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BreakofDawn
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on October 22nd 2019, 7:52 am
AP is getting paranoid.
Cheth
Cheth

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on October 23rd 2019, 9:40 am
Spoiler:
Almost don't want to see this debate since it'll lessen the wank for at least one of the characters
xolthol
xolthol

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on October 27th 2019, 10:49 pm
@IdrisianGraecus When will you make your opener ?
IdrisianGraecus
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on October 28th 2019, 6:48 am
I’m fairly busy with school for a bit. Maybe a week or two?
ILS
ILS

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on November 5th 2019, 9:31 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Gonna have to talk to Ant about getting that moderator rank removed because you clearly abuse your position to support the narrative and agenda you've been slowly pushing to drive your opponents off of the site with blatant hostility.
Yeah it would be a fucking travesty if it came out that one of the moderators were doing that imo SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 3366773415
IdrisianGraecus
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on November 9th 2019, 10:54 am
Section I: Accolades:



So, to begin, I’m going to review some of Meetra Surik’s accolades, which are more impressive than I originally thought.

Master Kavar in Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"You always had deep connections to the Force. I am glad to see that it is once again your ally. When I first sparred with you during your training as a Padawan, I could tell that you were different. And it wasn't just your strong connection to the Force.'



The Old Republic: Revan wrote:"I was told you had been cut off from the Force, but I can sense its power in you. I always knew you had great potential, but you have become far greater than I could ever have imagined."



Lord Scourge in Star Wars the Old Republic wrote:"For a time I worked with the greatest of your Jedi heroes: Revan and the Jedi Exile."


This one especially is rather impressive, given that Scourge is said to have killed hundreds and Jedi and Sith, specifically those that were too powerful for the Emperor to allow to live.

Star Wars the Old Republic: Codex Entry: Lord Scourge wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.



The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.




It's also worth noting that only the most powerful Jedi are said to be able to return as force ghosts, and Meetra is having done so, fits the category. 



Star Wars the Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Jedi Entity wrote:Some powerful Force-sensitives emerge from nothingness after their demise, appearing as ghostly figures that can communicate with the living. Among the Sith, such apparitions are fearsome spirits who refuse to accept their natural end; their peaceful Jedi counterparts are rare, reluctantly deferring their rest and reaching out to the living only when dreadful events are imminent. The Jedi entity’s warnings, therefore, are taken very seriously by the Jedi Order.




Just from a few accolades we can conclude that Meetra Surik is definitely one of the more powerful Jedi, more powerful than almost anybody Scourge has ever seen in his 300+ years of life, and powerful enough to live on past death as a spirit. 


Section II: Force Ability


Meetra's accolades aren't built on fluff, they're backed up by extraordinary feats, and in this section, I'll explore a few of the more force-related ones.


Force Enlightenment is an extremely rare Force power learned after extensive light side study which enables one to use augmentative powers to the highest level.Having learned Force Enlightenment on Dantooine, the Meetrais able to use it to call upon several defensive and augmentative aspects of the Force at once, all to the highest level, making her completely shielded by the Force:


Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The holocron spoke of a way of calling upon several defensive aspects of the Force all at once, a form of sudden enlightenment - it is possible that when active, a Jedi would be almost completely shielded by the Force."




Another ability Meetra has mastered is the use of Sever Force. Sever Force (is exactly what it sounds like), is an ability Meetra has a certain aptitude for, it's a talent of hers, so to speak. Meetra's use of sever force is so potent, that on Malachor V, when the Mass Shadow Generators went off, in order to prevent herself from certain death, Meetra instinctively used Sever Force upon herself, ridding herself of her force connection to a degree never seen before, and never seen after, in the likes of Ulic Qel-Droma, and Jacen Solo—Meetra makes herself a Wound in the Force.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"To hear the Force over such pain... it is not possible. It was too much for any Jedi to endure... and it is a wonder that you did not die there when thousands perished, all those you had fought with and struggled with. You cut yourself off, because you had to if you were to survive."


[...]


"In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them. But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force."



Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:The disturbance in the Force is so great that the Jedi Exile instinctively severs herself from the Force before the backlash rips her to pieces.



Beyond Sever Force, Meetra also has an aptitude for the use of telekinesis. 

For example, on a "colossal geyser of dark side energy" Meetra can use Force Wave to stun Traya's floating lightsabers, which are being controlled by Kreia herself, and therefore, Meetra is literally "out-TKing" Kreia on a massive nexus.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide wrote:Force Wave can stun Kreia's floating lightsabers.

The nexus of Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.

Meetra is also capable of the use of multiple Force Forms, specifically those of Force Channel, Potency, Affinity, and Mastery. Mastery specifically is noted to be one of the greatest techniques a Jedi Master can learn, and is considered the pinnacle of Force mastery. It can create the illusion of one being more powerful in the Force by increasing the duration of their Force powers, but the focus required can quickly drain Force energy and leave the user vulnerable to Force attack:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery. Now watch carefully. This subtle technique enhances the duration of many Force powers at your disposal. However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack."


"This is among one of the greatest techniques of the Jedi Master - yet when one has seen all that you have, it is such a simple thing, you may wonder why you did not notice it before. Do you feel it gathering within you - now, slowly, let it out... slowly - this technique allows you to maintain your Force powers for longer than normal, though the energy and discipline required is great."

Section III: Martial Skill


Meetra's martial ability is compared to the likes of Revan by Canderous Ordo:


Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi, but now there's you. With all our martial training, battles and ethics, even our greatest warriors are no match for you."



Meetra also masters all 7 forms of saber combat, and her mastery of Juyo specifically is amazing, given that it takes mastery of multiple forms, in addition to the fact that only the most skilled force wielders can learn it.


Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith LordsOnly high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders."

Most impressive about Meetra's skill in combat however, is perhaps the fact that she manages to defeat Kreia, alternatively known as Darth Traya, on a ridiculously powerful dark side nexus, despite Traya's superiority in raw strength. 

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.

Traya is also vastly impressive, being able to dominate the likes of Zez Kai Ell, Vrook Lamar, and Kavar without a gesture, and any one of them is more powerful than Bastila on the Star Forge. Bastila is said to be able to give Revan a "frantic" fight. 

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:"Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."

So with this, we are left with this scaling chain. 

Meetra >>>> Malachor tired Meetra > Malachor Traya >>>> Traya >>>>> The three masters, who individually are > SF Bastila > giving a frantic battle to KOTOR Revan. KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>>> Malak >> Kun, etc, etc. 

Section IV: Concluding Remarks


Alright, this concludes my opener for this SS (which I frankly rushed for no reason), and... this section is entirely unnecessary. 

@xolthol: Your move
xolthol
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on November 9th 2019, 4:02 pm
@IdrisianGraecus I will try to write my own opener in the coming week. And I really like your last section... so destructive  SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 815462187
xolthol
xolthol

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on November 13th 2019, 3:04 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 Latest?cb=20080414033957





*SCALING OF SUNRIDER*


In this part, I will give you a brief view of Nomi Sunrider power in order to understand that she scales vastly above the Jedi Exile aka Meetra Surik.

~War on Oderon~


Latest addition to the (in)famous MMORPG Star Wars The Old Republic, the planet Oderon have an ancient history of fights between two powerful factions. In Tales of the Jedi (TotJ) you can read the confrontation between the Beast Lords and the forces of Queen Amanoa. 

The Beast have decided to attack Iziz, capital city of Oderon and have gathered an insanely powerful army [1] , we are talking about hundred of Beast Lords with tons of fighter each, this is a really powerful army.

Then, understanding that she will loose the battle, Queen Amanoa, decided to use the dark side to a massive scaled in order to defeat the army attacking her capital. She changes the tide of the battle in an impressive manners [2] . As you can see, she is able to control the beast that are used by her ennemies, to made the soldiers sick and phased,...  This is clearly an impressive feat.

But this feat is clearly surpassed by the action of Master Arca Jeth, who when arriving abve the Battlefield was able to counter the effect of the Dark Side and give the Beast Lords troops the victory [3]  [4] . And even more impressive, on the very heart of the palace, he was even able to clean the dark power that was here [5] , showing an absolute superiority over Queen Amanoa powers. And take into account that all of this was done on a really powerful DS nexus that still subsisted after the death of Queen Amanoa[*].

At the end of the day we have: Master Arca Jeth >>> Queen Amanoa > Mind dominating hundred of thousands of beasts and their riders.

[*] "[the city] is still permeated with it [the dark side of the force]" "Did you feel it?The Darkness... had amazing strenght"

~Freedon Nadd Uprising~


After this fierce battle, the war on Oderon have come to an end but not the fight against the Dark Side. Indeed, in the husband of Queen Amanoa, King Ommin is still alive and also use the dark side of the force, trained by no one else than Freedon Nadd. 

And his power allow him to defeat easily master Arca Jeth, putting him under a dark side magic that completely stun him [6] . This is clearly an overwhelming victory for the king that just stomp the jedi master. And Ommin is able to keep Arca Jeth under his control with the Dark Side for an extended period of time [7] .

Despite his impressive display of power, when the final confrontation with Ulic Qel-Droma, even though the start of the fight gives him an early upper hand [8] , the jedi knight and futur sith lord, Ulic Qel-Droma is able to bypass this attack and to defeat the dark king [9] , showing his impressive force power.

As a result we have that Ulic > King Ommin >>> Arca Jeth.

~Dark Lord of the Sith~


Ulic Qel-Droma, willing to defeat the sith, decided to infiltrate them by going into the Krath system where the Keto's cousin where leading thanks to their dark power. During the time here, Ulic after being captured have been realeased by Aleema Keto (who fell in love with him) in order to defeat her cousin Satal Keto.

Following the defeat of Satal, Aleema and Ulic become used to trained against each other but it clearly seems that Aleema had the upper hand and by a pretty good margin [10] .

But this same Aleema Keto, while in a meditation chamber (IE: insanely amp), was literraly trashed by Nomi Sunrider during a mind fight [11] [12] . As you can see, Nomi Sunrider scaled insanely above Aleema Keto.

~Full scaling chain~


Well, lets sum-up this scaling chain we have that:

Prime Nomi > Nomi >>> Amp!Aleema >> Aleema >> Ulic > King Ommin >>>Arca Jeth >>>Queen Amanoa > Mind dominating hundreds of thousands of beast and their riders, up to the poin that they cannot fight.


This is an insanely good showing for Nomi, putting her leagues above anything that Meetra Surik have.


*CLEANING THE MESS AROUND MEETRA*


Speaking of the devil, lets correct what my opponent say about Surik.

~Irrelevant accolades~


My opponent provide four quotes that are (from his own statement) "impressive". A quick analysis will show that they are in reality irrelevant to this fight.


  • Master Kavar quote: this quote only tell us that Meetra have a strong connection with the Force. Something not really impressive, this is a vague statement that did not prove anything. Nomi have similar quotes 

The Official Star Wars Fact File 67 wrote:Even at an early age, Nomi Sunrider was recognized as having an enormous Force potential.


  • The quote from Revan just show that Revan have misjudged her, nothing really impressive/relevant once again.
  • The praise from Scourge could be great but this guy never meet Nomi Sunrider so this quote is irelevant -not to mention the fact that Scourge never faced a Grand Master of the Jedi Order, something that Nomi become-
  • Surik was able to come back as a force ghost... good for her, but keep in the mind that a force sever Ulic was able to become one with the Force to and we have that Nomi is way above a force sever Ulic.


Despite having accolades, none of them are relevant to this fight and can be use as a proof of the Jedi Exile power in regard to Nomi Sunrider.

~Impressiv force abilities ? ~


which enables one to use augmentative powers to the highest level

I don't know where you find this... the only things that is explained about Force Enlightenment is that you are completely shielded by the Force. While this seems a powerful technique, I highly doubt that this way better than a good force barrier. If you think so, you need to proove it.

Another ability Meetra has mastered is the use of Sever Force. 
The only thing that we have here is the fact that in a really particular situation -just before being hit by the burst from the Mass Shadows Generator- the Jedi Exile was able to sever herself -not anyone else- from the Force in a particular way. The simple fact that she cannot do this at will show that this isn't something in her classic state abilities.
In a classic fight, she won't be able to achieve this. We aren't even sure that she can severe the Force of other Force users while we know that Nomi is able to do this -cf what she did to Ulic Qel-Droma-. Once again this isn't relevant in this fight.

Meetra is literally "out-TKing" Kreia on a massive nexus.
Well knowing that Traya have been describe as more powerful than the Jedi Exile -you provide us the quote-, it is clear that Darth Traya shouldn't work at her full power while being "out TK" by Meetra. Clearly this feat is absolutely unquantifiable and thus we cannot scale the Exile from it. 

Meetra is also capable of the use of multiple Force Forms, specifically those of Force Channel, Potency, Affinity, and Mastery

As you pointed, this method while powerful let the user vulnerable to Force attack. If Meetra use this techniques, she will just become more vulnerable than before and therefore will be easily slaughter by Nomi who is the superior Force user here.

What you have provided as "feats" in term of Force power isn't relevant to this fight and did not show any sort of superiority over Nomi.

~Absurd Scaling Chain and Co~


First of all I want to address this scaling chain which is just absurd:

Meetra >>>> Malachor tired Meetra > Malachor Traya >>>> Traya >>>>> The three masters, who individually are > SF Bastila > giving a frantic battle to KOTOR Revan. KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>>> Malak >> Kun, etc, etc

I will just focus on two points that are essential to understand up to which point this scaling chain is just a non-sense.

1°) "KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>>> Malak >> Kun" Indeed this is a true scaling chain but with absolutely no link with the previous one (and zero relevance to the debate), except if you are trying to show that Meetra > KOTOR Revan or Meetra > SF Malak or Meetra > Malak or even Meetra > Kun... but you didn't prove any of this. You just said that SF Bastila give a good fight to KOTOR Revan which is true but don't transfere as any form of superiority over this other characters. 

2°) "The three masters, who individually are > SF Bastila" This scaling isn't substantiate by anything. The quote used to scale this jedi masters is the following:
Bastilla Shan (SF AMP) wrote:The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters
and is heavily link to this quote
Bastilla wrote:Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.

The main problems here are:

  • the fact that Dantoine was attacked by Darth Malak who slaughtered a good portion of its jedi inhabitant. The jedi masters who survived have escaped this planet and you have no proof that they come back.
  • some jedi masters who actually come back die on Katar killed by Darth Nihlius


So you know that A=(most powerful Jedi masters) and B=(three jedi masters killed by Traya). Both A and B belongs to C=(Jedi Council). But you never prooved that A=C or that B belongs to A. So clearly this scaling chain is not valid.


I could continue to destroy this false scaling all the day but I think this is more than enought for anyone to understand that the remains of this scaling chain did not put Surik anywhere near Sunrider.

Now lets focus on the remaining points: Surik's master skills and her defeat of Traya.

Meetra's martial ability is compared to the likes of Revan by Canderous Ordo

I can concede you that Meetra is a skilled lightsaber duelist, but there is absolutely no way for you to go from the Canderous quote to any sort of parity with Revan. The fact that she, like Revan, was able to defeat the best of Ordo warrior is just a proof that she is more powerful than this warrior, not that she is the equal to Revan.

Most impressive about Meetra's skill in combat however, is perhaps the fact that she manages to defeat Kreia, alternatively known as Darth Traya, on a ridiculously powerful dark side nexus, despite Traya's superiority in raw strength
Indeed, this is an interresting feat for the Jedi Exile, defeating a more powerful ennemy (we have no proof that out of the nexus, Traya is more powerful than Surik). However, I hardly see how this can give Meetra the edge over Nomi which scaled far above anything that Traya have shown so far. 

*A FIGHT ? A SLAUGHTER*


Nomi Sunrider is just another league from Meetra Surik. While this latter could be potentially seen as the superior duelist, Nomi force power scaled her just way too high for the Jedi Exile. 
The only possible issue to this fight is Meetra being ragdolled by the sheer power of Nomi or even mind-dominating. 
Nomi will just win fair and simple.

@IdrisianGraecus Your move Sir !
xolthol
xolthol

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on November 13th 2019, 3:07 am
KingofBlades
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on November 13th 2019, 4:15 am
Good post Xolthol.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 13th 2019, 10:01 am
thats.... actually really good. i personally saw meetra winning for sure at first.. idk now. well, she does have other stuff, aside from just power, so ill leave it at that.
Cheth
Cheth

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on November 13th 2019, 1:11 pm
Great post Xolthol, makes me dread your counter against me
Underachiever599
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on November 15th 2019, 2:04 am
Good post, Xolthol! I can still definitely see this debate going either way, but there's some great counters in there.
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on November 15th 2019, 3:57 am
Xolthol snapping
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on November 16th 2019, 7:32 am
Xolthol
Latest addition to the (in)famous MMORPG Star Wars The Old Republic, the planet Oderon have an ancient history of fights between two powerful factions. In Tales of the Jedi (TotJ) you can read the confrontation between the Beast Lords and the forces of Queen Amanoa. 

The Beast have decided to attack Iziz, capital city of Oderon and have gathered an insanely powerful army [1] , we are talking about hundred of Beast Lords with tons of fighter each, this is a really powerful army.

Then, understanding that she will loose the battle, Queen Amanoa, decided to use the dark side to a massive scaled in order to defeat the army attacking her capital. She changes the tide of the battle in an impressive manners [2] . As you can see, she is able to control the beast that are used by her ennemies, to made the soldiers sick and phased,...  This is clearly an impressive feat.

But this feat is clearly surpassed by the action of Master Arca Jeth, who when arriving abve the Battlefield was able to counter the effect of the Dark Side and give the Beast Lords troops the victory [3]   [4] . And even more impressive, on the very heart of the palace, he was even able to clean the dark power that was here [5] , showing an absolute superiority over Queen Amanoa powers. And take into account that all of this was done on a really powerful DS nexus that still subsisted after the death of Queen Amanoa[*].

At the end of the day we have: Master Arca Jeth >>> Queen Amanoa > Mind dominating hundred of thousands of beasts and their riders.
[*]





Alright, so while this is seemingly impressive, you must understand that Amanoa isn’t TP dominating her foes, she’s just sowing disorder in their ranks, which makes this feet less impressive. And while Arca, yes is able to defeat Amanoa, she’s not dominating anybody, just, you know, sowing disorder. Also, the text says “Hundreds of beast lord”, citation for each of them having thousands of people?




Xolthol
Ulic Qel-Droma, willing to defeat the sith, decided to infiltrate them by going into the Krath system where the Keto's cousin where leading thanks to their dark power. During the time here, Ulic after being captured have been realeased by Aleema Keto (who fell in love with him) in order to defeat her cousin Satal Keto.

Following the defeat of Satal, Aleema and Ulic become used to trained against each other but it clearly seems that Aleema had the upper hand and by a pretty good margin [10] .

But this same Aleema Keto, while in a meditation chamber (IE: insanely amp), was literraly trashed by Nomi Sunrider during a mind fight [11] [12] . As you can see, Nomi Sunrider scaled insanely above Aleema Keto





So… Nomi wins in a  TP battle? Good job. So your entire point is saying TP victories scale you above somebody? Well that’s ludicrous. We’d have a lot of really weird scaling chains if that were the case. Furthermore, nothing says that Nomi stomped Aleema, moreso just disrupted her, which frustrated her and all. 





Xolthol
Well, lets sum-up this scaling chain we have that:

Prime Nomi > Nomi >>> Amp!Aleema >> Aleema >> Ulic > King Ommin >>>Arca Jeth >>>Queen Amanoa > Mind dominating hundreds of thousands of beast and their riders, up to the poin that they cannot fight.


This is an insanely good showing for Nomi, putting her leagues above anything that Meetra Surik have.





Haha, no.  As I’ve pointed out, Amanoa didn’t TP dominate them, and hundreds of thousands is extremely dubious. Aleema being >> Ulic is extremely suspect, and sparring matches don’t reflect all out combat. Nomi being able to defeat Aleema (while granted, Aleema had an amp) in a TP contest doesn’t show superiority overall, and unless you’re trying to argue that Nomi is going to mind dominate Meetra right off the bat, your argument is just… false.




Xolthol

*CLEANING THE MESS AROUND MEETRA*


Speaking of the devil, lets correct what my opponent say about Surik.





Ouch, xolthol, I thought we were friends. That hurts a lot.




Xolthol
My opponent provide four quotes that are (from his own statement) "impressive". A quick analysis will show that they are in reality irrelevant to this fight.



  • Master Kavar quote: this quote only tell us that Meetra have a strong connection with the Force. Something not really impressive, this is a vague statement that did not prove anything. Nomi have similar quotes 


The Official Star Wars Fact File 67 wrote:
Even at an early age, Nomi Sunrider was recognized as having an enormous Force potential.





Fact Files are written in-universe, by New Republic historians. They are extremely suspect. For example, one says that Darth Bane (as of PoD) is the most powerful sith lord in history up until this point, which is quite obviously, false.



xoltholThe praise from Scourge could be great but this guy never meet Nomi Sunrider so this quote is irelevant -not to mention the fact that Scourge never faced a Grand Master of the Jedi Order, something that Nomi become-




Oh dear god, this? Are you seriously saying that an accolade is irrelevant because Scourge never met Nomi? What kind of logic is that? Are you saying that Scourge saying Revan was one of the most powerful people he’d ever met isn’t valid for him being above (say) Ulic because Scourge never met Ulic? Like what even…?  Also, Scourge is said to (in a quote I cited in the previous post) be powerful enough that the Dark Council fears him, and he’s killed all of the Jedi and Sith the Emperor felt were becoming too powerful--those that may someday challenge him. If people like Malgus, who manages to utterly dominate Satele Shan, a Jedi Master, and ransack the Jedi Temple, and defeat the likes of Ven Zallow is sub-Dark Council (Empire gives rank based on power), and the Dark Council fears Scourge, it can be inferred that Scourge has seen people with significant power, relative to those of a Grandmaster of the order. Furthermore, the title of GM is just a title. Like in the FOTJ for example, Kenth Hamner being Grandmaster in Luke’s absence doesn’t make him more powerful than Kyle, Corran, Kyp, Saba, etc. Grandmaster is a title bestowed upon the wisest, or most fit to lead, not the most powerful, you’re confusing Jedi and Sith Xolthol.




Xolthol

~Impressiv force abilities ? ~


which enables one to use augmentative powers to the highest level

I don't know where you find this... the only things that is explained about Force Enlightenment is that you are completely shielded by the Force. While this seems a powerful technique, I highly doubt that this way better than a good force barrier. If you think so, you need to proove it.





Well, it’s in-game logic. Force Enlightenment auto-uses all augmentative abilities at the highest level.




KOTOR II: Official Prima Game Guide
You learn this power on Dantooine (light side). This will activate the highest-ranking power of the following [..] Speed powers, Armor powers, and Valor powers. These three Force powers should be cast at a reduced cost. Light side power. Restricted by armor.


So as you can see, Meetra auto uses speed, armor (barrier) and valor (basically poison resistance and aug) 



@Xolthol wrote:
The only thing that we have here is the fact that in a really particular situation -just before being hit by the burst from the Mass Shadows Generator- the Jedi Exile was able to sever herself -not anyone else- from the Force in a particular way. The simple fact that she cannot do this at will show that this isn't something in her classic state abilities.
In a classic fight, she won't be able to achieve this. We aren't even sure that she can severe the Force of other Force users while we know that Nomi is able to do this -cf what she did to Ulic Qel-Droma-. Once again this isn't relevant in this fight.


How so? Nomi also did this in a stupidly specific situation. Ulic was consumed with grief at the fact that he killed his brother Cay, that he just went up and surrendered to the Jedi, and Nomi then severed him. How is this just a specific situation? It's a purely instinctual reaction.



@Xolthol wrote:
As you pointed, this method while powerful let the user vulnerable to Force attack. If Meetra use this techniques, she will just become more vulnerable than before and therefore will be easily slaughter by Nomi who is the superior Force user here.

What you have provided as "feats" in term of Force power isn't relevant to this fight and did not show any sort of superiority over Nomi.


Ah... no. 



1. Nomi is not the superior force user by any means. 

2. Even if she was, I'm merely pointing out the fact that Meetra was able to learn force mastery, something only the most powerful of masters can do. I'm not saying she'll use it mid-battle. 

3. Force Channel or potency don't make you more vulnerable. Potency increases the power of your attacks, channel lets you use them with more ease.




@Xolthol wrote:The three masters, who individually are > SF Bastila" This scaling isn't substantiate by anything. The quote used to scale this jedi masters is the following:
Bastilla Shan (SF AMP) wrote:The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters
and is heavily link to this quote
Bastilla wrote:Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.

The main problems here are:

  • the fact that Dantoine was attacked by Darth Malak who slaughtered a good portion of its jedi inhabitant. The jedi masters who survived have escaped this planet and you have no proof that they come back.

  • some jedi masters who actually come back die on Katar killed by Darth Nihlius




So you know that A=(most powerful Jedi masters) and B=(three jedi masters killed by Traya). Both A and B belongs to C=(Jedi Council). But you never prooved that A=C or that B belongs to A. So clearly this scaling chain is not valid.

What the hell even? These are the masters that survived the purge, they are evidently the most powerful. Any of them are capable of teaching Meetra Juyo, or Force Mastery, techniques "only the most powerful masters" can learn. 



Alright, and to prove this even further, I'll link an argument that you should be intimately familiar with.


@MasterCilghal wrote:What makes this feat so impressive is the fact that all of those three Jedi masters have great accolades in regards to their power in the force and share a particularly impressive feat. 
First of all, Kavar is noted to possess particularly advanced force powers: 
Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.

[size=13]Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide
[/size]
 In KOTOR 1, the three Jedi are noted to be some of the most powerful in the order:
"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place."

[size=13]Source: Knights of the Old Republic
[/size]
Later, after Kreia drains them with the force, she notes it had to be done because she could not have let such powerful Jedi masters live:
"Regardless.... it had to be done. To have such powerful Jedi still live, still be felt in the Force even on dead worlds as they had chosen, was a threat that had to be ended."

[size=13]Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
[/size]
Lastly, in what is possibly their most impressive feat, they are implied to have rebuilt the Jedi enclave on Dantooine in a short amount of time, which had been destroyed by Darth Malak during the Jedi civil war

Furthermore, even if not all of them are council members, why does that exclude them from being among the most powerful? That makes absolutely no sense? Jedi put people on their council based on wisdom, not raw power. Otherwise Anakin-goddamn-Skywalker wouldn't have been pissed off in the first place. You keep making this mistake.




@Xolthol wrote:1°) "KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>>> Malak >> Kun" Indeed this is a true scaling chain but with absolutely no link with the previous one (and zero relevance to the debate), except if you are trying to show that Meetra > KOTOR Revan or Meetra > SF Malak or Meetra > Malak or even Meetra > Kun... but you didn't prove any of this. You just said that SF Bastila give a good fight to KOTOR Revan which is true but don't transfere as any form of superiority over this other characters. 

I'm saying that Meetra scales vastly above giving a frantic fight to KOTOR Revan. To understand this better, let me provide you a definition for the term.


Dictionary.com wrote:desperate or wild with excitement, passion, fear, pain, etc.; frenzied.

I'm saying that because Bastila is able to give Revan such a good fight, and Meetra scales so vastly above that, Meetra should at least be able to give Revan a good fight, if not defeat him, and therefore, have vast superiority to Kun, who scales directly above Nomi. Kun while vastly pre-prime manages to utterly annihilate Aleema (which I don't have a scan for atm unfortunately. 



And as to your "it makes no sense" logic, tell me, if TPM Kenobi were able to give someone a good fight, wouldn't you expect (say) Windu to be able to do far better? That's how my logic works. 



@Xolthol wrote:
Indeed, this is an interresting feat for the Jedi Exile, defeating a more powerful ennemy (we have no proof that out of the nexus, Traya is more powerful than Surik). However, I hardly see how this can give Meetra the edge over Nomi which scaled far above anything that Traya have shown so far. 


The quote said that she was more powerful. It never referenced a nexus.







@Xolthol: Good luck.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on November 16th 2019, 7:36 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Did AP seriously try to say that Az making what was clearly a joke in good faith is part of some larger agenda to push his opponents off the site lmfao, and is somehow worthy of his dismissal as a moderator?
IdrisianGraecus
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on November 16th 2019, 8:02 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Did AP seriously try to say that Az making what was clearly a joke in good faith is part of some larger agenda to push his opponents off the site lmfao, and is somehow worthy of his dismissal as a moderator?
I believe so.
xolthol
xolthol

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on November 18th 2019, 2:28 am
@IdrisianGraecus Interresting reply. I don't know when I will be able to respond hoping to do it in the next week or the one after
xolthol
xolthol

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on December 2nd 2019, 2:24 pm
Ouch, xolthol, I thought we were friends. That hurts a lot.
It is a correction for a greater good. ^^

Sorry in advance if some of my response seems too agressive.


*SUNRIDER POWER INTACT*


Alright, so while this is seemingly impressive, you must understand that Amanoa isn’t TP dominating her foes, she’s just sowing disorder in their ranks, which makes this feet less impressive. And while Arca, yes is able to defeat Amanoa, she’s not dominating anybody, just, you know, sowing disorder

Well lets see what we have for Amanoa feat and see if this is just "some disorder". First of all in the scan that I have provided to you:

"We can't control the warbeasts"
"All my men are getting sick and confused"

In addition to this we also have the Audio Drama from Tales of the Jedi:

Beast Rider #1: “Some kind of darkness settling over the city! Argh! Pain! Can't. Stand. It.


Beast Rider #2: "Computer, identify disturbance."
Computer: "Wave force. Energy type: unknown. Anomalies power surges detected.""
Jedi Knight: "The beast rider army. They have gone mad!"
Beast Rider #3: "My eyes! My eyes!"
Beast Rider #4: "Get it off me! Get it off me!"
Beast Rider #5: "Our beasts have gone mad! They are out of control!"
Beast Rider #6: "We surrender. We surrender! Just stop the pain!"
Modon Kira: "Whatever kind of force this is, it is some kind of madness affecting all my troops!"
Dark Side Echo: "The battle is lost. Your strength is gone. Your will is gone. Your light is pain. Surrender."
Anyone with a bit of good faith understand all of this as the proof that the Queen is casting a powerful spell on the Battlefield and this attack mind-dominated the beast warriors making their feel pain, thinking that they have lost their sight,becoming mad and so on.

Also, the text says “Hundreds of beast lord”, citation for each of them having thousands of people?
No quote but some images that you seemed to have forget. Lets briefly analyse them: [1]  give us to see an incredibly high number of people but how many ? I don't know however we can easily agree on the fact that we are talking about more than one thousand people. An interresting point on this image is the number of people holding a spear, they don't seem so many, around 1% of the people maybe. This give us a proportionality between the people with spear and the other. 
The following image give us to see a good part of the army:
SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 Rco01610

As you can see in the red frame there is lots of spears, way more than what we have in the previous picture. Knowing the proportion between spear wielders and other it is clear that we have way more than thousand of warriors. It is clearly not unbelievable to think that we are talking about hundred of thousands. In addition in the green circle you can see that a pretty good part of the sky is darkened by the number of flying best riders this is a proof that they are once again numerous. 
With all of this said we now have a an order of magnitude about the number of people that Queen Amanoa was mind-dominating.
So… Nomi wins in a  TP battle? Good job. So your entire point is saying TP victories scale you above somebody? Well that’s ludicrous. We’d have a lot of really weird scaling chains if that were the case.
My point is that if A is able to dominate B by using TP (but this could also by using TK, sheer strenght or anything else directly related to Force Power) this prove that A is a more powerful in the Force than B. This isn't ludicrous at all, if you want to prove this just do it instead of claiming something that you did not substantiate.
Furthermore, nothing says that Nomi stomped Aleema, moreso just disrupted her, which frustrated her and all
Are you paying attention to the scan that I provide you or are you just ignoring them? Because in the latter case it can explain why you are saying such non-sense. Once again lets anylisi what the scan give us to see:
"Fingers of bright Force seems to tear apart Aleema's very thought"
"No! Leave me alone! NO ! AAIEE!
In addition to this we have the fact that in the first pannel of the scan Allema is holding her head and seems to gesticulate. In the third one she seems unconscious in the grasp of her cousin.
Clearly this did not show any sign of frustration but rather despair and fear. She was just stomped by Nomi simple and fair. 
Haha, no.  As I’ve pointed out, Amanoa didn’t TP dominate them, and hundreds of thousands is extremely dubious.
You have just shown that you did not have an extended knowledge of this era and that you were not able to calculate a order of magnitude of people...
Aleema being >> Ulic is extremely suspect,
Please enlightened us: why this is suspect. Both of them agree on the fact that Aleema was the superior fighter I failed to see why this is suspect. 

sparring matches don’t reflect all out combat.
During jedi training maybe but during sith training this is clearly true, just see what happened to Malak while facing Revan during a sparring session: he loose his jaw... this seems showing that sparring matches are a good reflexion of all out fight. The only difference is the fact that you won't kill your opponent. But if you are able to subdue him it clearly show that in an all out battle you will just kill him. Once again if you claim the opposite, feel free to prove it.
Nomi being able to defeat Aleema (while granted, Aleema had an amp) in a TP contest doesn’t show superiority overall, 
CF the previous part where I already argue on this point.
and unless you’re trying to argue that Nomi is going to mind dominate Meetra right off the bat, your argument is just… false.
This is exactly what I have done in my conclusion. I have explained that because of her insane force superiority over Surik, Sunrider will just mind crush her with ease. 
Base and what my argument is false? 

 ~Partial conclusion~

You claimed lots of thing but did not prove any of your theory. You seems not to read what I have provided you in my previous post and thus make claimed that are pure non-sense. But after all if you want to loose this debate just continue like this  :>

*THE JEDI EXILE STILL BEHIND*


Oh dear god, this? Are you seriously saying that an accolade is irrelevant because Scourge never met Nomi? What kind of logic is that? Are you saying that Scourge saying Revan was one of the most powerful people he’d ever met isn’t valid for him being above (say) Ulic because Scourge never met Ulic? Like what even…? Also, Scourge is said to (in a quote I cited in the previous post) be powerful enough that the Dark Council fears him, and he’s killed all of the Jedi and Sith the Emperor felt were becoming too powerful--those that may someday challenge him. If people like Malgus, who manages to utterly dominate Satele Shan, a Jedi Master, and ransack the Jedi Temple, and defeat the likes of Ven Zallow is sub-Dark Council (Empire gives rank based on power), and the Dark Council fears Scourge, it can be inferred that Scourge has seen people with significant power, relative to those of a Grandmaster of the order. 

I agree on the fact that I wasn't so clear in my point. Lets me reformulate it for you to understand.

Scourge claim itself is clearly not enough to scale Revan or Meetra above someone of another era (like Ulic or Nomi for example). 
Yes he may have encounter foes equal to the power of Jedi Grand Master but you failed to proove that they were include in the quote that you provide. Meetra and Revan are called "greatest [...] jedi heroes" so this will only include jedi not sith that Scourge had faced. 
One last thing, the claim of Scourge did not show any sort of parity between Surik and Revan. 

Now that this is clear I can once again say that this quote isn't relevant in regard to Nomi Sunrider.

Furthermore, the title of GM is just a title. Like in the FOTJ for example, Kenth Hamner being Grandmaster in Luke’s absence doesn’t make him more powerful than Kyle, Corran, Kyp, Saba, etc. Grandmaster is a title bestowed upon the wisest, or most fit to lead, not the most powerful, you’re confusing Jedi and Sith Xolthol.

Indeed there is some grand master that are not really impressive or not known. However most of them are really powerful jedi: Satele Shan, Fae Coven, Yoda and Luke Skywalker. All of them are powerhouse and in the top tier of their order. To be fair it clealry seems that most of the time Jedi Grand Master are top tier force user and that the opposite is more the exception than the rule. 

Well, it’s in-game logic. Force Enlightenment auto-uses all augmentative abilities at the highest level.
So as you can see, Meetra auto uses speed, armor (barrier) and valor (basically poison resistance and aug) 
 
It clearly seems that you missed the meaning of what is written here. The quote that you provided only explained that when activated, this activate the most powerful of the three following power speed armor and valor. Absolutely not that this amp to their maximum this three powers. Once again I reformulate what I have previously claimed:
@XOLTHOL wrote:While this seems a powerful technique, I highly doubt that this way better than a good force barrier. If you think so, you need to proove it


How so? Nomi also did this in a stupidly specific situation. Ulic was consumed with grief at the fact that he killed his brother Cay, that he just went up and surrendered to the Jedi, and Nomi then severed him

My point wasn't that Nomi can do it when she want. Only the fact that she had done it on someone else.

How is this just a specific situation? It's a purely instinctual reaction.
She  only managed to do this once in her life despite being in way worse situation (eg: against Darth Nyriss) she never use this capacity again. This is exactly why I call this a situational power.

Nomi is not the superior force user by any means. 

Prove it! Her scaling chain put her way above anything that you have provided for Meetra.

 Even if she was, I'm merely pointing out the fact that Meetra was able to learn force mastery, something only the most powerful of masters can do. I'm not saying she'll use it mid-battle. 

Ok maybe I missed your point...

Force Channel or potency don't make you more vulnerable. Potency increases the power of your attacks, channel lets you use them with more ease
"However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack"

You provided this quote. It seems that you have no problem with contradicting your own quotes marvelous...

What the hell even? These are the masters that survived the purge, they are evidently the most powerful. 
Being a survivor of a slaughter isn't the proof that you are powerful, only that 1°)you managed to escape before it become impossible for you to survive or 2°) you were powerful enough to stop the attack by yourself (maybe with some allies). We know that 2°) did not happened so the fact that they survived is only the proof that they managed to escape before it was too late. Not really a proof of power...

Any of them are capable of teaching Meetra Juyo, or Force Mastery, techniques "only the most powerful masters" can learn

Once again you like false equivalence. You are claiming that the group "most powerful jedi"(from SF!Bastilla) is the same than "most skilled Force wielders"(from the description of Juyo). This is clearly a non sense because:

  • There is a huge difference between "skill" and "power". Being good in one of this area has zero relation to being good in the other one.
  • This two quotes comes from two absolutely different sources so there is absolutely no way for you to prove that they mentionned the same group. This qualificatif is just way to vague to allow us to made any sort of equivalence.


Alright, and to prove this even further, I'll link an argument that you should be intimately familiar with.
You are just re-using the argument made by MasterCilghal during his opening. I don't even know which part you are trying to use to argue anything. This whole thing don't contradict anything that I have previously posted. You still did not prove that the 3 jedi masters killed by Traya are included in the quote from SF!Bastilla. Try again!

Furthermore, even if not all of them are council members, why does that exclude them from being among the most powerful? That makes absolutely no sense? Jedi put people on their council based on wisdom, not raw power. Otherwise Anakin-goddamn-Skywalker wouldn't have been pissed off in the first place. You keep making this mistake.

And you keep missing my point... I did not said that this jedi needs to be a part of the jedi council to be powerful. I just said that they are part of the jedi council (with other masters) but that you failled to prove that they are include into SF!Bastilla claim because you did not prove that they are the only members of the jedi council or that the claim of bastilla apply to all jedi masters here. (Yes I'm keep saying the same thing hoping that this time you will have my point and stop missing it).
 
I'm saying that Meetra scales vastly above giving a frantic fight to KOTOR Revan. 
 And your scaling is clearly false. You did not counter any of my point that literraly destroy your scaling.

I'm saying that because Bastila is able to give Revan such a good fight, and Meetra scales so vastly above that, Meetra should at least be able to give Revan a good fight, if not defeat him, and therefore, have vast superiority to Kun, who scales directly above Nomi. Kun while vastly pre-prime manages to utterly annihilate Aleema (which I don't have a scan for atm unfortunately. 

No need to provide any scan I know that Kun is more powerful than Nomi. But the problem are the following: 

1°)Your scaling chain which should put Meetra above SF!Bastilla didn't work as I have already explained

2°)Even if your scaling chain hold (which isn't the case), you still cannot use the scaling chain: Revan > SF!Malak >>>Malak > Exar Kun.(you didn't prove that base Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun). 
Indeed you cannot put Bastilla in this scaling chain. She is below SF!Malak (I think that you agree on that) and by a pretty good margin. Because of this we cannot put her between Revan and SF!Malak. You must prove either that Kun won't give a frantic combat to Revan or that Meetra is above Kun. 

Let me use an example to substantiate my explanation. During the Clone War, Ventress faced Mace Windu. The latter to defeat her need to use "all his skills" (Star Wars Fact File 108). The same Mace Windu was able to defeat in lightsaber fight Sidious. We know that Sidious is insanely above Dooku. Are you trying to argue that because Ventress gave Mace a good fight she is above Dooku ? Clearly no you won't because we know that this is false.

Now instead of Mace put Revan, instead of Ventress insert SF!Bastilla instead of Sidious use SF!Malak and instead of Dooku use Kun and you will have the same question. I hope that this time you will have my point.

The quote said that she was more powerful. It never referenced a nexus
The quote said that despite Traya being more powerful she was defeated. We know that Traya was on a Nexus while being defeated. One can legitimately argue that "more powerful" imply the presence of the Nexus. Feel free to provide other evidence that Traya was more powerful without the nexus...

~Partial Conclusion~

You missed half of my points and did not counter the other half....

*CONCLUSION*


You have failed to prove any relevant point so far in this debate.
You keep missing my points.
You are contradicting quotes or try making them say what you want while this isn't the case at all.

I think that you are desperate in this fight and that you know that you are loosing it. So you are trying desperate moves. This won't work!

Nomi is just way too powerful for Meetra accept it and concede this fight before it become too late.

@IdrisianGraecus Your move sir!
xolthol
xolthol

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on December 2nd 2019, 2:25 pm
Decaf_Beverages
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on December 2nd 2019, 3:06 pm
Indeed a good summary of Nomi's abilities
Decaf_Beverages
Decaf_Beverages

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on December 2nd 2019, 3:06 pm
I do have some critiques, but I will wait to voice them
xolthol
xolthol

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on December 2nd 2019, 6:51 pm
@Decaf_Beverages wrote:I do have some critiques, but I will wait to voice them
Don't hesitate to PM me if you wan to discuss some point.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus

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on December 2nd 2019, 10:17 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:AP is getting paranoid.
Legend says he still is to this day
IdrisianGraecus
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on December 4th 2019, 4:35 pm
@Xolthol wrote:Well let's see what we have for Amanoa feat and see if this is just "some disorder". First of all in the scan that I have provided to you:

"We can't control the warbeasts"
"All my men are getting sick and confused"

In addition to this we also have the Audio Drama from Tales of the Jedi:

Beast Rider #1: “Some kind of darkness settling over the city! Argh! Pain! Can't. Stand. It.


Beast Rider #2: "Computer, identify disturbance."
Computer: "Wave force. Energy type: unknown. Anomalies power surges detected.""
Jedi Knight: "The beast rider army. They have gone mad!"
Beast Rider #3: "My eyes! My eyes!"
Beast Rider #4: "Get it off me! Get it off me!"
Beast Rider #5: "Our beasts have gone mad! They are out of control!"
Beast Rider #6: "We surrender. We surrender! Just stop the pain!"
Modon Kira: "Whatever kind of force this is, it is some kind of madness affecting all my troops!"
Dark Side Echo: "The battle is lost. Your strength is gone. Your will is gone. Your light is pain. Surrender."
Anyone with a bit of good faith understand all of this as the proof that the Queen is casting a powerful spell on the Battlefield and this attack mind-dominated the beast warriors making their feel pain, thinking that they have lost their sight,becoming mad and so on.



My bad, frankly, I couldn’t read most of the scans. But anyway, this is sorcery. She’s not TP dominating them, TP domination implies outright control, whereas these guys are just getting their thoughts screwed. 




@Xolthol wrote:No quote but some images that you seemed to have forget. Lets briefly analyse them: [1]   give us to see an incredibly high number of people but how many ? I don't know however we can easily agree on the fact that we are talking about more than one thousand people. An interresting point on this image is the number of people holding a spear, they don't seem so many, around 1% of the people maybe. This give us a proportionality between the people with spear and the other. 
The following image give us to see a good part of the army:



But Hundreds of Thousands is incredibly dubious. Furthermore, you cannot just make claims based on the amount of people you think you see. I could claim that Caedus’ Fondor TP feat is incredible, because “hundreds and more” implies more than a hundred, which can be any number > 100. Or perhaps I can claim that based on how many people I think were in the senate room when Kun TP’d it, there were that many, etc, etc.



@Xolthol wrote:My point is that if A is able to dominate B by using TP (but this could also by using TK, sheer strenght or anything else directly related to Force Power) this prove that A is a more powerful in the Force than B. This isn't ludicrous at all, if you want to prove this just do it instead of claiming something that you did not substantiate.



Xolthol, telepathy is one of those outliers. There are plenty of characters that are TP savants, such as Lord Kaan, Lord Vivicar, etc. You cannot claim that because Kaan has superior TP, he’s > or >> Darth Caedus, for example, or that people that scale from them can do so, etc. 





@Xolthol wrote:Are you paying attention to the scan that I provide you or are you just ignoring them? Because in the latter case it can explain why you are saying such non-sense. Once again lets anylisi what the scan give us to see:
"Fingers of bright Force seems to tear apart Aleema's very thought"
"No! Leave me alone! NO ! AAIEE!
In addition to this we have the fact that in the first pannel of the scan Allema is holding her head and seems to gesticulate. In the third one she seems unconscious in the grasp of her cousin.
Clearly this did not show any sign of frustration but rather despair and fear. She was just stomped by Nomi simple and fair. 



Sorry, I have shite eyesight, a shite computer, and the text on that thing was miniscule.


So anyway, as I’ve already explained, people like Nomi are TP savants. Nomi was the only master of BM at the time, a telepathic ability. For example, Kyp Durron threw Corran Horn across a room with a flick of his wrist in DN. We cannot use that as evidence for saying that Kyp >>> Corran because Corran has a natural hindrance in terms of telekinetics. Similarly, we can reconcile these scaling chains by implying Nomi is a TP Savant. This is extremely likely due to her natural BM ability. IE, Nomi is naturally good at TP, Aleema isn’t, etc. But either way, this is irrelevant because of the unquantifiable nature of the feat, and the fact that the scaling I’ve provided for Meetra propels her above Nomi irrespectively.




@Xolthol wrote:Please enlightened us: why this is suspect. Both of them agree on the fact that Aleema was the superior fighter I failed to see why this is suspect.



I was referring to prime Ulic…




@Xolthol wrote:During jedi training maybe but during sith training this is clearly true, just see what happened to Malak while facing Revan during a sparring session: he loose his jaw... this seems showing that sparring matches are a good reflexion of all out fight. The only difference is the fact that you won't kill your opponent. But if you are able to subdue him it clearly show that in an all out battle you will just kill him. Once again if you claim the opposite, feel free to prove it.



Xolthol, that’s blatantly false. It wasn’t a sparring session, Malak straight up challenged Revan 

Banite-style. This was an all-out fight.

SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 S3oArCrE9OaB_7tDyu2pO3iaQ-aDB1mEISGyc8EPX6S8lgUXNlfLgMp2pjfyokH0mj1jBPWeJ3CpAe9QsrQGMbzJ7EsFQZAP2b0MVfHVgmWVKweKzmOaEti_XJ4AUQ5r36zzJnKj

SS - MEETRA SURIK (IdrisianGraecus) VS NOMI SUNRIDER (Xolthol) - Page 2 Dd2wGRQQho14ybc12S8z-Wrc48BTObV1A0B3hTAL8ZYePoy2uZmc7utryOT27b6jyGWYlLw5-5VQBN62XT5hB-VZl1DkmlVaoO2sBLXFSkG9UDL_y7i82PtaIxxzLE4ZwszznItQ


 There are many examples of sparring sessions that don’t show abject superiority, now that we’ve gotten this out of the way, such as TPM Kenobi besting Plo Koon, or perhaps Corran Horn besting Luke in a sparring session during I, Jedi.




@Xolthol wrote:This is exactly what I have done in my conclusion. I have explained that because of her insane force superiority over Surik, Sunrider will just mind crush her with ease. 
Base and what my argument is false? 



Well, for one, this is abjectly insane. TP defence is something Meetra does not lack in, as she recovers from the mental trauma of going back to Malachor and still manages to beat Traya, Sion, and countless others. She resists the Nathemic drain, etc. There is nothing that suggests that Nomi’s TP advantage will allow her to win right off the bat. Especially considering the fact that I can scale Meetra above Nomi, and that there is absolutely no evidence that suggests that In-character, Nomi will opt to TP destroy an opponent in a straight fight, as most force users engage in saber combat first, something that you’ve conceded that Meetra has a vast advantage in.





@Xolthol wrote:I agree on the fact that I wasn't so clear in my point. Lets me reformulate it for you to understand.

Scourge claim itself is clearly not enough to scale Revan or Meetra above someone of another era (like Ulic or Nomi for example). 
Yes he may have encounter foes equal to the power of Jedi Grand Master but you failed to proove that they were include in the quote that you provide. Meetra and Revan are called "greatest [...] jedi heroes" so this will only include jedi not sith that Scourge had faced. 
One last thing, the claim of Scourge did not show any sort of parity between Surik and Revan. 

Now that this is clear I can once again say that this quote isn't relevant in regard to Nomi Sunrider.



Thanks for the clarification, I get what you’re saying now. I’m not trying to prove parity, nor am I saying this on its own puts Meetra > Nomi. What I am saying is that Scourge frightens people that are at the level of Jedi Masters, such as members of the Dark Council. If he couldn’t defeat DC members, he likely wouldn’t be of any use to the Emperor, and he again, frightens DC members, which could include heavyweights like Marr. Furthermore, Malgus isn’t on the Dark Council, and he is objectively superior to Satele Shan as of the Hope trailer. Since Scourge frightens the Dark Council, which Angral was put on instead of Malgus as of Deceived, we can draw the conclusion that Scourge is likely > or >> Malgus as of Deceived. We can tell this because the Empire is a meritocracy of sorts. You need power to be at the top, unlike the Jedi, where the wisest are in charge.




@Xolthol wrote:Indeed there is some grand master that are not really impressive or not known. However most of them are really powerful jedi: Satele Shan, Fae Coven, Yoda and Luke Skywalker. All of them are powerhouse and in the top tier of their order. To be fair it clealry seems that most of the time Jedi Grand Master are top tier force user and that the opposite is more the exception than the rule. 



Never is it said Grandmaster is the most powerful of the order, it just ends up being this way in many cases. Furthermore, Satele isn’t at the top of her order, that’s the Hero of Tython in terms of power and combat skill, as Satele herself states, “You are the [greatest] of us”. I don’t remember the exact quote. Furthermore, Scourge scales above Satele, and he’s saying Meetra >> all other Jedi he’s encountered, when in fact, Meetra was hindered by the nexus of Dromund Kaas, and therefore, was not nearly at her full potency, especially when said nexus was able to hinder Luke-Effing-Skywalker. To a significant degree.




@Xolthol wrote:It clearly seems that you missed the meaning of what is written here. The quote that you provided only explained that when activated, this activate the most powerful of the three following power speed armor and valor. Absolutely not that this amp to their maximum this three powers. Once again I reformulate what I have previously claimed:



It doesn’t only activate one of them, it activates all at their maximum usage (ie “master ______” for all three abilities). Armor obviously, is a barrier, valor and speed are augmentative abilities. 




@Xolthol wrote:She  only managed to do this once in her life despite being in way worse situation (eg: against Darth Nyriss) she never use this capacity again. This is exactly why I call this a situational power.



So she’ll cut herself off from the force… in a combat situation? That’s absolutely absurd. I meant to use the sever force thing as a “look, she can recover from mental trauma” & also as an example of her power… not saying she’ll sever Nomi mid-fight. 




@Xolthol wrote:Prove it! Her scaling chain put her way above anything that you have provided for Meetra.


Well it’s not like I scaled Meetra above Kun or anything….


@Xolthol wrote:"However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack"

You provided this quote. It seems that you have no problem with contradicting your own quotes marvelous…





The hell even? I wasn’t saying that she’d use the ability Force Mastery in a fight, nor that she’d necessarily use the abilities period. I was saying that her learning it in the first place is a testament to Meetra’s mastery of the force. There is a very clear distinction between the term “mastery” and the actual ability “Force Mastery”. 



@Xolthol wrote:Once again you like false equivalence. You are claiming that the group "most powerful jedi"(from SF!Bastilla) is the same than "most skilled Force wielders"(from the description of Juyo). This is clearly a non sense because:


  • There is a huge difference between "skill" and "power". Being good in one of this area has zero relation to being good in the other one.

  • This two quotes comes from two absolutely different sources so there is absolutely no way for you to prove that they mentionned the same group. This qualificatif is just way to vague to allow us to made any sort of equivalence.

You are just re-using the argument made by MasterCilghal during his opening. I don't even know which part you are trying to use to argue anything. This whole thing don't contradict anything that I have previously posted. You still did not prove that the 3 jedi masters killed by Traya are included in the quote from SF!Bastilla. Try again!

And you keep missing my point... I did not said that this jedi needs to be a part of the jedi council to be powerful. I just said that they are part of the jedi council (with other masters) but that you failled to prove that they are include into SF!Bastilla claim because you did not prove that they are the only members of the jedi council or that the claim of bastilla apply to all jedi masters here. (Yes I'm keep saying the same thing hoping that this time you will have my point and stop missing it).



Alright, time to dispense with the bullshit. The most skilled force wielders are logically going to be among the most powerful, and therefore are included in the group Bastila mentions. Vrook himself is on effing Dantooine when Bastila mentions that the Order’s most powerful masters are there. Kavar is stated to have “extremely potent force powers”.


In KOTOR II, Kreia remarks the ability to learn and use (and therefore teach) Force Mastery is something gifted to “only the highest masters”. Kreia also says, "Regardless.... it had to be done. To have such powerful Jedi still live, still be felt in the Force even on dead worlds as they had chosen, was a threat that had to be ended” about killing the masters. 


Vrook is included in Bastila’s quote, no matter what you say, and all of the masters are implied to be equal given that they are all said to be “such powerful Jedi”, and are the highest of masters, the most skilled of them, etc. 


There is absolutely nothing preventing the masters from being part of who Bastila mentions, given that they have the accolades to back it up, as well as OOU statements to back it up. Furthermore, you mentioned that due to two quotes being from two separate sources, they are irrelevant together. I’m sorry xolthol, but that is the utmost bullshit I’ve ever heard. There is no reason why they can’t both be taken into account. 



@Xolthol wrote:No need to provide any scan I know that Kun is more powerful than Nomi. But the problem are the following: 

1°)Your scaling chain which should put Meetra above SF!Bastilla didn't work as I have already explained

2°)Even if your scaling chain hold (which isn't the case), you still cannot use the scaling chain: Revan > SF!Malak >>>Malak > Exar Kun.(you didn't prove that base Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun). 
Indeed you cannot put Bastilla in this scaling chain. She is below SF!Malak (I think that you agree on that) and by a pretty good margin. Because of this we cannot put her between Revan and SF!Malak. You must prove either that Kun won't give a frantic combat to Revan or that Meetra is above Kun. 

Let me use an example to substantiate my explanation. During the Clone War, Ventress faced Mace Windu. The latter to defeat her need to use "all his skills" (Star Wars Fact File 108). The same Mace Windu was able to defeat in lightsaber fight Sidious. We know that Sidious is insanely above Dooku. Are you trying to argue that because Ventress gave Mace a good fight she is above Dooku ? Clearly no you won't because we know that this is false.

Now instead of Mace put Revan, instead of Ventress insert SF!Bastilla instead of Sidious use SF!Malak and instead of Dooku use Kun and you will have the same question. I hope that this time you will have my point.



Okay, I understand your position from the very beginning, but there are inherent flaws throughout. Xolthol, the Malak quote refers to base Malak, it’s extremely simple. The quote literally reads, “He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun”. That is what the quote says, it’s not saying the SF amped Malak is >> Kun, it’s asking whether his cybernetics gave him this power, or if he already had it. Furthermore, your analogy doesn’t work due to a key part of the quote. “Powers far greater than even Exar Kun” Meaning that Malak is vastly more powerful. And we both agree that Malak is more powerful than Bastila, by a good amount, but since Malak has powers far greater than Kun, Bastila should still be at his level. I don’t need to prove Kun won’t give a good fight to Revan as Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun. 


As for your TCW analogy, you realize that Fact Files are In-Universe, and therefore, highly unreliable? Your analogy makes no sense, and therefore is blatantly false. 




@Xolthol wrote:The quote said that despite Traya being more powerful she was defeated. We know that Traya was on a Nexus while being defeated. One can legitimately argue that "more powerful" imply the presence of the Nexus. Feel free to provide other evidence that Traya was more powerful without the nexus...



She was on a nexus yes, but you aren’t proving that she was weaker than Meetra without it. Irrespectively, we know that Traya was amped and Meetra was hindered, so the point is moot. 




@Xolthol wrote:You missed half of my points and did not counter the other half....



Like what? I countered what I actually cared for. Parts of your chain were valid.





@Xolthol wrote:You have failed to prove any relevant point so far in this debate.
You keep missing my points.
You are contradicting quotes or try making them say what you want while this isn't the case at all.

I think that you are desperate in this fight and that you know that you are loosing it. So you are trying desperate moves. This won't work!

Nomi is just way too powerful for Meetra accept it and concede this fight before it become too late.


Your dün möch will not work on me. You have lost already xolthol.




Meetra >>> Trayus Meetra > Trayus Traya >>> Traya >>> the three masters >>> (any of them, but for example) Vrook on his own > SF Bastila.




Bastila << KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun.


Therefore if Bastila is at Kun's tier (which I've proven Bastila is, at the least), then Meetra >> Kun.





So finally,

Meetra >>> Trayus Meetra > Trayus Traya >>> Traya >>> the three masters >>> (any of them, but for example) Vrook on his own > SF Bastila << KOTOR Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun.





Or to condense,

Meetra >>> Trayus Meetra > Trayus Traya >>> Traya >>> the three masters >>> (any of them, but for example) Vrook on his own > SF Bastila << SF Malak >>> Malak >>> Kun >>>> Nomi.





Meetra is vastly superior to Nomi as a duelist, and any sort of TP advantage Nomi has is offset by Meetra's TP resistance. But this scaling chain conclusively proves that Nomi isn't even in Meetra's realm of power.
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