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DC77 (Reborn)
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on October 2nd 2019, 10:50 am
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Nyax ftw.
KingofBlades
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on October 2nd 2019, 10:55 am
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@DarthAnt66 wrote:★ Top Fifteen Tournament #4 - Irek Ismaren - Page 2 Nyax11

While Azronger made a strong case why Nyax shouldn't be put above prime Luke or Palpatine, I think #4 is a good spot for him -- especially considering the revised rules. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states above that Luke and friends were "unable to battle him with lightsabers," obviously due to his Grievous++ cybernetics and eight lightsabers. Unless Luke was unfathomably weakened (very unlikely), it's hard to see why Malgus would need a bigger amp to conventionally defeat Yoda or KFV in a lightsaber duel than to somehow find a way to put Nyax down. Lightsabers are explicitly worthless, and it's going to be nigh-impossible to down him with the Force. 

My vote goes to NYAX. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #4 - Irek Ismaren - Page 2 1289255181
[hideedit]
True but as Operation Knightfall Vader had virtually unrestricted access to his potential with the possibility of being a reality warper. So if Malgus were to receive an amp making him Yoda+, Vader could easily rise to the occasion and just draw on more power. While he hadn't reached his full potential, I think it would take considerably more than a Yoda+ amp to outpace Vader's ability to draw on his power. Also since Luke tends to hold back unconsciously, is there any way to really quantify Nyax. For all we know, an all out Luke could have blitzed Nyax with sabers.
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on October 2nd 2019, 10:56 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Nyax was debunked. Join the Anakin Brigade

The debunking was debunked.
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on October 2nd 2019, 11:13 am
Also since Luke tends to hold back unconsciously, is there any way to really quantify Nyax. For all we know, an all out Luke could have blitzed Nyax with sabers.

@KingofBlades: You should check out Bran's post on page one.
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on October 2nd 2019, 11:28 am
I will make a longer case for Vader later. Brans post was convincing and it raised my opinion of Nyax considerably, but not enough to stop the juggernaut that is KFV.
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on October 2nd 2019, 11:30 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Nyax was debunked. Join the Anakin Brigade

The debunking was debunked.
The debunking of the debunking is insufficient to conquer the god that is KFV
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on October 2nd 2019, 12:40 pm
@Quorian Debatist

Excellent post. I change my vote to NYAX.
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on October 2nd 2019, 12:43 pm
Same with me. NYAX for the win.
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on October 2nd 2019, 1:03 pm
@DarthAnt66 Actually before i make a case for Vader I have to ask. Just how motivated would he be according to the rules?
IdrisianGraecus
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on October 2nd 2019, 3:35 pm
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Actually, I want to vote for Geth
DarthAnt66
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on October 2nd 2019, 3:46 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:@DarthAnt66 Actually before i make a case for Vader I have to ask. Just how motivated would he be according to the rules?

Like as hard as he fought against Dooku at the end there.
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on October 2nd 2019, 9:11 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:@DarthAnt66 Actually before i make a case for Vader I have to ask. Just how motivated would he be according to the rules?

Like as hard as he fought against Dooku at the end there.
Perfect. Expect my post within a few days.
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on October 2nd 2019, 11:16 pm
For me the contenders are:

Nyax
Yoda
Krayt

After that are Plagueis and Knightfall Vader.

My list would probably be the current top 3, then:

4. Nyax
5. Krayt
6. Yoda
7. Knightfall Vader
8. Plagueis

Nyax just seems too freakishly powerful relative to Luke not to be above the others. Krayt's handling of Cade and the Apoc stuff I believe is enough to put him above Yoda, and I also think the lore allows for that conclusion. Knightfall Vader was on the verge of surpassing Yoda but I don't think he quite got there, so he's just slightly below. Then Plagueis again is just a notch or two below that.

I know there's a lot of other contenders in that same bracket, I'm just not as confident to make arguments for them as I am these handful. You also have Mace, Revan, Vaylin, Vol, Unuthul, Joruus, Gethzerion and so on.
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on October 2nd 2019, 11:50 pm
@Quorian Debatist Really impressive point for Nyax. But what made you put him above the likes of Vol, Unuthul, Krayt ?
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on October 3rd 2019, 12:13 am
Nyax
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on October 3rd 2019, 12:34 am
Plagueis
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on October 3rd 2019, 3:19 pm
Hmm after reading Bran's post more thoroughly I am no longer entirely convinced KF Vader is superior bar willpower haxx. Nontheless I will still provide my Vader argument just to prevent any Plagueis or Yoda arguments taking hold for future rounds.
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on October 3rd 2019, 3:44 pm
I’ll change my vote to Yoda, actually.
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on October 3rd 2019, 4:09 pm
Nyax for the win. He should be #1, honestly.
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on October 3rd 2019, 7:43 pm
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In order to truly understand the depths of Knightfall Vader's power, I will first be addressing two misconceptions about Anakin, his power as a jedi as of RotS and his force mastery. 


RotS Jedi Anakin>Yoda
Let us compare Anakin's fight with Dooku in his base state and Yoda's fight with Dooku in AotC and DR


 Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast. Not fast enough. With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade. With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.


Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force. "Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back. -AtoC Novel


We see here that Yoda is clearly in control of the fight. He was anticipating Dooku's every move and had him plainly outmached. However Dooku was still able to parry and hold off Yoda's assault without a great deal of difficulty. This is impressive since Yoda has lethal intent in this fight per the AotC script. So while Yoda had a clearly noticeable advantage Dooku was still able to hold his own. Let's move on to their confrontation on Vjun.


Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green
and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly,
Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air,
Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes,"Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All
those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And
here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious


here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious
Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want
to." Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda
took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade
as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped,
spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed.
Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his
blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier.
Facing each other again, their blades met,clashed, froze.
"Cunning,are you,"Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers,"Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber
blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up
and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda
squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at
Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing
him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled
with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and
sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the
diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his
blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.


blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side
whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to
destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared
stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he
countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white.
(Star Wars Yoda: Dark Rendezvous)


We see once again in this encounter that Yoda holds a noticeable edge in the battle. However Dooku still proves to hold his own. He is driven back only slowly, being able to hold off Yoda's assault, albeit experiencing some fatigue by the end of the fight. Now Dooku is obviously being amped by the nexus on Vjun but not enough to suggest there would be anything more than a case of Yoda dominating but not stomping Dooku on neutral ground. Now let's move on to Anakin's fight with the count on the IH when he's fighting serious but still restraining himself.


Skywalker slammed his
following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it
buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that
brought him to his feet—and Kenobi's blade was there to meet
his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a
wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough
time to leap away again, and when he touched down— Skywalker
was already there.
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's
instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash
of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his
own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to
give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker
came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer
droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step.
Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on
top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried
to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away;
he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the
boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer

physical power was astonishing...Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand
chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power
of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the
Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and
Skywalker—
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw
Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began
to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back
down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until
he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he
dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance
balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher

ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire-
lessly ferocious.-(RotS Novel)



We see that Anakin while in his base state is utterly dominating Dooku. Dooku finds himself barely able to parry Anakin's blows and getting fatigued at an astonishingly quick rate-to the point that he was bordering on force exhaustion after only a brief period of time. So just by comparing Anakin's performance while in his restrained, base state, to Yoda's performances we see that Anakin is plainly outperforming Yoda in AotC and is performing at least comparably to Yoda in Y:DR when you factor in Vjun's nexus. Since there are no sources showing significant growth for Yoda between the time of Y:DR and RotS, we can only assume Yoda's growth was at best moderate.  When you factor in Yoda's growth, he's likely noticeably more powerful than this version of Anakin. However any sense of superiority Yoda may have over Anakin disappears as soon as he goes "Zonakin".


This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind,
when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear
within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps
and hisses. Dooku and Skywalker, a one-time-only command
performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and
Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping,
parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around
them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed
Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without
effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere
pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time
curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery
of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence,
impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste—the
pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his


time and attention over the long, long years of his life—are now
chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him
handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail
like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has
degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will
mark the passing of its hero.
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in
all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back.
That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his
strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that
Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how
Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan
himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and
he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—
But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin
permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all
his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist


cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tum-
bling back.


When with all the power that the dark side can draw from
throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the
durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would
come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered
heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind.
On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that
smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing
in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within
this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of
space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out


there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear
as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win.
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took.
Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will
and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates
flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber
hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair.
The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its
spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red
blade.
He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.-(RotS Novel)


Once Anakin lets loose he utterly annihilates Dooku. The gap between them has become so large that Anakin can decide the very moment he defeats Dooku. Being able to decide the exact moment of your victory is no different from a one shot. So its clear that Anakin has now reached a level that is far beyond Dooku. There is no evidence that the gap between Yoda and Dooku reached this magnitude between the time of Y:DR and RotS. Now this power increase Anakin has experienced in permanent as it was born out of an epiphany that he can utilize his fear and anger as a weapon. This knowledge doesn't spontaneously go away so there's no reason to assume that the power boost was temporary. So as of the end of the IH fight, Anakin is at the very least =Yoda and far more likely outright more powerful. It is the latter stance that is supported by statements.



Mace Windu, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
Note:We see here that Mace is referring to applicable power instead of Anakin's potential since he notes that Anakin is growing in power, which would not be referring to potential power since one's latent potential does not grow. 



Agen Kolar, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization

"And even if the prophecy has been misread. Anakin is the one Jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord."



Jacen Solo, Star Wars Legacy of the Force - Bloodlines

"'I’m more powerful than any of you.'
It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true."


Star Wars The Official Figurine Collection #8

Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known.


Star Wars Miniatures - Ultimate Missions - Revenge of the Sith

Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years . . . This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.


The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived



Some might argue that Gillard's placement of jedi Anakin as an 8 to Yoda's 9 would override everything I have argued thus far. They'd be wrong. Gillard only ever says that Anakin starts RotS as an 8 and then jumps up to a 9 later on. Gillard never says that Anakin was an 8 for as long as he was a jedi. It's entirely plausible that Anakin starts the IH fight an 8 but jumps up to a 9 as soon as he goes Zonakin. This perfectly reconciles Anakin's supremacy quotes and Gillard's statements. So now we have a clear power scaling for Jedi Anakin and yoda: Post IH Jedi Anakin>/~RotS Yoda>/~Pre IH Jedi Anakin>>RotS Dooku

Anakin's force mastery ~Yoda's
There is a common misconception that Anakin Skywalker's force mastery is horrendously sub par. However we know that Anakin has a mastery of the force rivaling anyone on the council(this includes Yoda)


Obi-Wan, Star Wars Labyrinth of Evil

"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."


Now I have established that Jedi Anakin is more powerful than Yoda and has comparable mastery, let us move on to KFV


The Power of KF Vader
At this point Anakin has completely embraced the dark side, to an even greater extent than he did on the IH and has even greater mental clarity than he did on the IH, making far more deadly than he was as a jedi.To further reinforce Vader's superiority over Yoda, We see a source in which Sheev is present, that KFV is said to possess unparalled power in the force. 

Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website

Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

This shows that Vader at his peak is on a different level compared to Yoda. This is further supported by Nick Gillard's rankings:


"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. “It’s only a writing tool,” he says, “but it gives you the edge over it just being a fight."


In the context of the 10 tier scale peak Vader would be a 9 bordering 10. Now obviously Vader doesn't operate at this level all the time. He's a 9 that borders 10 when he's at his best. Since the difference in power between levels is massive, Vader bordering tier 10 (since the tournament says to debate characters at their combative peak, we would be debating Vader when he borders tier 10) puts him at a level entirely above RotS Yoda and Sheev, which is supported by the SW data bank quote. In Summary:
     1.Jedi Anakin is >Yoda in applicable power
     2.Jedi Anakin is ~Yoda in force mastery
     3. Anakin achieved greater power once he became Lord Vader
     4. KFV is on an entirely different level than the other PT greats when he's operating at his best
Peak KFV>>Jedi Anakin>/~RotS Yoda


Last edited by KingofBlades on October 3rd 2019, 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on October 3rd 2019, 7:45 pm
Now whether the above argument is enough to put Vader above NYAX...I'm not sure. However I think this is enough to put him above the likes of Plagueis and Yoda.
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on October 3rd 2019, 8:27 pm
@KingofBlades: Strong post. I might disagree with some minor details, but I definitely agree that KFV's an overall more formidable than Yoda or ROTS Palpatine.  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #4 - Irek Ismaren - Page 2 1289255181

While I'm with you all the way for KFV being ranked before Plagueis and Yoda, I'm not sure that's enough to make KFV a greater threat than Nyax's absurdity.
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on October 3rd 2019, 8:57 pm
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on October 3rd 2019, 11:41 pm
@KingofBlades: Even though I disagree with you, you have made a good point. But this still didn't put KFV on the level of Krayt, Unu, Vol, Nyax...
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on October 3rd 2019, 11:53 pm
@xolthol wrote:@KingofBlades: Even though I disagree with you, you have made a good point. But this still didn't put KFV on the level of Krayt, Unu, Vol, Nyax...
In which parts of my argument did you disagree?
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