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CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 2:55 pm
TPM incarnations


R1: Their stamina levels are swapped—Jinn has Maul’s stamina, Maul has Jinn’s stamina


R2: Usual stamina levels, but Maul is only using a single saber
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 3:52 pm
R1: jinn since when it comes to technique and force powers they are basically equally matched .

R2: maul since jinn would tire sooner or later and without obi wan to back him up he would go down eventually .
ILS
ILS

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 4:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
You say stamina, but what you mean is Force reserves.

The level of combat Force users fight at - the level of speed and intensity over the extended period of time - would burn out the cardiovascular endurance of even a full-potential hybridised athlete who can draw on the combined feats of top martial artists, power lifters and ultramarathon runners. Things like age or being a hardier species than a human are tertiary edges at best (which is why they are only expounded on in relatively close fights, like Maul or Qui-Gon - they are close enough that it's worth mentioning a few slight edges to split hairs, opposed to Darsha Assant vs Maul where it was noted that Maul was just flat out more powerful and skilled).

Force users, including the likes of Qui-Gon, padawan Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto etc, are noted as sparring so intensely that they appear to be trying to murder each other, for hours at a time before becoming exhausted. Then in real fight scenarios you have examples like Mace Windu vs Sidious or Ulic vs Exar Kun where it's said their duels could last virtually forever because of how even they are and because their reserves are basically never-ending.

So with that in mind... the insistence that it is "Jinn's age" and "Jinn's stamina" that has him completely exhausted after a 30 second skirmish with Maul, and not the simple fact that Maul pushed him so hard in such a short amount of time that he completely drained his reserves, is asinine and overdone. It's an indication of a power disparity that Maul diminished Jinn's reserves (as well as Force-rage Kenobi's reserves) to exhaustion after 30 seconds-minutes of fighting at best, when in other situations, they can fight at an insane intensity for hours on end before they get tired. Meanwhile, Maul is still fresh and ready to go by the time his opponents are exhausted, which again, is an indication of Force reserves - Force power - not a difference in mundane cardiovascular endurance.

To answer the thread: Maul with Jinn's human stamina, and Jinn with Maul's zabrak stamina, doesn't make any difference to their Force reserves, so Maul wins again in similar fashion.
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 4:35 pm
i said it before and i will say it again :
sparring session means nothing in comparison to real combat scenario .

for example it is said plo koon once defeated yoda in sparring match ,
but we all know yoda going all out would blitz and murder him within a second .

real duels never last longer than few seconds or minutes even if combatants are very close to each other in power .

further more "apper to murder each other" that is just an appearence since jedi code forbids them to kill anyone in cold blood or anger .
even when it come to sidious B-team originaly wanted to arrest him rather than murder him in cold blood .
the real duel between kenobi and fisto if both are going for the kill would not last longer than few minutes at best .
there isn´t any real duel in PT / OT or new movies lasting longer than that .

jinn tire so fast because his age and stamina required him to draw much deeper in the force to be able to keep up the pace .
maul did not need to burn nearly as much of his energy and force reserves to augment his strenght/speed and stamina .
ergo if jinn was younger and had mauls physicall attributes he would not burn his reserves so fast hence he wins in reversed scenario .


Last edited by dark_globe on October 20th 2019, 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
ILS
ILS

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 4:51 pm
Doesn't address my point that stamina outside of Force augmentation is rendered irrelevant by the fact Jedi can spar intensely at superhuman speeds for hours on end. Jinn was tired out because of Maul's power, not because he is old.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0
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Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 4:54 pm
@ILS wrote:Doesn't address my point that stamina outside of Force augmentation is rendered irrelevant by the fact Jedi can spar intensely at superhuman speeds for hours on end. Jinn was tired out because of Maul's power, not because he is old.

@meatpants
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 4:55 pm
@ILS wrote:Doesn't address my point that stamina outside of Force augmentation is rendered irrelevant by the fact Jedi can spar intensely at superhuman speeds for hours on end. Jinn was tired out because of Maul's power, not because he is old.
i was just editing my post to adress this very point . you posted before i was able to finish .
in the contrary stamina does matter if one combatant needs to draw deeper into the force because of his physicall shortcomings than the other .
logicaly he burns out his reserves much faster (same as dooku vs anakin , dooku needed to spend all his reserves just to block anakins power blows because without the force he is an old man in his 80s whereas anakin is strong and athletic man in his physicall prime)
of course it also depend how strong your connection to the force is and how much reserves you have to spare .

once again sparring sessions are not nearly as intensive as the real duel to the dead .


Last edited by dark_globe on October 20th 2019, 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
ILS
ILS

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 5:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
jinn tire so fast because his age and stamina required him to draw much deeper in the force to be able to keep up the pace . wrote:maul did not need to burn nearly as much of his energy and force reserves to augment his strenght/speed and stamina .
ergo if jinn was younger and had mauls physicall attributes he would not burn his reserves so fast hence he wins in reversed scenario .
Firstly, source?

Second, the threshold for having to draw deeply on the Force to support the body's natural stamina has already been completely blown through and destroyed with mundane expressions of augmentation, like bursts of speed, massive leaps, sprinting, strength-augmented lightsaber clashing, etc. After those, sparring for hours at a superhuman intensity is completely otherworldly compared to what you would expect a normal person - even in the fictional context of SW - to be capable of before their body crumbles from the strain. Not to mention all the other aspects of using the Force which drain reserves like predicting the future, predicting your opponents moves, reading the surface thoughts of your opponent, concealing all of these aspects of yourself from your opponent, guarding against potential TK attacks/disarms and all of the mental concentration that goes into keeping all of that up.

So:

1. You are correct that because Jinn is older and of inferior constitution (Maul has two hearts and is younger, also in better physical shape anyway), he needs to draw on the Force more deeply than Maul to let his body keep up.

2. You are wrong that this actually matters in practice. If we are going to quantify how much physical stamina matters in lightsaber duels vs Force reserves, based on what I've detailed above, natural physical stamina probably accounts for about 1% of real-fight stamina, whereas reserves probably account for the other 99%. 


If what you are saying is true, that Qui-Gon's age is why he tired out, then how do you explain TPM Kenobi - who is repeatedly noted for being much younger and fitter than Qui-Gon - was also burnt out and exhausted in a similar time frame when he had Force rage to draw on against Maul?
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 5:10 pm
because TPM kenobi was inferior to jinn when it comes to force powers and as i said real duels are much more intense than sparring matches .
furthermore maul would be also superior to kenobi without a force augmentation ,
on top of that maul was also stronger with the force so he had more reserves to spend when it comes to augmentation compared to obi wan .

if two fighters are near equals like jinn and maul than it comes down to details and in such scenario:
stamina , age and physicall attributes indeed matter and come into play if otherwise they are more or less 50/50 when it comes to force powers and lightsaber skills
ILS
ILS

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 5:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@dark_globe wrote:because kenobi was inferior to jinn when it comes to force powers and as i said real duels are much more intense than sparring matches .
furthermore maul would be also superior to kenobi without a force augmentation ,
on top of that maul was also stronger with the force so he had more reserves to spend when it comes to augmentation compared to obi wan .
Clearly with Kenobi physicality has little to do with it. Maul returned more powerful in TCW and fought Kenobi for stretches of time similar to Force rage TPM Kenobi, and Kenobi wasn't tired out - he was still fresh. That's even though Maul is more powerful than before, and won't have any lactic acid building up in his metal legs, with the legs/glutes combined being the biggest muscle group in the human body leading to the highest amount of fatigue in a situation like a fight, this is a significant physical advantage for Maul. Kenobi is also past his physical prime at this point. So clearly, power counts for a hell of a lot more than sheer physical advantages.

It's as you say: Maul was stronger with the Force, so he had more reserves.

With that in mind, go ahead and explain to me why I should accept your premise that with Kenobi, his stamina depleted because of a Force power disparity, but with Jinn, it was because he had to "draw far more deeply on the Force to keep up with Maul" because of his age. Seems like a massive double standard to me.

If it was as you say, Dooku would have an extremely noticeable problem with the likes of Mace Windu (including while Dooku was a Jedi) and Anakin Skywalker. According to your premise, Dooku must have far deeper Force reserves than either because he keeps up with them despite being in much poorer physical condition due to his age, yet, we know for a fact both of them have greater reserves than Dooku - the only answer can be that Dooku's age, while noted, isn't actually very important in the end result.

Same with Yoda and Sidious - Yoda is 877 in RotS, and died of natural causes at 900. Sheev in turn was only in his sixties. If you compare the natural life expectancy of each respective species, Yoda was much closer to death than Sheev at the time of their duel. And from what we know in real life, the older you get, the closer to your natural death you get, your health becomes exponentially worse with each passing year. Yoda was in exponentially worse physical condition than Sheev in their duel, so it's as you say, he would have to draw on the Force "far more deeply" than Sidious just to be able to match him, meaning in terms of Force power, he must actually be more powerful than Sidious but simply hampered by his age... except we know that this is not the case, and that irrespective of their physical condition, they were virtually equal (or a very slight edge to Sheev) at the time of this duel (you can even make the case Yoda is a slightly better duelist, which is the the more physically taxing element of the fight, which also flies in the face of your theory).

Bottom line: attributing Jinn's exhaustion primarily to his age and ignoring the very apparent disparity in Force reserves between him and Maul is a fallacy that we choose not to commit anywhere else apart from this one fight, and it's very silly. 60 isn't even that old, and in the more modern depictions of the fight Jinn is only in his 40s in TPM as him being 60 doesn't really sync up timeline wise anymore.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 5:51 pm
The only way base physicals come into play is if your Fore reserves are gone. So this swap makes no difference and the fight ends in 30 seconds. Only ten of which is competitive 

If the meaning was to swap their force reserves? Either way, Maul's Teras Kasi and physical conditioning in addition to Jinns considerable (if comfortably inferior) force reserves still make this a nail biter. Maul not needing to amp himself as much as Jinn to compete will level the stamina gap.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 7:23 pm
ILS and Grey are right. Nothing changes.

If it’s Force reserves, I can see Qui-Gon winning. As mentioned above, physicals don’t mean that much until you’re running lower on reserves. Both men have somewhat comparable skill, so if their reserves in the Force were swapped, the old man would probably take it.
Meatpants
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Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 20th 2019, 7:27 pm
For round 2, fight draws on a little longer, Maul still wins.
Latham2000
Latham2000

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 21st 2019, 7:57 am
Maul eats him.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 21st 2019, 5:02 pm
Bro Force reserves or stamina you know what I mean stop being pains in my ass
Latham2000
Latham2000

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 21st 2019, 5:31 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:Bro Force reserves or stamina you know what I mean stop being pains in my ass

Bro we need you as a punching bag so accept the pains 😁
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 21st 2019, 6:24 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:
@CuckedCurry wrote:Bro Force reserves or stamina you know what I mean stop being pains in my ass

Bro we need Jinn as a punching bag so we can get on that Fisto, Tiin & Kolar wank 😁

Wholeheartedly agree
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

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on October 21st 2019, 7:41 pm
ILS ragdolling.
O-Siri
O-Siri

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on October 22nd 2019, 1:06 am
Kit vs Kenobi or Ulic vs Kun are more the exceptions rather than the rule when it comes to stamina. Chalk it up to different authors but most of the time a Force user can only fight for a few minutes at max effort before seriously tiring. You can still give a great performance and be competitive in a long battle, in spite of the fatigue of course, but very few can keep fighting at peak capacity for more than a few minutes at max effort. 

Bane as a neophyte can sprint full throttle for miles without breathing hard but unless you are using an energy-efficient style a few minutes of all-out combat which is not only physically draining but also mentally taxing, will exhaust even the DoE incarnations of Bane and Zannah quickly:


Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting: particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru.

On Geonosis, most of the Jedi were exhausted before they were rescued, and it was only about four minutes in film time, though it might have been a little longer in real-time it obviously wasn't anywhere close to hours, and at least one of them, Luminara is a Soresu master, and of course Kit Fisto was there as well. 

AotC Script wrote:
MACE WINDU, OBI-WAN, ANAKIN, PADME and an exhausted group of about TWENTY JEDI stand in the center of the arena surrounded by a ring of BATTLE DROIDS.
The bloodied sand around them is strewn with the bodies of DEAD GEONOSIANS, SHATTERED DROIDS and JEDI.

Even Mace Windu was noted to be exhausted in the AotC novel:


AotC SN wrote:"More Jedi went down under the sheer weight of the laser barrage. Less than half of them were still standing. “Limited choices,” Ki-Adi-Mundi said to the exhausted and bloody Mace Windu."

Kenobi and Dooku were tiring before the duel on the Invisible Hand even began to pick up momentum. 

Age and physical condition absolutely matter even with all your Force reserves intact. Yoda was noted to have slowed slightly in the years Mace knew him. Dooku's tiring despite using an energy-efficient form was attributed to his not being "a young man after all" and noted the dark energies that powered him only went so far to nullify the age gap. Bane withered by age and dark side degradation is the merest fraction slower and less strong than he used to be, despite merely getting warmed up in a training routine. 

Also, the Mace vs Sidious example is likely hyperbole(hyperbole in a Matthew Stover novel, no way!) Sidious was breathing heavily after losing his lightsaber:

RotS SN wrote:Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, and face lined with exhaustion.

Even it was literal, it probably had something to do with a mutual looping effect of Vaapad, with both drawing energy from the heated exchange rather than individual Force reserves. Both have certainly been tried on more than one occasion. Mace on Geonosis, Sidious against Maul and Savage, and both in RotS.

All that said, however, Maul is still more skilled and athletic than Jinn and he was comfortably outmaneuvering him even when all three of them were relatively fresh. Rage at the weakness of being exhausted also can help to offset fatigue, ala Hypori when he was at his absolute worst condition. He should still beat Jinn convincingly even with one stat reversed. 

Round 2 is basically the same as what happened in canon, except shorter as Maul isn't injured.
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 29th 2019, 3:53 am
@ILS wrote:Clearly with Kenobi physicality has little to do with it. Maul returned more powerful in TCW and fought Kenobi for stretches of time similar to Force rage TPM Kenobi, and Kenobi wasn't tired out - he was still fresh. That's even though Maul is more powerful than before, and won't have any lactic acid building up in his metal legs, with the legs/glutes combined being the biggest muscle group in the human body leading to the highest amount of fatigue in a situation like a fight, this is a significant physical advantage for Maul. Kenobi is also past his physical prime at this point. So clearly, power counts for a hell of a lot more than sheer physical advantages.

this logic of yours fails since 35 yo man is still far away from being past his physical prime for it to be an issue
(more so if he is constantly training and fighting) . some men even reach their physical prime betweet 30-35 years of age .
kenobi also grew significantly more powerful from TPM all the way to the TCW both as a duelist and as a force user
hence kenobi was able to keep up longer even without his rage amp and not burning so much of his force reserves in the process

kenobi was not mauls equal in TPM .

@ILS wrote:With that in mind, go ahead and explain to me why I should accept your premise that with Kenobi, his stamina depleted because of a Force power disparity, but with Jinn, it was because he had to "draw far more deeply on the Force to keep up with Maul" because of his age. Seems like a massive double standard to me.

it is not double standard at all .
kenobi was younger and had far better stamina and physicals than jinn in TPM but he was inferior force user to both maul and jinn .
so with kenobi his physicals are not an issue , his force disparity is .
with jinn he is roughly as powerful as maul but he is physically inferior to both maul and kenobi .
and since maul is his equal in everything else physical stats come into play .

@ILS wrote:If it was as you say, Dooku would have an extremely noticeable problem with the likes of Mace Windu (including while Dooku was a Jedi) and Anakin Skywalker. According to your premise, Dooku must have far deeper Force reserves than either because he keeps up with them despite being in much poorer physical condition due to his age, yet, we know for a fact both of them have greater reserves than Dooku - the only answer can be that Dooku's age, while noted, isn't actually very important in the end result.

dooku died because of him being exhausted after fighting enraged anakin .
dooku was keeping up because untill anakin taped into his rage
dooku was superior force user to both anakin and obi wan , the gap was even greater in TCW or AoTC
(yet even AoTC dooku was tired after fighting inferior versions of obi wan and anakin because they were both young men in their physical primes
so despite them being far inferior as force users they managed to tire dooku in a duel because he had to draw far deeper into his reserves to keep up ,
because without his augmentation they would murder him in seconds -
which anakin did eventually when he matched/surpased dooku as a force user in his zonakin state - he simply removed dookus edge
and without that edge it was basically old man vs enraged young warrior in his prime) .


@ILS wrote:Same with Yoda and Sidious - Yoda is 877 in RotS, and died of natural causes at 900. Sheev in turn was only in his sixties. If you compare the natural life expectancy of each respective species, Yoda was much closer to death than Sheev at the time of their duel. And from what we know in real life, the older you get, the closer to your natural death you get, your health becomes exponentially worse with each passing year. Yoda was in exponentially worse physical condition than Sheev in their duel, so it's as you say, he would have to draw on the Force "far more deeply" than Sidious just to be able to match him, meaning in terms of Force power, he must actually be more powerful than Sidious but simply hampered by his age... except we know that this is not the case, and that irrespective of their physical condition, they were virtually equal (or a very slight edge to Sheev) at the time of this duel (you can even make the case Yoda is a slightly better duelist, which is the the more physically taxing element of the fight, which also flies in the face of your theory).

this is a bit different , they are established tier 9s : two most powerful force users to date (save valkorion) .
they are so powerful with the force that little else matter anymore and
their reserves and level of augmentation are also far greater than typicall tier 7 or 8 fighters .
yet even in this fight when yoda and sidious struggled with their lightning/tutaminis confrontation sidious got a bit lucky
(because yodas physical inferiority (smaller stature) pushed him a bit further to the edge of the pod on which they were standing and he felt from it as a result .

@ILS wrote:Bottom line: attributing Jinn's exhaustion primarily to his age and ignoring the very apparent disparity in Force reserves between him and Maul is a fallacy that we choose not to commit anywhere else apart from this one fight, and it's very silly. 60 isn't even that old, and in the more modern depictions of the fight Jinn is only in his 40s in TPM as him being 60 doesn't really sync up timeline wise anymore.
 
bottom line it is not fallacy at all .
Meatpants
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Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op) Empty Re: Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

on October 29th 2019, 12:34 pm
If it’s force reserves, Jinn. If it’s age, still Maul.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on October 29th 2019, 6:47 pm
DG still reaching so far he's gonna trip? Good to see nothing's changed. 

OT:

ILS and Grey are right. Nothing changes.

If it’s Force reserves, I can see Qui-Gon winning. As mentioned above, physicals don’t mean that much until you’re running lower on reserves. Both men have somewhat comparable skill, so if their reserves in the Force were swapped, the old man would probably take it.
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