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Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 5:49 pm
Round 1: Sabers Only

Round 2: Force Only

Round 3: All-Out

You must provide a reason for why you think Wyyrlok or Caedus wins :p
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 6:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Jacen based off his performance against Luke amped Jaina.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 6:41 pm
Wyyrlock getting all the attention lately. 

He wins.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 8:40 pm
Wyyrlok
IdrisianGraecus
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 8:58 pm
Jacen.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 24th 2019, 9:54 pm
Raisins from anyone?
The Ellimist
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 12:04 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jacen based off his performance against Luke amped Jaina.

Yeah pretty much.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 12:34 am
Wyyrlock in all.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 1:01 am
Luke amped Jaina is a completely unknown entity though.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 1:29 am
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Luke amped Jaina is a completely unknown entity though.

Indeed.

It's predicated on the idea that Jacen should expect !mad LoTF Luke fighting him, and because Caedus didn't remark about !Luke amped Jaina having wildly different a power level that must mean he's... doing something...  


But mad!Luke has had a visible struggle against Lumiya (he thought she killed Mara at the time)

“One—two—three—four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn’t pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.


Lumiya held the whip handle in both hands like a staff and blocked his downward sweep. For a moment they were locked in a stalemate, pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.”


Excerpt From: Karen Traviss. “Sacrifice.”


So I guess we can raise Lumiya, the Emporer's thrall, not even worthy to be apprentice level (and someone Luke remarked was still weaker than Vader in LOTF) above DE Palps. 



OT : Wyllrock wins given that he fought the most powerful version of the character that took-out Aurra Sing as a Padwan.  Darkside amped Jacen struggled against her much older, debauched and decrepit incarnation and gets power increments at best - that may or may not have made up for the darkside amp he experienced in the fight.


Last edited by Ziggy on September 25th 2019, 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 7:49 am
@Ziggy wrote:Wyllrock wins given that he fought the most powerful version of the character that took-out Aurra Sing as a Padwan.  Darkside amped Jacen struggled against her much older, debauched and decrepit incarnation and gets power increments at best - that may or may not have made up for the darkside amp he experienced in the fight.

Proof she was weaker in LOTF than in the PT to any significant degree? Considering that the Aurra sing databank mentions “she once again resurfaced as a deadly bounty hunter” I question the idea of her having decreased. Also, Jacen literally restrained himself from using the dark side in the fight. 

OT-Wyyrlok wins.
Greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 8:36 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Also, Jacen literally restrained himself from using the dark side in the fight. 

Here's me debunking this exactly a month ago

And here's you conceding it
MasterCilghal
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 9:07 am
@Greysentinel365 wrote:
Also, Jacen literally restrained himself from using the dark side in the fight. 

Here's me debunking this exactly a month ago

And here's you conceding it
You’re misinterpreting what I said. All I said was that Jacen did have the amp. My point here is that at several points in the fight he decided to restrain himself from using the dark side because of Allana’s presence. 

Spoiler:
You’re also forgetting that opinions can change.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 9:18 am
@MasterCilghal wrote:
Proof she was weaker in LOTF than in the PT to any significant degree?


I don't have any candy bar quotes if that's what you're asking.  Just my head and some thinking skills I've developed over the years (not a whole lot  Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III 2266747095 ) 


 Considering that the Aurra sing databank mentions “she once again resurfaced as a deadly bounty hunter” I question the idea of her having decreased.


The quote neither confirms nor denies the notion. 

Several of us have assumed she's weaker because of her livelihood in Exile.  Drinking and debauchery has cheapened the power and physicality of others: Cade Skywalker, Rham Kota.  And the absence of proper training itself rusts skills too: Ben Kenobi.  Why not apply the same standard?  It seems to fit.


 Also, Jacen literally restrained himself from using the dark side in the fight. 


Observe Grey - not the dark side in its entirety, only lightning. 


OT-Wyyrlok wins.

Good man.
MasterCilghal
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 10:07 am

@Ziggy wrote:I don't have any candy bar quotes if that's what you're asking.  Just my head and some thinking skills I've developed over the years (not a whole lot  Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III 2266747095 ) 
I’m sorry, but I need more than just an assumption. If I were to present that in a formal debate... well, it would be considered a weak argument. 



@Ziggy wrote:The quote neither confirms nor denies the notion. 
While I agree that it doesn’t necessarily confirm the notion, it does prove that she is still a deadly opponent. I mean, bounty hunters like Boba Fett have been able to compete with opponents who are admittedly above their own level (see Kenobi a few months after his exile or Vader) thanks to their equipment, which was a factor in the Aurra sing fight, as she had knives and a detonator. This is also noted to be what makes her effective: 


Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III B1280110
Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III 9c888410
Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III C28c2f10



See? she relies heavily on her arsenal (a factor which was not present in the fight with Aayla, btw) 


@Ziggy wrote:Several of us have assumed she's weaker because of her livelihood in Exile.  Drinking and debauchery has debased the power and physicality of others: Cade Skywalker, Rham Kota.  And the absence of proper training itself rusts skills too: Ben Kenobi.  Why not apply the same standard?  It seems to fit.

Because Aurra is stated to still be active (obviously as a bounty hunter) by the time of LOTF: 

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III E1d0fe10
“Still” (correct me if i’m wrong) means she never stopped being a bounty hunter in the first place.



@Ziggy wrote:Observe Grey - not the dark side in its entirety, only lightning.
Are you sure about that? 

 
Tempest wrote:No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."
Here it is literally stated that he did not want his daughter see him using the dark side. In that specific moment it was force lightning but the quote explains why he decides not to use the dark side itself (which would include force rage as well) from this point, which seems consistent with the rest of the fight in which Jacen simply defends Allana from Sing rather than attempting to attack her. It is also important to note that Jacen’s action here is not just a decision, but more of an inability to bring himself to do use said abilities  which, considering that they all require anger, would have applied to all others DS abilities as well. 
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 11:12 am
@The Ellimist wrote:
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jacen based off his performance against Luke amped Jaina.

Yeah pretty much.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III 1289255181
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 2:25 pm
Why is Luke amped Jaina at all impressive?
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 2:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I'll put out something later (I mean it this time). Not sure when but I will (This weekend at the latest).
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 25th 2019, 9:54 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:I’m sorry, but I need more than just an assumption.


Greedy AF. 


If I were to present that in a formal debate... well, it would be considered a weak argument. 


It depends on the assumption and how you got there.


While I agree that it doesn’t necessarily confirm the notion, it does prove that she is still a deadly opponent.


Non sequitur.  Being considered deadly is a matter of relativity.  Is she as deadly compared to her younger and more occupied years?   

I mean, bounty hunters like Boba Fett have been able to compete with opponents who are admittedly above their own level (see Kenobi a few months after his exile or Vader) thanks to their equipment


I don't see the relevance as Aurra is more into lightsaber and Force augmentation compared to Boba's levitation and shooting.  Her equipment is second stage to the more direct/conventional methods she employs - straight up lightsaber combat with Force power.... like virtually everyone else.


which was a factor in the Aurra sing fight, 


An overstated one.

 
she had knives


Oh my.


and a detonator.


Which is redundant without an explosion.  Something lacking in the Jacen fight.


See? she relies heavily on her arsenal 


She relies heavily on her lightsaber.  The gadgets are auxiliary in most fights or plain absent.  Don't take my word for it.  A precursory flick through the source material featuring Aurra should bare all.  


a factor which was not present in the fight with Aayla, btw


Nah man.  She just bent the rules of engagement by firing a blaster at Aayla, btw.

  
she never stopped being a bounty hunter in the first place.


Firstly, the discount-bin source that can't even regurgitate the facts or do math : 


"still active at the age of 75 - '"

Fact' file#18283923 



"Aurra Sing was a nine-year-old Jedi trainee who was captured by pirates more than seventy-five standard years ago" 

Tempest

She's 84

Secondly, her post-empire days were spent doing Sci-Fi crack in strip clubs with other criminals.  If she was killing, I don't think it makes up all the debauching in between jobs.  Moderate practice still couldn't save Kenobi from declining in Exile.  I doubt it's much different for her, probably worse considering her age and livelihood.


Here it is literally stated that he did not want his daughter see him using the dark side.


Correct.


In that specific moment it was force lightning


Correct. 


It would include force rage as well


Doubtful, given that lightning is such a more visibly pronounced power than augmentation - duh.  To an untrained todler - which Alana is - Force alignment would be indistinguishable just by observing a lightsaber fight.  Furthermore, she probably wouldn't have the mental perceptions to see the duel in the first instance.  


 seems consistent with the rest of the fight in which Jacen simply defends Allana from Sing rather than attempting to attack her.


... He was disarmed, his Force pushes being shrugged off and had denied himself Lightning.  So he dislocated her knee - which counts as attacking her.  


It is also important to note that Jacen’s action here is not just a decision, but more of an inability to bring himself to do use said abilities  which, considering that they all require anger, would have applied to all others DS abilities as well. 


I have no reason to believe his anger disappeared. 

His fear - another empowering dark emotion - is only increased with Alana's presence and the pain in his kidney still throbbing.  All emotional states that resonate with Darkside empowerment.
MasterCilghal
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 26th 2019, 12:37 pm
Greedy AF. 

Sorry if you feel that way, but I don’t think i’m asking for too much. I think that when debating you should always back up your claims with proof from the lore. I myself have made the mistake of not doing so in the past. 



@Ziggy wrote:
Non sequitur.  Being considered deadly is a matter of relativity.  Is she as deadly compared to her younger and more occupied years?
Well, it is interesting to note that the quote doesn’t mention her having weakened thorough the years. For instance, Kenobi by ANH is considered still formidable but weaker than in his younger years, and similarly for other characters (such as the ones you mentioned in the earlier post) while Aurra is considered “once again deadly” is particularly interesting. But I agree with your general case. The quote neither proves nor disproves my case. 




@Ziggy wrote:I don't see the relevance as Aurra is more into lightsaber and Force augmentation compared to Boba's levitation and shooting.  Her equipment is second stage to the more direct/conventional methods she employs - straight up lightsaber combat with Force power.... like virtually everyone else.
The sources say otherwise though. The article in the fact file I sent you before mentions, as I already said, that that her primary weapons are blasters and knives combined with her lightsaber rather than just the lightsaber and the force. It makes perfect sense when you consider that Aurra’s training was based around 4 different combat techniques which obviously differ from that of jedi: 


An Anzati education would be more than enough to make anyone an untouchable killer, but Sing had no less than four distinct educations in the science of combat. Hands down, she was one of the deadliest fighters in the Galaxy.
—The New Essential Guide to Characters


@Ziggy wrote:An overstated one.


 


@Ziggy wrote:Oh my.
They were important. In the first stage of the fight Jacen was taken off guard by them and brought to his knees by the initial pain. Had it not been for those, the fight might have ended before. The same applies to the detonator, as I will explain shorty. 


Which is redundant without an explosion.  Something lacking in the Jacen fight.

The detonator worked quite well as a distraction, even if the explosion never happened. Had it not been for that, Jacen would have been able to overwhelm her mentally and end the fight before it had even started. 



She relies heavily on her lightsaber.  The gadgets are auxiliary in most fights or plain absent.  Don't take my word for it.  A precursory flick through the source material featuring Aurra should bare all.  
Well, the article also states that usually, when fighting jedi, she chooses to fight and kill them with her lightsaber. 


Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III D364ea10

That’s all. It is interesting, I might add, that against Jacen she elected to use the detonator to distract him and the knives.




Nah man.  She just bent the rules of engagement by firing a blaster at Aayla, btw.

Sure, but that was after she became emotionally unbalanced due to Aayla taunting her (something she’s noted to be particularly weak against), reducing her effectiveness in a duel and, by extension, with her weapons.
  



@Ziggy wrote:Firstly, the discount-bin source that can't even regurgitate the facts or do math : 


"still active at the age of 75 - '"

Fact' file#18283923 



"Aurra Sing was a nine-year-old Jedi trainee who was captured by pirates more than seventy-five standard years ago" 

Tempest

She's 84

It’s unfortunate that the “discount-bin” source I used is the complete SW encyclopedia, which is told by an omniscient narrator and therefore 100% accurate from a lore prospective: 

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III 72a1e410
(Credit to @Azronger
So her “still” being a bounty hunter is 100% canon.  using the math thing doesn’t help your case. 


Secondly, her post-empire days were spent doing Sci-Fi crack in strip clubs with other criminals.  If she was killing, I don't think it makes up all the debauching in between jobs.  Moderate practice still couldn't save Kenobi from declining in Exile.  I doubt it's much different for her, probably worse considering her age and livelihood.
Again, Do you have proof for that? 



@Ziggy wrote:Doubtful, given that lightning is such a more visibly pronounced power than augmentation - duh.  To an untrained todler - which Alana is - Force alignment would be indistinguishable just by observing a lightsaber fight.  Furthermore, she probably wouldn't have the mental perceptions to see the duel in the first instance.  
I agree that it would be that way by observing a lightsaber duel, but you are forgetting that someone like Allana could have sensed him using his rage , which iirc happens once later in the series. I’ll have to check out.


@Ziggy wrote:
I have no reason to believe his anger disappeared. 

His fear - another empowering dark emotion - is only increased with Alana's presence and the pain in his kidney still throbbing.  All emotional states that resonate with Darkside empowerment.

I never questioned the idea of his anger still being present, what I am saying is that Jacen couldn’t bring himself to use lightning (and by extension DS abilities as well because they all require anger) against Sing, which would explain why he elected to dislocate her knee.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 28th 2019, 7:52 pm
Cilghal wrote:It’s unfortunate that the “discount-bin” source I used is the complete SW encyclopedia


It's unfortunate how the self-fellating SW Encyclopedia got the details wrong.  

As it pertains to the discussion... it belongs in the 


Spoiler:
Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Open90-black


I disregard the Encyclopedia's account of her LOTF appearance.  

It's incorrect.  Claiming she's 75 by 40-aby. This would make her thirteen during AOTC in 22-bby contradicting far too many sources circa that era.  It also poorly details the events.  Omitting context where context was necessary and failing the uninformed reader. 

With only Encylopdia's anecdote and not the book in question, one might surmise that Jacen's kid daughter was the one to fight Sing.  It's very possible to read it that way without mention of Jacen's interference. 


Spoiler:
Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III E1d0fe10
 

Which begs the question of why supplementary sources are even useful here?  

How does a passage merely reciting the events - and not very well at that - overrule the events themselves? 

Given the ethos I have towards the material, the inclusion of one or more dime-store candy bar quotes doesn't need to re-affirm my position on Sing.  There are enough chesnuts claiming either Maul or Qui Gon were the greatest and most powerful (as opposed to just one of) warriors ever to expose the tripe.  

I analyse the stories themselves and come to a conclusion based on cold hard logic with corroborative examples.  When you look at people younger than Sing was in LOTF, a decline happens sans huge power to compensate - IE; Dooku-tier and above.  When you look at people living in decadence, the decline is more pronounced - Cade/Kota.  Aurra has both factors tarnishing her skills.  She's getting on and spends her post-empire days debauching with crime lords.  Why is maintaining her prime of such importance when the pond is a lot smaller.  Being sent to kill children instead of taking on the golden age of the Jedi order? 


 the complete SW encyclopedia is told by an omniscient narrator and therefore 100% accurate from a lore prospective


Heh. 

Let's get one thing straight



"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films."


"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play."


"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract."


- LFL policy by Chris Cherasi



From a lore perspective, the only 100% facts exist in the six movies themselves in spite of which lower-tier sources label themselves omniscient.  This just another window.   It doesn't take precedence over other C-canon material and as an ancillary source, I'd argue the opposite. 


Cilghal wrote: But I agree with your general case. The quote neither proves nor disproves my case. 


Indeed. 


Cilghal wrote:Well, the article also states that usually, when fighting jedi, she chooses to fight and kill them with her lightsaber. 


Indeed...


The sources say otherwise though.


The sources are unimportant.  The takeaways are how she employs combat 1 on 1 against Jedi -  everything else coming second to the saber.  


The knives were important. In the first stage of the fight Jacen was taken off guard by them and brought to his knees by the initial pain. Had it not been for those, the fight might have ended before. 


Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Tenor


That pain fuelled him...

Allowed him to make a comeback. 

Had she not kicked him with a bladed-toe, the fight might have ended sooner... with a different victor.  If that's what you meant anyway...


The detonator worked quite well as a distraction, even if the explosion never happened. Had it not been for that, Jacen would have been able to overwhelm her mentally and end the fight before it had even started. 


Jacen needed all his effort and Darkside power just to keep her mind at bay, only at that advantage via surprise element rather than confronting her in a mano-e-mano fashion.  The detonator served as a useful tool to escape a situation she wouldn't have been in with proper awareness.  And that's where it's usefulness ended.  

All the important takeaways as they relate to the power levels happen after that.  We see in the fight, she has parity to his to force augmentation even while Jacen is amped.  Demonstrating greater strength and speed in the fight.  She isn't fazed by his force push, when true gaps in power seem to be emphasized by with an unconscious ragdoll-victim.  Jacen wins because of greater skill, but the details of the fight make it ripe for comparisons throughout his sith career.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on September 29th 2019, 4:03 am
@Ziggy wrote:Which begs the question of why supplementary sources are even useful here?  

How does a passage merely reciting the events - and not very well at that - overrule the events themselves? 

Given the ethos I have towards the material, the inclusion of one or more dime-store candy bar quotes doesn't need to re-affirm my position on Sing.  There are enough chesnuts claiming either Maul or Qui Gon were the greatest and most powerful (as opposed to just one of) warriors ever to expose the tripe.  

I analyse the stories themselves and come to a conclusion based on cold hard logic with corroborative examples.  When you look at people younger than Sing was in LOTF, a decline happens sans huge power to compensate - IE; Dooku-tier and above.  When you look at people living in decadence, the decline is more pronounced - Cade/Kota.  Aurra has both factors tarnishing her skills.  She's getting on and spends her post-empire days debauching with crime lords.  Why is maintaining her prime of such importance when the pond is a lot smaller.  Being sent to kill children instead of taking on the golden age of the Jedi order? 
The fact that there is a mistake (Aurra’s age, because the other isn’t a mistake, it’s simply an accurate description of the events without mentioning Jacen’s involvement) within the source does not mean that the entire section on Aurra is completely wrong. Mistakes of this kind are present within SW novels as well, but that does mean the entire novel is to be disregarded and considered non-canon. As for the latter comparison, I would agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that Aurra’s whereabouts and history between the end of the empire and LOTF are almost completely unknown, beside for the quote I presented, which actually supports my case of her remaining a bounty hunter. In the case of the other characters you mentioned, we know what happened to them and we have explicit confirmation of them decreasing in power/skill. Regarding Aurra’s age, while it is true it might be an impairment to her in general, she still has the force to compensate and you haven’t yet proven she decreased in power. 


@Ziggy wrote:From a lore perspective, the only 100% facts exist in the six movies themselves in spite of which lower-tier sources label themselves omniscient.  This just another window.   It doesn't take precedence over other C-canon material and as an ancillary source, I'd argue the opposite. 

Using that quote is kind of a moot point. This debate is based on C-canon material, in this case the novel and the encyclopedia. For all intents and purposes, the novel is an in-universe source, as it’s told from the point of view of the characters involved. The encyclopedia, that was my point, is effectively an out-of-universe one as it’s told from he point of view of an omniscient narrator, and is therefore morte reliable. I was wrong in saying “100% canon” in a general sense, but not within the context of this debate,as the movies are not involved here. 


@Ziggy wrote:The  sources are unimportant.  The takeaways are how she employs combat 1 on 1 against Jedi -  everything else coming second to the saber.  

Which was not the case with Jacen...while it was against Aayla. 








@Ziggy wrote:That pain fuelled him...

Allowed him to make a comeback. 

Had she not kicked him with a bladed-toe, the fight might have ended sooner... with a different victor.  If that's what you meant anyway...

Obviously I didn’t mean that... but the pain did bring him to his knees initially and it’s not made clear whether or not it was fueling him, all we know is that it didn’t weaken him. While it  should have theoretically fueled him, his relationship with pain is much more complex. We see on some occasions (the Luke fight for example) that it does have this effect, but against Jaina and Katarn, it made him weaker as he needed to use the force to sustain himself. It’s entirely possible the latter might have been the case here. 



@Ziggy wrote:Jacen needed all his effort and Darkside power just to keep her mind at bay, only at that advantage via surprise element rather than confronting her in a mano-e-mano fashion.  The detonator served as a useful tool to escape a situation she wouldn't have been in with proper awareness.  And that's where it's usefulness ended.  

While Jacen did suprise her, had she been his equal in power she should have been able to defend from the attack, but the novel mentions, interestingly, that “she wasn’t strong enough”. So that should be more than enough to prove that Jacen is Aurra’s superior in force power. The detonator proved to be a good distraction. 


@Ziggy wrote:All the important takeaways as they relate to the power levels happen after that.  We see in the fight, she has parity to his to force augmentation even while Jacen is amped.  Demonstrating greater strength and speed in the fight.  She isn't fazed by his force push, when true gaps in power seem to be emphasized by with an unconscious ragdoll-victim.  Jacen wins because of greater skill, but the details of the fight make it ripe for comparisons throughout his sith career.

All we can prove is that Jacen cannot ragdoll Aurra. The presence of Allana, Aurra’s equipment and, to an extent, Jacen’s mistakes in the fight make it too circumstantial to be taken as an indication of parity between the two. Then there is the matter of Jacen’s power growth, which will be addressed by other members of the forum in future blogs and posts.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III

on October 3rd 2019, 4:26 pm
The fact that there is a mistake (Aurra’s age, because the other isn’t a mistake, it’s simply an accurate description of the events without mentioning Jacen’s involvement)


At least you admit the former. 

The latter is just a poor summary with context lost in translation - a supplementary source that doesn't explain the events well hasn't much use in elucidating the true nature of Star Wars.  Why is it even here? 


I would agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that Aurra’s whereabouts and history between the end of the empire and LOTF are almost completely unknown, beside for the quote I presented, which actually supports my case of her remaining a bounty hunter.


Still a bounty hunter?  Yeh.  Hence why she was sought out.

Still an expert Jedi killer in the Jedi heyday?  Nope. 

A passage in the Tempest laments this fact of course.  

One part of the equation is the environment, how it pushes the players to evolve... or in this case, stagnate.  Considering the arena doesn't require the same level of honed skill, then lack of motivation to stay in top-form is the first red flag.  Combine with a penchant for self-indulging amidst drug lords, youth slipping away each year, means it's safe to assume she declined.  In fact, any other conclusion is unlikely.  I don't need cookie-box quotes to tell me the obvious.  Just in the same way I can assume various sporting has-beens won't be in the best shape of their lives in decadence, Aurra isn't either. 

And the fact Aurra was off the radar for such a long time just means she didn't do anything of note.  It's another point in my corner, rather than an appeal to incredulity.


 Regarding Aurra’s age, while it is true it might be an impairment to her in general, she still has the force to compensate and you haven’t yet proven she decreased in power. 


She needs to increase in power to compensate.

Can you prove she did?


Using that quote is kind of a moot point. 


It proves that your "omniscient source" is not the epitome of factuality. 


This debate is based on C-canon material, in this case the novel and the encyclopedia. For all intents and purposes, the novel is an in-universe source, as it’s told from the point of view of the characters involved. The encyclopedia, that was my point, is effectively an out-of-universe one as it’s told from he point of view of an omniscient narrator, and is therefore morte reliable. 


The whole point of C-canon is that everything is subject to interpretation, a universe where there are no facts - just windows that are foggier than others.  I don't just apply that relationship with the movies but as a means to sift through the discrepancies in C-canon itself. 

Here you're claiming that a short summary of book events is more reliable than the book itself due to the perspective it was written from.  That indignation is cheapened when you consider any out of universe source is still just the interpretation of some author, that isn't Lucas, giving their take.  And if I can point to obvious mistakes in the text then that guarantees the source isn't omniscient. 

Not that this is at all relevant, however.

Aurra continuing to take contracts, despite her years, isn't proof she's at her best.


but the pain did bring him to his knees initially and it’s not made clear whether or not it was fueling him, 


Darth Caedus vs Darth Wyyrlok III Tenor



Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney. A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.  But pain was an old friend of Jacen’s. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.


Excerpt From: Troy Denning. “Tempest.



Also, he was already on the floor when Aurra initially battered him. 


his relationship with pain is much more complex. We see on some occasions (the Luke fight for example) that it does have this effect, but against Jaina and Katarn, it made him weaker as he needed to use the force to sustain himself.


All occasions where many wounds affected him along with fatigue.  Not really relevant to what we're discussing.  Fresh pain, described in the Luke fight for example, does empower him.  And I know he's being empowered in the example we're discussing.  The text tells me so.


While Jacen did suprise her, had she been his equal in power she should have been able to defend from the attack


Unless there is some hidden nature of Force power in battles giving you this conclusion, I disagree.  She'd need to be meeting him with greater power to push him out of his mind.  Just like If I pinned you to a wall when you didn't expect it, and kept you there with all my might, you'd need to be acting with greater power just to get yourself out of that position.  Equal power isn't good enough, because we'd remain in the same spot.  The fact Jacen needed all his dark might just to keep her there without warning - in a branch of force powers of his choosing; mind control - is proof of their parity. 


but the novel mentions, interestingly, that “she wasn’t strong enough”. So that should be more than enough to prove that Jacen is Aurra’s superior in force power. 


Just in the same way Yoda wasn't strong enough to defeat Sidious doesn't make him lesser in force power, Aurra wasn't Jacen's lesser when taken off guard, failing to remove Jacen from her mind.  


Then there is the matter of Jacen’s power growth, which will be addressed by other members of the forum in future blogs and posts


So you tacitly realise the only way Caedus can escape further meming is by stressing growth. 

Well..  All sith grow when they embrace the darkside fully.

The question is, how fully does Jacen actually embrace the dark?

The answer: a lot less then any famous sith lord I can mention in comparison to him, which explains why he'd need to be in an extra normative state of anger (drawing from the rage of his commanders) just to perform acts that a cookie-cutter sith like Exar Kun could do by snapping his fingers.
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