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IdrisianGraecus
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 29th 2019, 2:04 pm
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slayne
slayne

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 29th 2019, 4:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Plagueis has demonstrated insane durability even in instances where his ability to direct the Force should've been especially muted (i.e face-tanking Sidious' lightning while half-asleep and drunk out of his mind.) This was twenty years (iirc) after Plagueis managed to curbstomp a room full of specially trained Jedi-killers while simultaneously compensating for a failing heart, a severed trachea, and titanic blood loss... all without midichlorian manipulation, and with hindrances to his mental condition somewhat similar to those of the first example being present. 

Factor in MM on top of two decades of continuous growth, and I don't think anything short of direct amputation would trouble Hego. This sucks for Mace, since a lightsaber duel is his only avenue of victory, and the horizon darkens even further when Plagueis' offensive haxx are taken into account. Plagueis will kill off greater numbers of Windu's midichlorians as the battle progresses, which would continually reduce the potency of the basic Force maneuvers keeping him in the fight (namely, Force augmentation.) 

Windu's screwed if he doesn't end this fight very quickly, and imo that's just beyond his ability. Plagueis, 9-10/10.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 29th 2019, 5:19 pm
Perfection 🥐
KingofBlades
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 29th 2019, 5:28 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I still fail to see any evidence that Plagueis would be able to perform MM offensively to any meaningful extent against a powerful force user. His only offensive feat is using it against Veruna lmao. Trying to say he can use it against a force user on Windu's level when no evidence supports this claim is a no limits fallacy
darthbane77
darthbane77

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on September 29th 2019, 8:35 pm
Windu, all. Comparability/nigh-parity to RotS Sidious puts him outside Plagueis' ability to defeat in a straight fight.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 1:23 am
Yo everyone’s saying Mace can match Plagueis in Force but there’s nothing supporting this. What’s the argument?
Meatpants
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 1:40 am
Plagueis wins all rounds.
Latham2000
Latham2000

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 10:17 am
mace wins because he will sense plagy's fear and defeat him.
HellfireUnit
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 10:24 am
What makes you think that Plagueis has fears and Mace would be in the same mindset when he fought Palpatine? Even with that, Plagueis is simply too powerful for Mace.
Latham2000
Latham2000

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 10:56 am
you fool, sid is more powerful than plagy, lucas himself says that mace can compete with sid with no amps mentioned , master windu himself notes how old sid lost due to his own fear;

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

- revenge of da sith novelization
HellfireUnit
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 11:08 am
Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 3948126588
Latham2000
Latham2000

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 11:39 am
lucas also says that mace overpowered old palpy btw,
KingofBlades
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 11:44 am
@Latham2000 wrote:you fool, sid is more powerful than plagy, lucas himself says that mace can compete with sid with no amps mentioned , master windu himself notes how old sid lost due to his own fear;
Well all Lucas said is that Mace can compete with Sheev. He didn't say anything else on the matter(Note absence of evidence is not evidence of absence) It is through the novels(they are relevant since we're discussing legends) that we understand why Mace was able to compete with Sheev. And that reason is Vaapad allows him to channel and redirect the power and DS emotions of his opponent, thus amping him beyond his normal capabilities.Also Mace was mistaken when he claimed he won due to Sheev's fear. The fear he was actually feeding on was Anakin Skywalker's.
KingofBlades
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 11:56 am
OT: Even if you want to claim Plagueis has superior force power compared to Windu, Windu should be able to equalize any power disparity with Vaapad, leaving the battle to be decided by whoever has superior skill. Which is Windu's game to win.
DarthAnt66
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 12:16 pm
@"Latham2000", note the follow-up lines:

Palpatine lifted his head.

His eyes smoked with hate.

"Fool," he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
DC77 (Reborn)
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 12:27 pm
Mace.
slayne
slayne

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on September 30th 2019, 9:50 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KingofBlades wrote:I still fail to see any evidence that Plagueis would be able to perform MM offensively to any meaningful extent against a powerful force user. His only offensive feat is using it against Veruna lmao. Trying to say he can use it against a force user on Windu's level when no evidence supports this claim is a no limits fallacy

He just might be able to, tbh. Let's start with what his entry in the Book of the Sith teaches us about the matter: 

“I began with experiments on scurriers and other small creatures. I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians, to override the lesser concentrated midi-chlorian voices of the test subjects. This proved more challenging than I predicted. Because midi-chlorians are linked by a universal mind, the ones in my own cells seem to resist this imposition upon their fellows. But eventually I succeeded, first with small creatures, then with slaves purchased from the Hutts. I forced midi-chlorians to override their natural life cycles.”

-- Book of the Sith

What Plagueis essentially does is impose his will upon the opponent's midichlorians with the goal of inducing a change. Plagueis notes that the "lesser concentrated midichlorian voices" within the subject of the manipulation, in seeming tandem with his own midichlorians, provide the resistance to Plagueis' efforts. The number of midichlorians present within the test subject appear to act as conduits for the will of the Force; that is, its desire not to be manipulated. More midichlorians being present gives the Force a greater number of conduits through which to effect this desire (a louder "voice", so to speak), thereby making Plagueis' job that much harder. This pattern can be seen in Plagueis' progression with regards to what he can manipulate: small animals at first, then presumably non-Force sensitive slaves, and then finally powerful Force users in the form of Venamis. I personally doubt that the Jedi archives contained very many treatises on midichlorian manipulation, so this is probably the only defense that would present itself to Plagueis in his attempt to haxx Windu. 

It's important to note here that it appears to take less mastery of such sorcery to effect it upon another than upon oneself. After Plagueis literally manipulates Venamis - an extremely powerful Force entity independent from Hego himself - into oblivion and back, he goes on a quest spanning months with the goal of discerning how to apply this trickery to himself: 

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvenating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

-- Darth Plagueis

By the time of his death at the hands of Sidious, the dude's mastery of the technique becomes... well, for lack of a better word, broken. While blackout drunk - and, more to the point, barely conscious - Plagueis effortlessly tanks perhaps the most powerful lightning Sidious had ever managed to generate up to that point, simply by manipulating his midichlorians in a manner which outpaced Sidious' destructive output. 

Now, given that:


  • according to general consensus (iirc), Plagueis is probably comparable to Windu in terms of raw power (i.e amount of midichlorians to be manipulated)
  • Plagueis could bring to bear the necessary willpower to effectively use MM in a combat situation while in an absolutely atrocious mental state, which he isn't hindered by here
  • It takes far more mastery of the technique to be able to use it on yourself than on others, and Plagueis successfully applied such mastery to a being at least comparably powerful to Windu (himself) while drunk


It isn't at all unreasonable to assume that Windu's getting haxxed here, imo.
Azronger
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on October 1st 2019, 12:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@slayne You're doing great work. To reinforce your stance, Plagueis deemed severing the Force through inducing midi-chlorian deaths far easier to achieve than doing the inverse in creating life. It's therefore plausible he could turn the defense he showed against Sidious into offense against Windu. Provided Windu leaves an opening in his Force defenses, Plagueis could kill him even faster than he was able regenerate the damage from Sidious' lightning.

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Killin10

It's important to note here that it appears to take less mastery of such sorcery to effect it upon another than upon oneself. After Plagueis literally manipulates Venamis - an extremely powerful Force entity independent from Hego himself - into oblivion and back, he goes on a quest spanning months with the goal of discerning how to apply this trickery to himself:

Your theory would be correct. Plagueis makes note of this very phenomenon near the beginning of the book:

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Another point in Plagueis' favor is that he doesn't need to exert himself actively to wreak long-lasting harm on Windu. To Veruna, he explained that he had instructed his midi-chlorians to merge with the Force, a description that is given in past tense (instructed, not instructing). This implies Plagueis can simply give the midi-chlorians a command which they will execute on their own; Plagueis telling Veruna that the process of merging with the Force will continue on its own even after Plagueis had left the latter's side validates this belief. All he needs to do is pull the switch on Windu, and his connection to the Force will gradually diminish over the course of the battle. Plagueis' active involvement would expedite the process, but it is by no means a necessity as Windu has no knowledge on how to reverse Plagueis' trickery and create new midi-chlorians to replace the deceased ones.

“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”

Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. “Bring … me back. I can still be … of service … to you …”

“But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith.”

“No … better than … an Anzati.”

“The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding.” Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna’s. “I’ll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own.”


Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
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TheNuisanceBird

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on October 1st 2019, 3:18 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:I still fail to see any evidence that Plagueis would be able to perform MM offensively to any meaningful extent against a powerful force user. His only offensive feat is using it against Veruna lmao. Trying to say he can use it against a force user on Windu's level when no evidence supports this claim is a no limits fallacy

I agree. It's not like he'd be able to use it in the middle of a fight with Mace Windu of all people.
Latham2000
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on October 1st 2019, 4:43 pm
@“darthant66” @“KingofBlades” no no , palpatine is a liar and was trying to save face, he did fear windu, he was just using anakin as a cover up.

mace kicked palpatines ass , plain and simple.
Azronger
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on October 1st 2019, 5:05 pm
@Latham2000 While friendly trolling is acceptable, you shouldn't call others fools.
HellfireUnit
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on October 1st 2019, 5:17 pm
Sureeee. Sure thing, Mace kicked Palpatine's ass.

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"



Latham2000
Latham2000

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on October 1st 2019, 6:12 pm
@“HellfireUnit” your quoting the lightning exchange , not the saber duel , yes old palpatine is slightly more powerful than master windu , but mace is far more skilled because of his complex technique .
ILS
ILS

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on October 2nd 2019, 9:35 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
To add to Az and slayne's points: there is the passage early in the Plagueis novel wherein it's said that death is fixed in space and time, and that the midichlorians prepare to come to this point in space and time, and that their dispersal at the point of death is inexorable. Trying to stop a physical death by manipulating the midichlorians was like trying to dam a river with a sponge.


The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.

From what I can gather, this is related to the Will of the Force (which is the main antagonist Plagueis contends with whenever he tries to manipulate midichlorians, as they seem to have a will, like a hivemind intelligence that resists forceful attempts to manipulate them). If it is the will of the Force for X to die at this location, at this time, then that is precisely how and where and when they will die, and there is nothing you can do to change that....

At least, not yet. But as we know Plagueis learns how to manipulate not only others midichlorians, but his own. He gains control over life and death itself. He can not only override the Will of the Force and shift that inexorable moment of death to some further point in the future, but he can now, as if he himself is speaking as the Will of the Force, command the midichlorians to induce inexorable death in other beings. That is basically what the Veruna passage is talking about, and why it's said that Plagueis "instructed" (past tense) Veruna's midichlorians to disperse. He was not doing it actively, it was something he willed to happen - he gave a command, and it was being carried out with no active effort on his part.

To go into the mechanics a little bit further...

We know that 1. Healing is harder than killing and 2. Using Midichlorian manipulation on yourself is harder than using it on someone else. Which means that Plagueis healing himself with midichlorian manipulation while Sidious was blasting him with lightning, "stopping short of defending himself", he was doing the hardest possible variation of the technique.

Basically, healing yourself > healing others > killing others.

We also know that he can either do this passively, or he can put active effort into accelerating the process.

In terms of midichlorians themselves: we know the following about them:

-The more you have, the stronger your connection to the Force (typically). At a certain number of midichlorians, you become Force sensitive (IIRC it's 5000). At a certain point, you also die (IIRC it's about 1250 or thereabouts). And I think the average midichlorian count for a human is 2500? Feel free to correct me as the numbers themselves aren't that important. We know that midichlorian testing machines only went up 20,000, and Anakin blew way past any form of conventional measurement, he was basically off the scales (which, him having the potential to succeed The Father, makes a great deal of sense in hindsight). We know that Tenebrous was amazed at the prospect that someone could create a being who would have 12,000 or more midichlorians. All of that is to say that, Yoda and Sidious' midichlorian counts likely fall somewhere between 12-20k. I'm thinking it's much more conservative to say they are closer to 10k than 20k. So, if sheer quantity of midichlorians was the only factor, we could say that we use Plagueis' killing of Veruna to estimate how long he would need to kill someone with 10k+ midichlorians. Veruna would have about 2500 midichlorians roughly, and if we adjust for the fact Plagueis let him die passively and slowly rather than accelerating the process, then he could reduce even someone with 12k+ midichlorians to being very weak, to barely Force sensitive, to non-Force sensitive, to physically decrepit, to dead in a very short amount of time. At least, he could reduce their power at such a rate that they would basically be incapable of competing with him because they would be so weakened, to say nothing of the shock they might experienced at the rapid decline in their abilities.

-We also know, however, that quantity isn't everything. Midichlorians differ qualitatively. It's noted that the Yinchorri species, despite having fewer than 5000 midichlorians, a rather pitiful amount rendering them "non-Force sensitive", they were still "strong in the Force" because, through some kind of evolutionary mechanism, the few midichlorians they did possess evolved a Force-shield defense mechanism which could scale from just being an individual shield up to a many km-wide shield, which shrouded their presence/minds from powerful Force sensitive creatures. Because of this, even to Plagueis, Yinchorri are impervious to telepathic manipulation. Several other species, by their nature, are immune to telepathic suggestion for the most part. Plagueis managed to undo the quality of a Yinchorri's midichlorians to undermine it's evolved defence to Force manipulations (and the wider implications of that in a combative context - the ability to strip an opponent of their powers - can't be understated), but the point is, there is far more to midichlorians than just quantity. They are also defined by their unique qualities, characteristics and strength.

-We know that different midichlorians govern the use of different powers. For example, when Tenebrous separated some of his midichlorians from the purview of the Will of the Force, dubbing them his maxichlorians, he selectively chose only the midichlorians which governed his powers of Foresight to separate. So again: the specific midichlorians which let Tenebrous use Foresight were the ones he turned into maxichlorians. He kept the ability to use telekinesis, tutaminis, lightning and all of his other powers, but specifically lost his power of Foresight because of the midichlorians he chose to transmute and separate from the Force. This, also, readily explains why certain Force users are more naturally talented at certain powers and not others. For example, Zannah took to Sorcery naturally, whereas Bane could barely wrap his head around the field even though he spent years studying and training in it. We all know that the Force runs strong in certain families, e.g the Skywalkers, Revan's bloodline, Talzin, Tulak Hord, Koon's, etc etc, however, we also see that there is a hereditary element to which powers get passed on. The Halcyon bloodline, which included Nejaa Halcyon and his grandson Corran Horn, had an unusually poor ability to use telekinesis, but had a savant talent for tutaminis - absorbing any kind of energy and repurposing it for their ends. The only explanation for this coincidence which makes sense is that this predisposition to tutaminis and absent ability to use telekinesis was genetic and passed down from father to son. And as established with Tenebrous, that means that the Halcyons had very, very few "telekinesis" midichlorians, but an abnormal amount of "tutaminis" ones. Or perhaps they had both in good enough quantities but for some reason they were less able to access the TK ones and abnormally predisposed to activating or accessing the tutaminis ones?

-Finally, we know that midichlorians vary in their individual strength and tenacity, and that more Force sensitive individuals, and also individuals with more willpower and mastery, have a better grasp and control over their own body than weaker individuals. And to add to this, we know there is a genetic component to midichlorians in terms of what powers manifest in an individual and with what intensity, but this is also modified by what powers they choose to focus on training, and what powers they neglect training. Point being: Yoda isn't just extremely powerful because of the amount of midichlorians he has. He's extremely powerful because he has an extreme amount of control and mastery over his available power. He may not have the same maniacal pursuit of power and reaching his full potential that a Sith does, but the point remains, Yoda's midichlorians, even on a pound to pound qualitative basis, are likely far more tenacious and resistant to influence than those of your average non-Force sensitive. And Yoda himself, being one of the most powerful and masterful Jedi to have ever existed, will surely have more awareness and control over his own midichlorians and power, and thus ability to resist influence, than a non-Force user.

Now... the final piece of the puzzle is this: while I've made a fairly compelling case for why Yoda would be able to defend, to some extent, his midichlorians being manipulated, the fact remains that perceiving and manipulating midichlorians is a field of Force study exclusively pursued by the late Banite Sith. In addition, Plagueis was engineered from his conception, by Tenebrous, as a being who was peculiarly talented in the art of perceiving and manipulating midichlorians, even compared to the handful of beings, like Tenebrous, who turned this branch of Force knowledge into a science. Nobody came even close to the level of mastery, skill and control of manipulating midichlorians that Plagueis wielded. If we use ragdoll-tier scaling chain gaps as an analogy, every time Plagueis mastered a new way to manipulate midichlorians, it was as if each link the scaling chain became exponentially more powerful as more and more powerful beings get added to the ragdoll chain. He goes from not even being able to budge midichlorians in the beginning of the book to creating, destroying and altering them on a fundamental level like his playthings by the end. And even at the beginning of the book he can do things with midichlorians that Yoda likely has no conception of. So I find it hard to believe even Yoda has a good defence prepared for dealing with an attack on his midichlorians from Plagueis.

All that said... while the potential applications of midichlorian manipulation basically amount to reality warping (control of life and death, engineering the ability to learn and create any new Force power imaginable through sheer will, stripping others of their powers, altering the qualitative properties of existing midichlorians, separating midichlorians from the Force itself essentially making them blind/ostracised from the Force's circle of influence, and so on), it doesn't seem to me, at the moment, like Plagueis reached that level of power yet. For all we know, he could have used his powers to give himself celestial-status and live an as immortal deity ruling over the galaxy, or if not that, at least he could engineer the birth of such a being and attempt to transfer his own essence into theirs at the moment of their birth. But it's clear that he was, in a relatively short amount of time, surpassed by his apprentice following his death - Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever, and that declaration does factor in Plagueis' own use of the Force, and Yoda did nigh-stalemate Sidious in RotS in a contest that saw the use of their full range of powers.

So, what I think makes the most sense is this: Plagueis would be able to use midichlorian manipulation to some level of success against someone like Yoda. But rather than it being like Force Drain affect where Yoda is fighting a battle of attrition, trying to quickly kill Plagueis as his midichlorians wink out one by one, I think it would be more like a telepathic battle of wills. As in, Plagueis would try to exert influence over Yoda's midichlorians, and Yoda would feel that pressure, as if someone was reaching into his body with an invisible hand and trying to upend his physical being on a fundamental level (which doesn't sound pleasant to me, it sounds horribly unnatural), but Yoda, being more intimately familiar with his own body and power than anyone, would mount an extremely strong defence to that influence. And with Plagueis having to exert active effort and attention to this battle of wills over Yoda's midichlorians, that opens up the possibility for Yoda to fight back and close the distance.

So, again, while I have to stress that Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation is an ability so unnatural, so indefensible, and so occult that it would allow him to punch disproportionately above his own weight class of Force power (and perhaps it would work wonders on beings like Anakin Skywalker or Starkiller who for all their immense power are nowhere near as masterful or in-control as Yoda), it does seem clear to me that based on most available evidence, RotS Sheev has surpassed his master for the purposes of a fight, and Yoda being his near-equal, would mean he too would probably beat Plagueis.

Granted, even the higher ups like Leland Chee and basically any author you have spoken to, have said that supremacy quotes and in-universe power rankings/levels/hierarchies are subjective, and most are only used for gameplay purposes. So it's not as if there is some rule saying Plagueis always has to lose to RotS Sheev, that in no circumstance he can ever win (James Luceno thought Plagueis would "undermine" his apprentice if they fought for real, which to me sounds like it has something to do with midichlorian manipulation rather than him just overpowering Sheev), but I think more often than not, Plagueis would lose to Sheev or Yoda. Sheev, in particular, is so naturally/unnaturally gifted with the dark side he basically amounts to the Force's antichrist, and that's probably a big part of why he surpassed his master even though Plagueis was for all intents and purposes bordering on godhood.

Now for this thread, I actually do think Plagueis wins. Plagueis is sorely underrated as a duelist, especially as a tactician, and a lot of the preconceived notions about him (that he didn't like lightsaber combat therefore he didn't train in it, was out of practice or was just never really good at it) are very silly, because they equally apply to Sidious who kept his lightsabers stored away for over a decade, and busied himself primarily with political maneuvering than practicing with a lightsaber or even studying the Force, and yet, Sheev was still described as essentially flawless lightsaber duelist. Plagueis' duel against Venamis is one where Venamis had an incomprehensibly lopsided edge going in (knowing how Plagueis personally fights, being able to predict his every move before he even makes it), and Plagueis, through the use of nothing other than a manipulation of strategy, changing the tempo of the fight and falling into a kind of meditative, out-of-body trance, suckered Venamis into over-committing and then destroyed him as soon as the moment presented itself. And Venamis is a Banite Sith with decades of combat training from Tenebrous, who had a verifiably massive midichlorian count (because not only can late Banite Sith view midichlorian quantity in other beings with a degree of precision beyond the midichlorian testing machines the Jedi use, but Tenebrous can see them with even more abnormal precision than Plagueis could at one time), and yet even with all that and the aforementioned knowledge advantage, Plagueis essentially beat him through sheer skill. I think he would handle himself just fine against Mace in a duel, especially given that the RotS novel, the main source used to prove Mace's parity with Sheev, strongly implies that Sheev was holding back his full potency and putting on a show for Anakin. I can easily envision that the fight lasting "forever" description Mace had with Sheev could easily apply to Plagueis too, especially if Plagueis employs the same out-of-body technique he did against Venamis.

It's also clear, however, that Mace is not as adept at defending against and employing Force powers in combat as Yoda, and even Yoda struggled to hold back Sidious' lightning. Mace is not equal to Yoda or Sidious per the Jedi's respective fights against Sidious and a litany of sources all repeating that Yoda is superior to Mace even as of RotS. So if you add in Plagueis' far, far more violent use of the Force to Mace's own, and his use of midichlorian manipulation, along with his more than respectable skills as a duelist (at least in his ability to stall the opponent long enough to find an opening to exploit), I can easily see Plagueis beating Mace. In short: Plagueis' unnatural grasp of the Force would be "beyond Vaapad".
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

on October 3rd 2019, 12:30 am
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Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis - Page 2 Empty Re: Mace Windu vs Darth Plagueis

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