGI technology to make that fight look better .
look at vader in reworked fight with ben or in rogue one and you get the picture how good vader is supposed to be .
- O-Siri
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 2:28 pm
dark_globe wrote:yes he has training but he is not nearly as naturally talented and gifted with the force as ESB luke or AoTC anakin .
"Only a fully trained Jedi knight, with the Force as his ally ... will conquer Vader and his emperor."
TPM Kenobi was fully trained and only needed to pass the trial of the spirit to become a Jedi Knight, conditions of which he satisfied by defeating Maul under extremely adverse circumstances. Luke couldn't do the same when he faced his demons on Dagobah.
As it stands he's a more complete fighter than ESB Luke.
his only feat is to hold his own for a while against maul (while massively rage amped)
TPM Maul >>>>>>>>> OT Vader. A better fighter in every conceivable way. Weapons training - even ESB Vader lacks the polish of advanced masters - athleticism - his strength and resiliency is at least comparable - and speed.
than cheap shooting cocky maul after being technically beaten
Maul was caught off guard but it was still a pretty long distance for Kenobi to cover, plenty of time to react and in fact, he tried to in the Wrath of Darth Maul:
The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Maul glared at Obi-Wan. He wondered how long the Jedi could cling to the nub. He knew Obi-Wan’s hands and arms would get tired eventually. Growing impatient. Maul swung his pared-down lightsaber against the metal edge of the core’s upper rim, sending sparks flying out over Obi-Wan’s head. Maul noted that his blade did not damage the metal and realized it was impervious to energy weapons. He wondered if the metal could be crafted into body armor.
Maul wasn't toying with Kenobi here he was genuinely impatient and was trying to shake him off with sparks.
The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Obi-Wan flew up out of the core. Maul had forgotten about Qui-Gon Jinn’s lightsaber, which flew up from the floor near the fallen Jedi’s body and landed in the waiting hand of the still-airborne Obi-Wan. Maul rapidly transferred his lightsaber from his right hand to his left. Obi-Wan activated Qui-Gon’s lightsaber as he soared overhead and landed behind Maul. Maul spun fast, but not fast enough to stop Obi-Wan from swinging Qui-Gon’s blade through his midsection.
He did realize what Kenobi was trying to do once Jinn's lightsaber was transferred to his hand in mid-air and tried to counter Kenobi but he wasn't quick enough.
Now I'm not saying TPM Kenobi is more skilled or superior to TPM Maul or even equal, but it's still an incredible feat for him as Kenobi had to clear his mind and put aside his grief and fear to attain that moment of clarity and summon the strength to defeat Maul. It's a great feat of courage and discipline. ESB Luke wouldn't at this stage be able to replicate that, he's too emotionally vulnerable.
jinn is better but he would still lose to vader .
Naw not really. He's a better technician.
if you imagine old ben vs jinn fight my money are definitely on ben kenobi
Jinn aged far better than Kenobi and while he's a little past-prime he isn't totally shot like Ben.
same ben who killed maul 2 years prior to ANH events)
That's Disney canon. Obviously, Disney Canon Suit Vader is superior to all the PT greats below Yoda and Mace.
- dark_globe
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 2:54 pm
this quote means nothing . and it is vagueO-Siri wrote:"Only a fully trained Jedi knight, with the Force as his ally ... will conquer Vader and his emperor."
TPM Kenobi was fully trained and only needed to pass the trial of the spirit to become a Jedi Knight, conditions of which he satisfied by defeating Maul under extremely adverse circumstances. Luke couldn't do the same when he faced his demons on Dagobah.
As it stands he's a more complete fighter than ESB Luke.
going by this logic any so called "fully trained jedi knight" could stood up to vader or the emperor
and any council member level master should stomp them which is ridiculous .
in fact neither TPM obi wan or ESB luke would stand a chance against ANH/ESB vader .
only rage boosted RoTJ luke was able to defeat vader (and at that point he was already 1.5 or 2 tiers above TPM kenobi) .
O-Siri wrote:Naw not really. He's a better technician.
not really . vader has quotes putting him as one of the best duelist ever .
even if this would not be the case he could certainly at the very least hold his own in a duel and he is better in every other cathegory .
better connection with the force , stronger , more powerful ...
he beats jinn and TPM kenobi as well no matter what .
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 3:00 pm
it all comes down to how u look at it. maul besting vader means that TPM obi wan would have a chance, which would put him above SK, galen marek, anya kuro, etc, 5 jedi masters at the same time, etc, which is obviously not the case. i see that as a slight, small outlier, imo
- dark_globe
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 3:04 pm
maul never bested vader though .
vader only fought mauls doppelganger in non canon comic and vader won that one by the skin of his teeths
vader only fought mauls doppelganger in non canon comic and vader won that one by the skin of his teeths
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul
November 4th 2019, 3:04 pm
Maul wins.
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