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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:51 pm
You're right. A love for SK and KFV while also mentioning he has SSs to write.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
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Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:33 pm
Yup, it's HP.

OT-Throw me in for my boy KF Vader. Anakin wank needs to cleans-weep through this round.
xolthol
xolthol

Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:47 am
@KingofBlades I will write a rebutal in the coming days
xolthol
xolthol

Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:57 am
@KingofBlades


*DOOKU FIGHTS COMPARISON*

Regardless Dooku would still be able to compensate via augmentation. In fact Anakin makes notes of this in Path of the Jedi when he says that anyone can augment their strength in the force. Dooku also decided to change tactics mid fight to compensate by choosing to guide the strikes away from his body instead of attempting to block them straight up. All this accomplished was changing the fight from a stomp in Anakin's favor to merely a dominating gap. 


Even though Dooku can use the Force to increase his strength or change his tactical way to protect himself this didn't change the fact that by essence Makashi is weaker against power-based strike such which is something that Djem-So heavily emphasize on. 
The point that I made here was on the fact that you can easily explain the difference between Yoda and Anakin intheir respective fact based on their fighting style. 


 I merely argued that Anakin was only comparable to Yoda at that point and he only surpasses Yoda once he goes Zonakin. Which is something you haven't refuted


I think that you also missed my point, I have used the style explanation to precise why Anakin seems to be able to trash so easily Dooku when he goes into Zonakin... And you seems to forget that when Anakin go into Zonakin the Dooku that he faced is already tired by the start against classic Anakin:


RotS Novel wrote:Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him
As you can see, because he is facing a ennemy that used a power-based style he exhausted way faster than when facing Yoda so when Anakin goes into Zonakin he was merely a shadow of himself, not able to resist Skywalker strikes.


*MASTERY OF THE FORCE*

 So the quote wasn't trying to say Anakin had yet to achieve mastery of the force, rather the opposite. Anakin had already ahcieved mastery in the force, but had yet to achieve mastery over his emotions. 
The quote itself can be interpreted as I already explained: he hadn't yet reach mastery of the Force but is trying to and Obi-Wan try to explained him that instead of focusing on mastery of the Force he must trained to reach mastery over himself.
Basically, you didn't proof anything, just giving you your interpretation because it fit your theory.


This makes sense when you consider that a sub par mastery over the force was never a reason mentioned as to why Anakin had yet to be promoted to master. It was always his emotions. Considering the council's bias against Anakin, a low mastery over the force would have been a prime excuse to use to justify Anakin not being promoted
Two mains things here: 

  • Anakin could have reach the mastery of the Force up to some jedi councilor, that won't put him at the level of mastery of Yoda. Except if you think that all Jedi councilor have the same level of mastery (if so the burden of the proof is on you).
  • Not being able to have master yourself is way more relevant than not being able to perfectly master the Force. Indeed, the mastery over himself is the very thing that stop jedi from falling to the dark side. In addition, having a master unable to control himself would have been a shame and a dishonored to the very essence of jedi master who must leads other jedi both by speech and example.



*KF VADER*


Really? You're arguing that it meant the quantity of Anakin's abilities were unparalleled rather than his actual power in the force. 
Absolutely not. I wasn't talking about the quantity of Anakin abilities. I was talking about the fact that his abilitieS are unparalled IE: no one was able to equal them. Which is something really different than no one is as powerful in the force as him.

And this also perfectly works with what you have put on the table with what Skywalker tells Dooku: it wasn't his overall force power which have double but way more its powerS

There's no reason to force this very clunky interpretation that makes no logical sense based off of the usage of the plural form of power, when it makes far more sense to believe its referring to overall potency in the force, and when this usage of "powers" is used following my interpretation in the novel/movie itself
My interpretation makes sense, the only things that did not make sense is your understanding of what I have explained (maybe I wasn't clear enough).

There's reason to believe that Yoda's appraisal of Vader's power is inaccurate. Yoda at this point knows that Anakin has the power to defeat Count Dooku and has seen Anakin effortlessly eliminate Cin Drallig. However Anakin defeated Dooku before he got his power growth upon becoming Darth Vader. And since Vader defeated Drallig so easily, he can't use this battle to accurately guage Vader's full power. So out of the two reference points Yoda has to judge KFV's power, one is outdated and the other is incapable of being used to ascertain the upper limits of Vader's power. Yoda also knows that Sidious single handedly eliminated Mace Windu and the rest of the B Team. Out of these three reference points Yoda has to judge the individual power of the two dark lords, Sidious's feat is far more impressive. 
I agree with this, from anyone perspective Sidious feats are way more impressive than KF Vader at this time.

However as I've already explained why Yoda's reference points for Vader's power don't accurately reflect Vader's current power, Yoda's appraisal of Vader's power compared to Sidious's cannot be considered accurate.
Here is the problem, Yoda knows that Anakin is a force prodigee, he also know what happend to people who falls to the Dark Side (eg: Dooku his old padawan) and must be aware of the current boost in power that they received. If you add more than half a millennium of experience as a jedi, you have someone who must have pretty accurate idea of the level of power of Anakin (taking into account that he also seen the records of the attack on the jedi temple). 
With all of this taking into account, if Anakin was really so much above Sidious (what you are trying to argue) do you really think that Yoda wouldn't have figure it? Its is very unlikely. 
The most that I can give you (I didn't said that I agree with this) is that Anakin is slightly above Sidious but absolutely not leagues above. 

Regardless Yoda's opinion on who is stronger between Vader and Sheev cannot be considered accurate for the reasons I've given
And for the reason that I have given, the opinion of Yoda must clearly take into account.

*DARISH VOL*


Even if I concede to you that Anakin >~Yoda (once again I haven't but lets imagine for one moment), I still didn't see why this put him above someone like Darish Vol taking into account that you did not counter any of my points, I think that you agree with them.

Do you care to explain?

@MasterCilghal
I think the much of the power quote, while obviously impressive, could apply to any character who is Plagueis level or above.
Don't you think that the fact that Abeloth know the full extend of power of Luke and the insane gap of power between Luke and Plagueis put "much of" its power above the league of Plagueis? Other way on what base your theory ?

Luke just doesn’t consistently employ his full power in a fight (which he was forced to do against Unu), add that to the fact that Luke was trying to capture Workan alive, and it really seals the deal for me.
Yes, Luke didn't work every time at full power, but two things here:

  1. FotJ Luke is above DN Luke in term of power
  2. Even though Luke didn't want to kill Workan, the context was a huge crisis and the jedi were leading a surprise strike against the Lost Tribe. Taking this into account and adding the fact that from Luke perspective Workan was one of the only one who know where and who the Grand Lord of the sith was, there isn't any reason for Luke not to try to defeat Workan as fast as possible. The simple fact that Workan was able to give him a good fact put him above UnuThul. Indeed, what could have stop Luke from doing the same thing to Workan to what he did to Unuthul if he have been able to? Severing a limb to someone isn't something that jedi are reluctant to do and is a good way to end a fight quickly without killing your ennemy.


Because of all of this I think that Workan showing and the gap of power between Workan and Vol put this latter above Unuthul.

Furthermore, we know that when it came to facing Abeloth in the real world he was killed. As you know, the scene is not described and happens off-screen, so there is the possibility he might have been defeated easily
Yes I agree on this point. Nonetheless, remember that he wasn't at all ready to face Abeloth, thinking that he will encounter a simple senatrice while Abeloth perfectly known what she will face. In addition, despite some low showing, Abeloth have also some really good showing such as needed FotJ GM Luke Skywalker to use all of his force power to kill one of her avatar and being so tired after the fight that he cannot stand on his legs. Based on this I think that Abeloth stomping Vol isn't something that will surprise me.

*CONCLUSION*


Darish Vol scaling from full power FotJ Luke place him just way to high for any other characters from the PT era or any other period of time.

I would like to hear some arguments in favor of Plagueis (@CuckedCurry @Azronger @Deronn_Solo), Krayt (@ILS @Azronger) or Yoda (@Praxis @Gianfi @dark_globe) or anyone else explaining why they have it above Darish Vol.
ILS
ILS

Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
The two main feats raised for Vol are:

1. Workaan dueling Luke... a Luke who wasn't really taking him seriously at the time. Luke also compared him to Kyp and Kyle, two duelists Luke can verifiably stomp in combat - partly because IIRC Kyp participated in a spar where him and several other Jedi ganged up on Luke, and Luke outmaneuvered them all while holding back massively. And also because a roughed-up Caedus was stalemating Kyle and three other Jedi who were working as a synchronised team, meanwhile, Caedus was very decisively beaten (first in spirit before he TK-grabbed a curtain, and second actually defeated) by a Luke who was emotionally compromised and later in the fight had old injuries flare up, and was also fighting with huge volumes of Vong poison in his system (this poison would also go into Caedus, but only later in the fight).

Luke (hindered) >> Caedus > stalemates Kyle and three others while hindered > Workaan alone

2. Nobody denies that Vol having "much the power of Luke" is impressive, because it means that Vol has to at least be pretty close to Luke - Abeloth is described as having a dozen times Luke's power, even though it wouldn't literally take 12 Luke's to defeat her, much closer to 2 or 3. So for her to describe Vol that way suggests that maybe 2 at most 3 Vol's would be more than enough to defeat Luke. Thing is, the same could clearly be said of Krayt based on Apocalypse alone, so that's not definitive enough for me to give Vol the W.

Next is Vol's actual fight with Abeloth. The two most important parts are 1. He held on to her when she tried to blast him away, and 2. He caused her huge psychological damage through corrupted Mnemotherapy. 

1. I don't really see as being beyond Krayt - Krayt fought Abeloth and resisted her blasts/throws several times, rooting himself against them, and Vol only did it briefly enough to launch a mental attack on Abeloth - it would have only taken a moment or two.

2. As is noted in earlier books, even if you were using Mnemotherapy for therapeutic purposes, if you weren't painstakingly careful with how you extracted someone's memories, you could cause irreparable damage to their mind. Luke used a corrupted version of it to, likened to wielding a psychic ax to amputate a limb, to separate Callista from being Abeloth's thrall. And then when Vol used it, he plundered directly into Abeloth's deep subconscious and attacked her weakest psychological insecurities and vulnerabilities, which Abeloth described as being even more reckless with the technique than Luke had been. So Vol was using a technique which, by it's very nature, can destroy a mind even if you are using it benevolently - and he used it with reckless violent abandon. So the damage he caused Abeloth is not really indicative of how any of his other abilities would damage her, as this one is disproportionately violent, and Abeloth made the mistake of opening her mind to him. 

The next problem with the Vol arguments presented is the idea that Abeloth unleashed city-busting power on him or something, when really, what happened was she tried to blast him once, he held on, he attacked her mind, then finally she blasted him even harder and threw him out of her mind (at which point Vol was near-death and exhausted) and then, after progressively getting angrier, Abeloth destroyed the city. She wasn't operating at city-melting anger at the start, she built up to it and it was caused by the damage Vol had done, and expressed afterthefact.

Moreover, Krayt's Force Drain caused absolutely massive damage to Abeloth - whereas with Vol she had enough power to melt a city after, with this Drain, all of her other avatars went from defeating their opponents (Ben and Vestara, Saba and her soldiers, and several others) to being swiftly beaten by them. In Saba's case, Abeloth had sent out ghouls which were very fast and hard to kill, and they were basically reduced to slow, pathetic vestiges of what they had been moments ago because Krayt's Drain had taken so much out of Abeloth.

Now, Abeloth has Force reserves that are so extreme she can take damage that would have killed even Luke several times over before her reserves run dry - so for Krayt to have damaged her so much, his Drain basically did the equivalent of killing a high tier Force user. Drain is extremely powerful but also hard to use in combat, which is why he needed Luke to hold Abeloth in place to do this, but nonetheless, Krayt still needs the Force power to cause this damage to Abeloth in the first place - and what people forget is that Krayt was actually being damaged, not healed, by Draining Abeloth, because her Force essence is naturally corrupt, and Krayt screamed in pain when her essence poured into his, and there was even steam coming off of him. While comparing a Mnemotherapy attack to a Force drain attack isn't a perfect comparison, since they are different techniques, there is nothing about what Vol did that tells me he is better than Krayt - comparing their feats is like comparing apples to oranges. 

That said, Krayt's apple did a lot of the work needed to actually kill Abeloth (whereas Vol just made her very angry), and he did it while absorbing her corrupt essence instead of being healed by it, which is how Drain is supposed to work - and while he drained Luke to compensate for this, Luke didn't realise what Krayt was doing and kicked out his knee, so then Krayt drained Luke less... meaning that Krayt was compensating less than he initially believed he would need to because he didn't want Luke to think he was backstabbing him... so the fact Krayt survived what he did to Abeloth alone is pretty damn impressive - Drain is already a very taxing ability to use, but using Drain and being damaged while you are using it instead of being healed ... is quite unprecedented indeed. It's essentially the best Draining feat in the mythos.

Remember Darth Bane's deathfield in DoE? It was a very taxing ability to use because of how powerful it was, and he needed to absorb the life force of non-Force users to keep it up. Deathfield and drain are in the same class of alter-body Force abilities as Force lightning, which we also know from experience is a taxing ability to use at length. So again, the fact Krayt drained Abeloth half to death while only receiving an inadequate amount of healing from Luke to compensate, while also being damaged by Abeloth's corrupt essence pouring into him - surely this is at least as good as Vol's feat, if not better?

So really... Vol just has "much the power of Luke" and can hold on briefly from being blasted by Abeloth. Both of these can easily be attributed to Apoc Krayt, maybe even Caedus (and Troy Denning per his recent tweets would agree with me). Apoc Krayt is less powerful, less skilled/knowledgeable in the Force, less experienced, and has less willpower than Reborn Krayt - Reborn Krayt is stated by himself, the authors of the book and the book itself to be his prime, in a very clear way. So Reborn Krayt would decisively defeat Apoc Krayt in a fight.

Given what I laid out in pages two and three of this thread: http://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1497p25-darth-maul-vs-darth-wyyrlok-iii

I clock Reborn Krayt as being more powerful than RotS Sidious and closest to OT Sidious. That's not somewhere I put Vol based on the limited information we have on him. The top four we currently have are the only four I'd be comfortable putting above Krayt in their primes. After Krayt I'd likely put Yoda then Plagueis.
ILS
ILS

Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Empty Re: Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW!

on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Quick bibliography of sources:

Mnemotherapy - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncVmYoutH9T7djKg_ERoTo-C31cyjFjGYosaREWejZI/edit?usp=sharing

Vol resisting Abeloth:
He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.

No one loves you. You are ugly, and disgusting, and if you ever thought anyone did care for you, you were tricked and lied to, and they laughed at your gullibility.

A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.
[...]
You live causing revulsion, you will die that way. You will die now-

He threw everything he had into the attack, slamming his Force self into the psychic, oozing wound as if he were punching a lacerated torso.

NO!

Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.

Vol surged forward out of the dream so quickly that he hurled himself from his bed and landed hard on the floor, where he lay gasping, weak, so weak, sweat-soaked and terrified. He-used to manipulating objects in the Force, leaping great distances, crushing things with a thought-had not the strength of a new-hatched uvak. It was an effort to lift his head, to push himself up off the floor, and the muscles quivered from that simple strain.


Krayt resisting Abeloth:
He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy.

Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head.

The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.

Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off. He held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles.


Krayt's drain explained and him resisting Abeloth's blasts further:
Then Luke felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back. His first thought was Abeloth, that she had sunk a tentacle into his spine-until the lashing of her tentacles slowed and she began to shudder.
Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.
Still holding Abeloth tight, Luke shifted his hips, rolling them both onto their sides, and kicked a foot through the stranger's knee. The joint buckled, and the Sith dropped onto the surface of the dark water, still on the opposite side of Abeloth from Luke.
"I'll release her!" Luke warned.
"Abeloth?" The stranger shook his head. "Never."
Despite the Sith's words, the cold stinging inside began to subside, and Luke realized the stranger was not pulling as hard. Abeloth continued to struggle, slipping a pair of tentacles around Luke's throat and trying to tear herself free. But she was growing weak faster than Luke.

The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith's wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.


Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke's hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake. She began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's-anything she could reach.

Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control.


"Keep going," Luke urged the stranger. "Pull harder!"



Saba's ghouls becoming drastically weaker immediately after Krayt drained Abeloth:
The red glow in the eyes of the shadow-ghouls faded suddenly to pink, and openings began to appear in their staggered-gauntlet formation. Saba sprang into the first gap, holding her ignited lightsaber between her and the nearest ghoul, trying to reach the body to which it was attached by a long writhing tail. The thing kept trying to slip around the blade's purple-white glow to slash at a head or shoulder or hip.  Saba advanced behind a whirling shield of blocks and slashes, cutting through a shadowy arm here, a leg there, even a neck or body. The pieces dropped away, withering into nothingness before they hit the floor, and the ghoul instantly grew a replacement. Still, the constant hacking was enough to keep the thing from touching Saba, and at last she reached the body itself.  

[...]  

Once Olazon had finished, his voice came over the reception bud in Saba's ear. "You're getting quicker," he said. "And only one hit that time. You okay?"  

Saba put her weight on her aching leg and, when the muscle merely clinched with cold agony and did not collapse, nodded.  "Yesss, but this one is not growing quicker," she said. "They are growing slower. Keep going."  

"You sure, Master Sebatyne?" This from Stomper Two, also speaking over the comm net. "I don't like the changes in their eyes-or how their formation has opened up. This feels like a trap."  The Void Jumper's caution was understandable.  

[...]

But Saba suspected the change was a good sign. During their strategy meeting on Coruscant, the Jedi had realized it was possible to temporarily weaken at least one of Abeloth's avatars by killing another. Kill one, weaken the others. The theory was that Abeloth had only a single Force presence, shared by her avatars, so harming any of her avatars would make it easier to defeat all of them. Assuming that the shadow-ghouls were being animated by Abeloth-and Saba saw no other possibility-then they were growing weaker because Luke was succeeding in the Maw.  And that made it even more important to succeed here-and to succeed quickly. It would do the galaxy no good to kill Abeloth in the Maw if she survived here."

Next, Abeloth is left "tangled in Luke's arms, a writhing mass of Force energy that had suddenly gone limp". She then explodes with energy, but Krayt and Luke hang on to her. Krayt was "wailing in agony" as "gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds". Abeloth manages to break free of them both, and she amputates Krayt's arm doing this. Then when Abeloth tries to escape, Krayt wrenches his amputated arm out of her torso and causes a geyser of Force essence to come pouring out of her...


Abeloth lay tangled in Luke's arms, a writhing mass of Force energy that had suddenly gone limp a second or a day ago, only to explode an hour or a nanosecond later into a flailing tempest that had sent them all rolling and bouncing across the Lake of Apparition's dark waters. The stranger was tumbling with them, his hand still buried in Abeloth's chest, now wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds.

They bounced so close to the shore, Luke grew worried that Abeloth was trying to carry them away from the lake into some new place beyond shadows. And then what? His back hit the water again, and he spun them all around so that his feet were toward the shore. He planted his feet against a moss hummock and kicked off-and sent them all somersaulting back toward the center of the lake. Abeloth stopped struggling and seemed to shrink in his arms, and Luke dared to think that maybe, just maybe she had finally lost hope, that they had exhausted her to the point that she was no longer capable of fighting.


Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith's hand, now pointed at Luke's chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke.

They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him. It seemed to Luke that the Sith's betrayal was premature, that they at least ought to make certain Abeloth was truly dead before they turned to fighting each other...but that was not the way Sith did things.

Luke started to bring his hand up, intending to hit the stranger with a Force blast. But before he could loose it, the Sith's feet dropped to the water's surface, and he raised his stump and pointed toward the far end of the lake.

"There!"

Luke craned his neck and saw Abeloth's silhouette backing into the Mists of Forgetfulness-with the stranger's wrist still protruding from her chest.


"Stop her!" Luke yelled. "If she disappears into that fog..."

Luke left the sentence unfinished as a fountain of oily black Force energy erupted from the protruding wrist. Abeloth's mouth gaped open, and her piercing shriek broke over the lake, reverberating across the water like a clap of thunder. Luke glanced over and saw the stranger standing beside him, pointing in her direction, using the Force to draw his missing hand back toward its stump.


At this point, Abeloth knows she is going to die, so she teleports to Krayt and impales him with her tentacles, "tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could", then when Luke tries to help she does the same to him. Also, very interestingly, it says that she "did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics." - that is what she was doing at the beginning of the fight, so the fact alone that Abeloth would use defensive tactics against Luke and Krayt speaks volumes of their combined power. It means she cannot ragdoll or even seriously off-balance either of them immediately in the fight.
Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now.

And she did.

In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help-and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could.

Then Luke (and presumably Krayt, although the fight is from Luke's perspective so we do not always see what Krayt is doing) hits her with an elbow which is enough to finish her off.
Luke attacked anyway, driving an elbow strike into the side of her head. As before, there was no crunching, no physical sense of impact, only Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both. Luke sensed his elbow come free as it pushed out the other side of Abeloth's head. Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger...each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence.

The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.


Then as we know, Luke lets out what to Jaina sounded like a "death scream through the force and him and Krayt both collapse from their mutual injuries.

Finally to cap off I'll post the section from the Krayt essay that explains the power difference between Apoc/Vong Krayt and Reborn Krayt.
“What no one knows is that Darth Krayt is returning better than before. . .”
—Star Wars: Legacy—War #1

“I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The Dark Side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me!”
—Darth Krayt

“I have become so much more than you can know, traitor.”
—Darth Krayt

Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater.”
—Darth Krayt

“You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then.”
—Darth Krayt

“The re-designing of Darth Krayt has been an interesting challenge both story wise and visually. I went through a bunch of different looks for him, but the one that appealed to me the most was a Krayt who was Yuuzhan Vong parasite free and again in control of his own body—Darth Krayt as a Sith—now at the peak of his power and willing to set the Galaxy to rights as the Force guides him.”
—Jan Duursema

“‘Legacy—War’ will fill readers in on what really happened to Krayt at the end of ‘Vector.’ I’d say that Krayt understands his power better than he ever has before and he is intent on exacting revenge for Wyyrlok’s transgressions.”
—Jan Duursema

"Darth Krayt has returned from the "dead," stronger, more evil, and more determined than ever to crush the galaxy under his heel."
—Star Wars: Legacy—War #1 Solicitation

"It's an all-out war as the Sith emperor returns from the dead-stronger, more evil, more determined, and prepared to unleash a new secret weapon upon the galaxy!"
—Star Wars: Legacy Volume 11 -- War TPB Solicitation

https://imgur.com/a/ISGND

As a potent demonstration of how much more powerful he is compared to Legacy Krayt, we simply need to compare their fights to Cade Skywalker. In Legacy #19, Krayt has a hard-fought duel with Cade that takes place over four comic pages, where Krayt is evidently seething with anger throughout.

https://imgur.com/a/paKz1

Contrast this to their second bout in Legacy: War #6, (37 comic issues and over a year later), where Krayt defeats Cade in one comic page plus a couple of extra panels, launching him at a wall within the opening moments of the fight. Krayt is nonchalant the whole time, insisting that Cade surrender, and easily takes him down with Dark Transfer.

https://imgur.com/a/l6HHX

So not only does Krayt win far more easily, but the most profound method of comparison is in looking at how much more powerful Cade had become between fights. As a Skywalker who, clearly, is incredibly gifted with his unparalleled healing abilities, one might guess that if he spent a year fighting Sith and overcoming numerous challenges, he might increase in power rapidly - and they would be correct.

Cade spoke with Luke Skywalker’s ghost, where he was made to confront his lack of emotional control.
“You lack control of your emotions. Your pride, anger, and pain have made you lash out against everyone. You live in a constant state of revenge. You push everyone away.”
—Luke Skywalker
https://imgur.com/a/Gpvi1


Later, he attempted to cure Deliah Blue of a poison that was so powerful he could not save her without killing her - while drawing on the dark side. For context, Cade had been able to cure himself and others of lethal doses of poison, nigh-incurable vong coral seeds and bring people from the brink of death successfully. He was even on the powerful dark side nexus which inhabited Darth Maladi's lab during this.

Yet, he was able to draw on the light side and not only cure her, but shield them from a massive explosion, walking out unscathed. Clearly, a massive increase in power and control over the Force.
“I need to draw myself deeper into the darkness!”


“No. You must use the light side, Cade.”


“Not… strong… enough! More power in the dark side.”


“That is a lie. Trust the bonds you once felt within the Force when you were my apprentice. The bonds you shared with your father, who walked firmly in the light. They are still strong in you! The Force brought me here to this place, light years from where I was, to be here with you at this moment -- How can you not trust in the power of the light side above the dark? How can you not trust in the power of the Force?”

[...]

“Let the Force flow through me into you. That Sith poison… burns bad… hate and fire… burns bad… love burns brighter, Blue.”

[...]

“Did as you said, master -- tapped into the light side. Hate to say it -- but you were right.”

“Then come back to the Jedi, Cade. Become who you should be.”

“Can’t. I know now what I am. Not Jedi. Not Sith. I am what the Force has made me… the Sith’s worst nightmare. Time to make war.”

—Cade Skywalker and Wolf Sazen


https://imgur.com/a/gyXBf


From this point on, Cade became more focused, waging a war on the Sith, believing that the Force was guiding him to kill Krayt.

“Lightsabers flash against sulfurious skies. Cade Skywalker’s personal war against the Sith has brought him here… searching…”

—Star Wars: Legacy #48

“Cade’s been on a tear ever since he learned this Isen was the one who posioned Dac. Got something else gnawing at him too, but he ain’t told me what. It’s like he wants to kill every Sith in the galaxy all by himself.”

—Jariah Syn

“Look, Pateesas, much as we’ve shared -- you’re not Jedi. I was raised as one. Not sure I can make you understand what it feels like to touch the Force. I was in denial after Ossus, but since that day the Force has been driving me toward something. Then Krayt calls in the Force and brings it all home. Now I know what the Force has been preparing me to do -- Krayt is alive and I gotta kill him.”

—Cade Skywalker


“Cade’s been hunting down all the Sith that he can find.”

—John Ostrander

“That would be Cade. We’ve been through a lot with the guy, seen what motivates him-seen him at his weakest when dealing with addiction and at his strongest, when he decides to become a one man Sith-wrecking machine.”

—Jan Duursema

https://www.cbr.com/ostrander-and-duursema-leave-their-legacy-on-star-wars/

Cade is again able to draw on the light side when healing his mother, learning a lesson of forgiveness, further mastering his emotions.
“Healing costs me. Gone to the dark side to do it every time but one. Healed Blue in the light side -- but I love Deliah, intensely -- and she loves me… I got no love for you. Get it? To heal you I’d have to impose my will on the Force -- go to the dark side -- and I won’t do that. Not for you.”

[...]

“One of the greatest lessons of the light side is forgiveness. Through it we find redemption. Your anger hurts you, Cade, more than it has ever hurt her. Let it go.”

[...]

“I forgive you, mom.”

—Cade Skywalker and Kol Skywalker

https://imgur.com/a/U1Zms


Finally, as stated by Jan Duursema, Cade is “more sober, focused and driven” when he fights Krayt, he has a “new mastery of the Force” and Talon notes he is stronger than before.



“Cade Skywalker is more sober, focused and driven. The party is over. There is no more running and hiding. Destiny has bit him with sharp pointy teeth.”


—Jan Duursema


“When Talon witnessed Cade’s new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal…”


—Star Wars: Legacy—War #6


“Cade is… stronger… than he was.”

—Darth Talon

In other words - the difference between Legacy and Reborn Krayt is so vast that it exceeded the growth rate of a Skywalker who was being tested to his limits over the course of a year. It was so vast that Legacy Krayt struggled against a relatively amateurish Cade, meanwhile Reborn Krayt practically stomped Cade in his prime.


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/the-power-of-darth-krayt-1939829/
IdrisianGraecus
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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:47 pm
My order here is KFV, Revan, Yoda, so... 6 should be interesting
Shioz
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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:49 pm
@ILS Can you give a link to Troy Denning tweets?
MasterCilghal
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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:10 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@ILS wrote:Workaan dueling Luke... a Luke who wasn't really taking him seriously at the time. Luke also compared him to Kyp and Kyle, two duelists Luke can verifiably stomp in combat - partly because IIRC Kyp participated in a spar where him and several other Jedi ganged up on Luke, and Luke outmaneuvered them all while holding back massively. And also because a roughed-up Caedus was stalemating Kyle and three other Jedi who were working as a synchronised team, meanwhile, Caedus was very decisively beaten (first in spirit before he TK-grabbed a curtain, and second actually defeated) by a Luke who was emotionally compromised and later in the fight had old injuries flare up, and was also fighting with huge volumes of Vong poison in his system (this poison would also go into Caedus, but only later in the fight)
Great post, I want to point out something though: 
The sith you are referring to here is Viun Galaan . He’s the one Luke compares with Kyle and Kyp. Ivaar Workan arguably scales vastly above them given that he’s compared to Lady Sashal, another high lord and is basically stated to be far above her in power: 


Ascension wrote:"Sith take what we want," said Sashal, stepping toward Workan. Vol watched both of them closely, idly wondering if Sashal was issuing a challenge to her superior. It would be foolish. She was nowhere near as powerful as Workan. But sometimes ambition and wisdom did not go hand in hand.



All indications are that, in the lost tribe, if you are on a superior rank than someone else you automatically are above him given that advancement through the rank requires force power rather than anything else. Furthermore, the high lords are noted as “utter masters of the force” by Vestara Khai who then gives no such praise to the lords despite introducing them in the statement immediately following: 

Omen wrote:They wore robes that were similar to the Grand Lord's, but slightly less ornate. Less powerful manipulators of the Force than Vol, they were nonetheless utter masters of it. Vestara recognized among their number Lord Takaris Yur, the Lord whose task it was to run the Sith Temple.

There were no members of the third level of leadership, the Lords, present on the dais, though Vestara had spotted them standing off to the side.


So what we’ve got is Workan>>>Sashal>Galaan~Katarn~Kyp.
IdrisianGraecus
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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:13 pm
Workan >>>> Kyp
ILS
ILS

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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:46 pm
Yeah I got mixed up with Workaan and Viun. Here are the tweets:


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Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Vote NOW! - Page 3 Screen16
xolthol
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on Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:37 pm
@ILS really interresting post. I will think about it and see whether or not this change my mind or if I need to made a rebuttal
Shioz
Shioz

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on Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:57 am
I give my vote for Krayt.
KingofBlades
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on Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:58 pm
@xolthol 

Even though Dooku can use the Force to increase his strength or change his tactical way to protect himself this didn't change the fact that by essence Makashi is weaker against power-based strike such which is something that Djem-So heavily emphasize on. 
The point that I made here was on the fact that you can easily explain the difference between Yoda and Anakin in their respective fact based on their fighting style.

You are correct that their fighting styles is a factor in their respective fights. Which is why I don't make the claim that base IH Anakin is superior to Yoda. However we can use the fight to approximate the gap between them nonetheless. The degree to which Anakin was dominating Dooku cannot be explained away by a mere form advantage. Form advantages are never more significant than a small to decent edge in combat. Anakin was outperforming Yoda to such a degree that even when you factor in Anakin's form advantage, he was still performing comparably.

I think that you also missed my point, I have used the style explanation to precise why Anakin seems to be able to trash so easily Dooku when he goes into Zonakin... And you seems to forget that when Anakin go into Zonakin the Dooku that he faced is already tired by the start against classic Anakin:
No I didn't forget that Dooku was fatigued for a portion of the fight. I would've mentioned it if it was relevant in regards to the Zonakin v Dooku part of the battle. Which it isn't.

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain
knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the
Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years
dropped away.
He lifted his blade, and beckoned."


Note that this occurs after the passage that mentions Dooku's fatigue and just prior to the part of the battle where Anakin goes Zonakin. So Dooku is basically fresh during the Zonakin part of the battle. In fact Dooku's stamina has been restored to such an extent that he feels safe enough to relax and enjoy the himself after he uses dun moch against Anakin. A decision that someone as intelligent as Dooku would not have done if his reserves were running dangerously low.

"Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness
coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he
should enjoy while he could."


So yeah fatigue was not a noticeable factor when Zonakin annihilated Dooku. Let's move on.

The quote itself can be interpreted as I already explained: he hadn't yet reach mastery of the Force but is trying to and Obi-Wan try to explained him that instead of focusing on mastery of the Force he must trained to reach mastery over himself.
Basically, you didn't proof anything, just giving you your interpretation because it fit your theory.

It makes far more logical sense. Obi Wan would not have felt it necessary to tell Anakin that mastering emotions is more important than mastering the force unless Anakin believed otherwise. Since Anakin believes that power and mastery are all that matters in attaining the rank of Jedi master, he would not feel upset if he did not feel his mastery and power were at the level of the council members. If he had yet to achieve mastery on par with the council members, like you claim, then he would not feel disrespected by still possessing the rank of Jedi Knight. 

Anakin could have reach the mastery of the Force up to some jedi councilor, that won't put him at the level of mastery of Yoda. Except if you think that all Jedi councilor have the same level of mastery (if so the burden of the proof is on you).

Obviously the degree of mastery depends on the council member. My point wasn't that Anakin is an equal to Yoda in terms of mastery. I was refuting the unfounded claim that is often thrown around that Anakin's force mastery is garbage by pointing out a source that says Anakin is at a councilor's level of mastery. Regardless Yoda's superior mastery won't help him against Anakin. Someone's mastery in the force directly correlates with how much of their raw power can be used applicably. Anakin's mastery(albeit below Yoda's) is sufficient enough to allow him to effectively use enough of his raw power to make him more applicably powerful than Yoda. Which is the actual subject of this conversation.  

Absolutely not. I wasn't talking about the quantity of Anakin abilities. I was talking about the fact that his abilitieS are unparalled IE: no one was able to equal them. Which is something really different than no one is as powerful in the force as him.

And this also perfectly works with what you have put on the table with what Skywalker tells Dooku: it wasn't his overall force power which have double but way more its powerS

Umm...wut? His abilities would not be unparalleled unless he was more powerful than everyone around him. I highly doubt Anakin literally meant that he was twice as powerful as he was during AotC( or TCW i guess? Trying to fit their fights in TCW into this novel which states they haven't fought since AotC is difficult). He was basically trying to say that he was far more powerful than he was the last time they meant. Just because Anakin said "powers" instead of "power" does not change his message. 

Here is the problem, Yoda knows that Anakin is a force prodigee, he also know what happend to people who falls to the Dark Side (eg: Dooku his old padawan) and must be aware of the current boost in power that they received. If you add more than half a millennium of experience as a jedi, you have someone who must have pretty accurate idea of the level of power of Anakin (taking into account that he also seen the records of the attack on the jedi temple). 
With all of this taking into account, if Anakin was really so much above Sidious (what you are trying to argue) do you really think that Yoda wouldn't have figure it? Its is very unlikely. 
The most that I can give you (I didn't said that I agree with this) is that Anakin is slightly above Sidious but absolutely not leagues above. 

You are correct that Yoda has seen the power increase a jedi experiences when he becomes a sith lord. However it took Dooku 15 years of studying the dark side to receive the power growth he did. The timespan between Anakin duel against Dooku and his assault on the jedi temple is a matter of days. Although Anakin is a greater prodigy than Dooku, there's no reason for Yoda to believe Anakin grew to any meaningful degree after only a day or so since he turned to the dark side based on the knowledge Yoda has available to him. I have also already pointed out that the footage of Anakin's assault on the jedi temple cannot be used by Yoda to ascertain the full depths of Vader's new power because of the ease with which he defeated Drallig. You wouldn't use a video of Usain Bolt walking to make any accurate conclusion in regards to how fast he is in an all out sprint. The degree of difficulty too easy for us to make any accurate conclusion. The same logic applies here. Anakin defeating Drallig as easily as he did makes it impossible to use the feat to make a conclusion about his full power. So no, Yoda's opinion cannot be considered accurate due to the reasons found above.
Wankious
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:31 am
Plagueis
IdrisianGraecus
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:35 am
@Wankious wrote:Plagueis
Why, Sinny? Why? Yoda scales comfortably above him, as does KFV.
Wankious
Wankious

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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:37 am
Oh, I didn't even check the list and assumed no.3 and 4 were Valk and Yoda lol

Also f*** KFV
EmperorCaedus
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:22 am
WalkingInCircles wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Hero of Tython
You mean the Outlander, right? HoT isn't even in the top 25.

As for KFV vs Yoda, each of the Lucas quotes are explicitly referring to Anakin just before he got walloped by Obi-Wan, indicating that it was unhindered Mustafar Vader that was their equal, not KFV. Not to mention that it's not uncommon for a Force user, especially one who falls to the Dark Side, to continue growing considerably even after their initial boost from their fall. Yoda and Sheev should still be > KFV.

Even though I changed my vote from the Outlander to Yoda, the order would be Yoda, Krayt Reborn, KFV, Darish Vol, then the Outlander. Quite frankly HoT(Outlander) doesn't get any recognition these days, when he was called Valkorion's biggest threat, and outright defeating him, yes he had help but you would still have to be extremely powerful not to get one-shotted by Valkorion.
Azronger
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:51 am
@EmperorCaedus Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:23 pm
i suppose this might be a very dumb question, but is this a top 15, or a top 5? im somewhat confused lol sorry
Azronger
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:43 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i suppose this might be a very dumb question, but is this a top 15, or a top 5? im somewhat confused lol sorry

Top Fifteen Tournament
EmperorCaedus
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on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:42 pm
@Azronger wrote:@EmperorCaedus Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?
I live in the U.S. I should've seen this forum sooner, I was on force power battles FB for a while
Deronn_Solo
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on Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:54 am
Switching my vote to Krayt upon reading 'Lok vs Maul thread.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

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on Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:02 am
how is krayt not above valk?
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LOTL

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on Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:13 am
Choosing the Tusken. Seems more convincing tbh. He has two nice points of scaling that are supported by feats and quotes
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