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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:58 am
@MasterCilghal : Solid post like each time. I will try to produce my answer asap but I'm (once again) pretty busy IRL so didn't know when I could do this. 
Just a question: Can we agree on a (finite) number of post before going into the voting phase ? Personnaly I will be ok for 2 posts for each after my response to yours: 1 last countering/argumenting 1 conclusive one.
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:06 am
@xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : Solid post like each time. I will try to produce my answer asap but I'm (once again) pretty busy IRL so didn't know when I could do this. 
Just a question: Can we agree on a (finite) number of post before going into the voting phase ? Personnaly I will be ok for 2 posts for each after my response to yours: 1 last countering/argumenting 1 conclusive one.
I would prefere if we moved directly into the conclusive post after your response, as I have other SS to continue. Of course if you absolutely want 2 posts each after your response we can do that.
xolthol
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:36 am
@MasterCilghal I'm perfectly fine with it. I have only say 2 posts in order to let you have the possibility to use all of your arguments (if you were keeping something in reserve)
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:39 am
I can informally judge if both parties agree.
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on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:24 pm
I would agree. @Xolthol?
xolthol
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:45 pm
I agree .... Tbf I agree on anyone who can argument his vote (at least by 2 or 3 sentences).
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:58 pm
Excellent. And, don’t worry, i’ve Already used the arguments I needed.
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on Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:35 pm
@MasterCilghal Good post.
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on Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:03 pm
Excellent post.
xolthol
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:41 pm
@MasterCilghal : I fail to open the link with WriteUrl. Can you verify if its works with you ?
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:50 pm
@xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : I fail to open the link with WriteUrl. Can you verify if its works with you ?
I am terribly sorry. Unfortunately I can’t help you as it works fine to me (i’ve Just tried to open it). Try to open it a few times more. If it still doesn’t work i can link you to the RT where they can be found.
xolthol
xolthol

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:45 am
@MasterCilghal: it failed again and again. Can you give me the link to the RT pls
xolthol
xolthol

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:34 pm
ERROR OF MANIPULATION


Last edited by xolthol on Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ERROR OF MANIPULATION)
MasterCilghal
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:56 am
@xolthol wrote:ERROR OF MANIPULATION
?
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SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 Empty Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

on Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:47 pm

*THE SWORD STILL STAND*







~ACCOLADES AND QUOTES~

1°)"THE" quote:

The quote may exist, but I’ve already debunked it (and you’ve provided no rebuttal) so i guess my points about it being a simple hyperbole or, more generally, figure of speech still stand. The best use you can have for this quote is that of a very generic accolade, that even admittedly unimpressive characters like Cilghal have
 You didn't debunked the quote, you have just said that she cannot be at the same time the equal to youglings and council members (something that I already said in my first post) so that the quote is "vague" and you can dismiss it.
 
Now lets make a comparison in order to have a better understanding of the quote. If I say : "I'm the equal of anyone in this forum in term of running a 10 km", am I saying that I am both the equal of the best and the worst runners of this forum ? Obviously no. But what I'm saying is :"No matter who you are, if you belong to this forum, I can run as fast as you on a 10 km".This isn't generic at all. 
A generic quote is : "I'm a good runner", "I run very well". Because in the previous quotes, I haven't precise my frame of reference, (a good runner in comparison to what: an ant, a standard human being, the world champion, a car,...) so the quote is vague, inconsistent.  But here, we have a really precise repository: the people of this forum. With this comparison, it is now  obvious that Jaina can fight equally to anyone in the Jedi Order.   

Tbf, the only thing that you have prooven so far is that GM Luke is also included in the Jedi Order so in this objective quote. So thank you, you just put Jaina on the same level as FOTJ!GM Luke. This will put her clearly leagues beyond Traya as a fighter. 
(I think that I could stop my response here, but this won't be fair to in regard to the work that you have produced SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 3344068304 )

2°)Top of the Jedi Knights:

First of all, the former quote is from Zekk’s  point of view, which makes it questionable to begin with
Indeed, this isn't a 100% objective quote. But this isn't the proof that he is wrong, only that he could be wrong. If you think that, the burden of the proof is on you. 

and he only says i “doubt”, not something like “I am certain”.
Once again, you aren't seeing the figure of speech here. We are facing an understatement, which is common in the literature...  

Furthermore, Zekk has likely rarely met and sparred with Korr, as the latter is a field agent, often alone on various missions, which can be seen from his appearances in the FOTJ novels

Maybe he haven't spare lots of time with Korr, but even though, Korr is more a field agent, there isn't any reason for him not to train while not in mission. 
Now, for the sake of the reflexion, lets assume, that Korr was above Jaina in term of dueling. This would put him really high, knowing that she is "one of the best trained Jedi Knight". Don't you think that when he trained, his superiority will be obvious to other, lesser duelist. Someone like Zekk should (at the very least) have heard of this really good fighter who didn't come often but is a great fighter. If this was the case, do you think that he would assume that Jaina is better than an unknown guy that he never fight before and that he have heard so much about... clearly this is unrealistic. Taken into account the context (Jaina want absolutely to improve her swordmanship), this seems not plausible at all.  

3°)Piloting skills and Force powers:

Being a good pilot also involves other elements, such as control over the ship or the ability to execute certain maneuvers. Being a better pilot doesn’t just involve being a better force user
I've never said it only rely on being a better force user, I've said it mostly rely of you power as a force user. And clearly your reflexes and your anticipation is way more important than  "control over the ship" (assuming we are talking of a ship which isn't totally knew to you) and "ability to execute certains maneuvers", particularly during a fight. You can have a perfect control over your ship and know how to succeed even the more complex and efficient maneuver, if you fail to do this at the right timing, you will just loose badly the fight. And what allow you to do things at the right time: reflexes and anticipation which are both boost by your power in the Force.

Now, lets focus on your examples:

 Mara admits on 2 occasions Jacen is above her in power by a significant degree
Well, it seems that you have missed something in both quotes. Each time, Mara explains that Jacen powerS are above her, not that he is more powerful, just that he have powerthat put him above her as a fighter. So this example is moot.


Or what about Saesee Tiin? His skills as a pilot are noted to be “unrivaled” (so no one comes even close) :
Well, the problem with your quote is the fact that this quotes talk of the "piloting prowess" of Tiin. Obviously this could refer to him as a fighter but it seems that you forgat that in the same book we also have this for Saesee : 

While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows.
The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

In the context, your quote seems way more to refer to some sort prowess as a exploring or intergalactic pilot than a fighter pilot.

This seems further validated by the fact that in Labyrinth of Evil, Anakin should be able to "fly rings around Saesee Tiin" even if he hadn't joined the jedi. Which shows a clear superiority of Anakin above Saesee as a fighter pilot. 

ultimately, it’s clear your logic is fallacious in its foundation as it is contradicted by various examples in the lore
The only thing that is clear here is that your two examples and the theory that you support are clearly false. In addition, you didn't counter my two examples with Luke and Anakin which are the best pilot of their respective era.

4°)Hunting Caedus:

Even after her training under the mandalorian she admitted her solid  inferiority to him
She only admit that she cannot win against Caedus while using only the Force, not that she cannot defeat him.

But the main point is: Jaina is not chosen because of her power in fact she straight-up admits she’s not the equal of the masters.
So now, the opinion of Jaina about her own skills count as the truth... by following this logic, she is even more dangerous as a fighter than Luke during FotJ:

Perhaps they feared Luke Skywalker just that much. And that was a mistake. Luke Skywalker was not the Sword of the Jedi. Jaina was, and now the Sith had trapped themselves inside a locked Temple with her.

FotJ: Apocalypse
Clearly, thank you again to give me once again the win by putting Jaina above FotJ!GM Luke.... 

Now seriously speaking, we know that jedi aren't so accurate when they talk of their own level of power in comparison to other jedi. Just a good example of this in Shatterpoint.  
On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force

Mace Windu
It clearly seems that Depa Billaba is more skillfull than Mace, which is obviously wrong when you see her duel against a non-willing-to-kill Windu.

In addition to this, it is logic for Jaina to try giving her best to be a good Jedi Knight, this didn't include being arrogant or overconfident. So even though she could knew that she was the best, she won't have say it.

 she can take him down because of specific advantages she has that anyone else doesn’t, namely the fact that she is his sister: 

I have already adress the "sister argument" in my previous post and you didn't respond to this. To sum-up my argument :

  • she knows Jacen but he knows her to (reciprocity of knowledge)
  • she agrees on the fact that she didn't know the full extend of Jacen power, including his training under Lumyia and his five years journey 


So clearly, this isn't such a big advantage over Caedus. In addition it clearly seems that the whole point of the discussion between Jaina and the jedi council was to know whether or not she was ready to face Caedus:

Invicible wrote:
"So this was a test," Jaina said

and particularly ready to kill him. 

Invincible wrote:
"Your reservations about killing Caedus-"
Have already been discussed at length in your absence," Kenth assured her


The rest have been already discuss by the Jedi Council.

Invincible wrote:
Jaina's relief did not blind her to the implications of what Saba had just said. "Were right?" she asked. "The Masters have already been discussing this option?"
"Of course," said Kyp. "We're Jedi Masters. Anticipate is what we do."

It seems unlikely for the Jedi Council to only send Jaina with this so little (plausibly no) advantage over Caedus (being his sister), if there is Master(s) way more powerful than her. It is way more logic for her to be (at the very least) in the same league than the peak jedi masters like Kyp, Katarn and Saba.

the masters were initially hesitant, and labeled her as a mere jedi Knight, but were later convinced by Jaina’s speech about the aforementioned advantages she had over her brother, and Han Solo bringing up the “sword of the Jedi” thing
No the masters were hesitant because they weren't sure that she can kill Caedus. This whole discussion is just a test to know whether or not she is ready to do whatever it take to defeat her brother. 

As seen here, Jaina place as one of the top tier jedi of this era is clearly solidified by all of this quotes and accolades. Even by following your logic, I win this fight twice with Jaina being an equal or superior fighter to FotJ!GM Luke.

~KORR SCALING ~

Because we seems to agree on the whole scaling chain (bar Jaina >Korr), I didn't need to add lots anythings to this part except the fact that Jaina is above Jaden.
And after all the quotes that I have given you in the above part, it seems pretty obvious that Jaina is above Korr because:

  • she is the most skilled jedi knight with a lightsaber (so above Jaden)
  • she is combatively on parr with anyone in the jedi order (this include Jaden)
  • she is clearly in the top tier of her era, certainly only surpass by her Uncle


 
Furthermore, in the quote I presented earlier Jaina concedes she is inferior to the masters and some Jedi Knights, a sentiment no one present came out and disproved but that Jaina acknowledged as fact after Corran labeled her as a Jedi Knight, 
I have already explain why this quote isn't relevant.

Jaina might have been referring to Korr as well, considering that he is one of the most impressive knights of the era:
It seems that you take your wish for the reality... The quote only said that Korr "had conducted a long and impressive career as a Jedi Knight". A generic quote so, something that: "that even admittedly unimpressive characters like Cilghal have". We are far from something putting Korr as one of the most impressive knights of the era.

However, it is irrelevant to this debate as there is no indication Jaina is better than him in every any way (in fact all indications are here to the contrary).

~COMPARING CAEDUS'S FIGHTS ~

I wanted to point out that Jaina has already conceded inferiority to the Jedi council (see the quote and argument above) and as such this analysis starts with a weak foundation, as it is not corroborated by the accolades presented to us.
Already busted in the previous part...

 there is a fundamental problem in the former part: the fact that he blocked Katarn’s attack easily was not because the attack was easy to counter in itself , but rather because he knew that lightsaber move so well he could have performed it at any moment with ease. The emphasis is on the lightsaber move, not Katarn’s attack.

Indeed, Jacen know perfectly the moove to counter Kyle attack. But even though he perfectly know a counter, the fact that he use the right one at the right moment is clearly a proof of him perfectly viewing what Kyle was doing and being able to counter it. In contrast, he fail to counter Jaina attack fast enough not to be hurt.

This doesn’t show he wasn’t having difficulty. The first passage merely shows Caedus avoiding Katarn’s attack (which I wouldn’t call not caring) while the second depicts him simply blocking Katarn’s lightsaber. Sure, Caedus was having the upper hand in the duel, but it’s not like Caedus was absolutely dominating
If he can just "stepped back", "rolled out"  when Katarn attacked him this prooved that he is perfectly able to anticipated his ennemy moove up to the point that he is able to dodge most of his strike, showing that he is clearly not under the pressing of an ennemy around his level. If Katarn was not so dominated, he should have been able to put some pression on Caedus, forcing him to block his strike more than just like this: "he negligently swatted it away". Clearly Caedus dominate the fight.


This is made clear in the text immediately after the passages you presented: 
This extract only show that this seems to be a choregraphic fight, which seems logic when you see how easily Caedus block or dodge Katarn strikes while stomping the jedi helping Katarn ("His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet"). 

Considering the fight is described as “even” I would hardly say Caedus was having no difficulty. 
I think that you are forgetting the word "somehow" just before even.  This show that this fight was even in a way (definition of somehow from The Cambridge Dictionary). This more plausible way after understanding what happend in the start of the fight (Caedus ragdoll two jedi knights and dominate Katarn) is the fact that no side have any loose so in a way this is a sort of stalemate. This is way more coherent with the description of the fight than a fully even fight.

Furthermore, both the complete Star Wars encyclopedia and the novel itself do make clear that Caedus was taxed by the duel:
Three things here:

  1. Being taxed by a fight is compatible with dominating a fight. A good comparison was Usain Bolt running a 100m sprint. In most of the case he have dominated his adversaries but I higly doubt that this run didn't taxed him. 
  2. The SW Encyclopedia didn't say that both are taxed at the same extend, so this isn't so relevant.
  3. In addition the Novel made clear that he haven't fully recover from his previous duel with Luke, so this can explain why he was "taxed" by the fight

As you can see here, you have failed to proved that there is any parity in this fight between Caedus and Katarn.

It’s made clear in the text that Caedus was starting to lose his concentration and most of his strength, and this was right after he was able to remove Katarn from the fight
Indeed, when you just dispatch your best ennemy in 15 sec and that you only face 3 fodders, it can be easily understand that your concentration dissepear and that you aren't focus at all on the rest of the fight. This is a tactical mistake but it's also really human to act like this.
As for the loose of strenght, the novel clearly show that there is a link between his loose of strenght and his injuries from his duel with Luke. Indeed, the two sentences are just one after the other. It wouldn't made any sense to put this two sentences so close if they haven't any link. This is what we call a juxtaposition.

At the end of the day, In stark contrast to what you are asserting, I believe Katarn was able to put up a fairly good fight against Caedus
Katarn was literally stomp by Caedus despite more than one legit advantage and you call this a "fairly good fight"!

As you can see, she has to put all of her effort against a distracted Caedus who menages to consistently blast her despite his injuries

It seems that you missed the context when she needs to use all her power to stop being blast away:
Invincible wrote:Jaina launched herself into a Force flip, tumbling over the conveyor belt head-down so that she could strike before Caedus had time to unclip and ignite his lightsaber.

Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life
As you can see, she not only need to stop being blast but also counter her own momentum. 


 to the point where he might be able to kill her
Yeah, they fight each other for a pretty long period of time, each of them injurying the other again and again. After this whole fight, indeed a force blast could kill Jaina. But you seems to forget that most of the injuries that Jacen suffer comes from Jaina so they are legit ones.

Considering Caedus ended the fight with Katarn through a clever trick (ramming him with a speeder while pretending to employ a direct telekinetic attack) rather than outfighting him the duration of the fight seems hardly a good comparison
This only proove that Caedus was such under a little pression during this fight, that he was able to keep in the mind the big picture and not just focusing on Katarn and take a good opportunity to put him out of the fight, instead of wasting some amount of Force in bypassing his ennemy defense. In the same time, Kyle was under such pression that  he cannot take into account what happend around him, solely focus on Caedus.

By contrast, as I’ve already proved, he could consistently blast away Jaina with little difficulty
Clearly no. In the whole fight, Caedus was able to blast Jaina only two times, and each one fail to take her out of the fight. The first one was at the very start of the fight, just after being impaled by her sister:

Invincible wrote:The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach.

The second one happend in the middle of the fight, after Caedus have stop the fight and speak with Jaina, something that must have give him enough time to gather his strenght while not under pression:
Invincible wrote:Instead, he deactivated his blade.

"Jaina, listen to me." There was a throaty, gurgling quality to Caedus's voice, and it seemed obvious that the only thing keeping him on his feet was Force energy-a lot of it. "You need to get out of my way. I'm trying to save Tenel Ka and Allana."

"Sure you are," Jaina scoffed. As she spoke, she extended her Force awareness in all directions, trying to figure out why Caedus was stalling when his body was running out of time. "Just like you saved Isolder."

"Isolder would have made the same choice. In fact, he did." Caedus clipped his lightsaber to his belt, a trust-building gesture that might have had some meaning, had he not been a lying Sith murderer. "Jaina, we don't have time for this."

"So die already."
Jaina launched herself into a Force flip, tumbling over the conveyor belt head-down so that she could strike before Caedus had time to unclip and ignite his lightsaber.

Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life

The only thing that he clear here is the fact that despite being more powerful in the force, Caedus fail to kill her sister with a Force blast. And this twice. This clearly show that no he cannot " consistently blast away Jaina with little difficulty". In fact, we didn't have a proof that he can do this in the middle of a fight.

Caedus specifically notes that those jedi “either individually or collectively, were no match” for him and acknowledges Katarn as the only credible threat, which is corroborated by the description of the duel, which depicts Caedus absolutely dominating the other jedi and Katarn having to break off the attack to assist them
Yes, the jedi knights aren't a match for him, but if you add them with Kyle, they are a valuable asset to Kyle. Just see what happend before Caedus say: "they're coordinating"

Fury wrote:swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation
Now two possibilities: 

  1. Kyle wasn't aware of this strike of Caedus and the jedi knight save Katarn leg. Clearly here, this would be the proof that they are a good help. Whitout them, Katarn will have loose the fight here.
  2. Kyle was aware of this attack but also know that the jedi knight will protect him. Here,thanks to the jedi knight, he can use at his advantage the time that Caedus will spend attacking him to do something else. Once again, the help of the knight is far from non-valuable, it allow him to do something else.


And the very fact that Caedus was able to ragdoll some jedi, while fighting with Kyle only proove that Katarn is so outmatched by his ennemy that he cannot put any pression on Caedus. In addition this seems to proove that the coordination of the team wasn't so good and that clearly further supported the first of the two possibilities previously given (showing that the jedi knight literally save Katarn).

While I agree the injuries were a factor in the fight, it’s not nearly as important as you make it to be because Caedus noted earlier he was “quickly recovering”. So the relevance of these injuries is definitely minor and only came into play after Katarn was defeated, which further proves my point about him being taxed by the duel
 Once again your logic is faulty:

  • You see that Caedus was "quickly recovering" and also that he "wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke".You are deducing that the injuries are minors
  • I see the seems thing but I deduce that Caedus wasn't as bad as after his duel with Luke but is still in a bad shape, up to the point that this made him loose his strenght after a really short fight that he fully dominate.



I fail to see the relevance of this “advantage” . Caedus never appears to be distracted from the fight at any moment, even if he’s keeping awareness on the vehicles. 
If Caedus is able to keep his mind split in two during of a fight, this clearly proof that he didn't need to be solely focus on it. He can do other things in the same time, so he isn't fully focus in the fight.

I also think you’re using a double standard here, by taking this into account and not his distraction in the fight with Jaina, that being him wanting to alert Tenel aka of the nano-virus, which I see as a far more substantial advantage
I think that you are making a mistake by seeing Caedus distracted in his fight with Jaina. Just let me explained why:
Caedus needs to alert Tenel Ka. But his sister is here to kill him. In order to alert Tenel Ka, he need to escape his sister. For this two possibilities:

  • Killing Jaina 
  • Speaking with her to convince her

At the start he tried to kill, her, he failed. The he tried to convince her, failed once again. Tried to kill her once again and when seeing that he failed, decided to stop fighting, trying to send a message to Tenel and Allana. 

As you can see here, there is a direct link between his fight with Jaina and alerting Tenel Ka. The faster he dealed with Jaina, the faster he can alert his wife. (Even though we didn't have any part of the fight based on Caedus point of view, it seems more than legit to view that as something which could amp Jacen).

In contrast in his fight with Kyle, there isn't any direct link between the speeders movement and the fight itself. What Caedus do here is: seeing the big picture.

In fact the text notes that Caedus was putting a great deal of force energy into sustaining himself, rather than the opposite [...] From this description we can see the injuries were an impairment to him rather than a way to fuel his power

False, the text explicitly say that Caedus was using this pain as a boost (like he already done).
Invincible wrote:He was in obvious pain-and he was feeding on it

In contrast, we haven't any mention of this during his fight against Kyle. Which is logic. In his fight with Jaina, he had the injuries and the pain, one hindering him and te other amping him. In his fight with Kyle he didn't have any pain from his fight against Luke but only the remaining of the injuries of his duel so only an hinderance.

Jaina was hurt as well, you’ve yet to prove those injuries were anywhere near Caedus’ own
No I didn't need, because Caedus is able to feed on his pain to amp himself while Jaina cannot. Clearly here she has a huge drawback that Caedus didn't have.  

 And regardless:
Oh, this is little! This happend nearly at the end of the fight, more than the half of the fight already happend before this. For more than the half, she was able to fight evenly with Caedus and have this boost that allow her to be able to end this fight. Clearly, this cannot be like a boost that come immediately after her injuries.

however this was only a disadvantage for a small part of the fight
What ? You are saying that not being able to feel Jacen in the Force only disadvantage her for a small part of the fight. Clearly you seems to forget that during a fight, feeling his ennemy through the Force is a sixth sense that Jedi and Sith have developped. It must be awfull to fight against someone that you cannot feel in the Force, like fighting someone whitout your sight or your hearing. This is an important disadavntage.

So to conclude this part, we have the fact that Jaina (with drawbacks that Katarn didn't have) faced Caedus (who have also drawbacks, similar to what he have when facing Katarn) for a extend period of time (more than 15 second) and put him under such pression (something that Katarn never done) that Caedus need to rely on his sheer TK to defeat her (while he clearly could have defeat an alone Katarn with his lightsaber) and even, Caedus failled to do this. 

This is clearly the proof that Jaina is above Katarn and by a clear margin.

*THE FALL OF TRAYA*




~DANTOINE FEAT~


1°) Jedi Masters
Only individuals with great skill and power in the force can learn the technique 

False: the quote said "most skilled" not "most/really powerful"

If they can teach the technique i would assume they can also use it themselves…
Yes, but this didn't show that they are powerful, only that they have knowledge of a technic that require SKILL, not POWER.

Bastila was not necessarily referring to jedi masters that were alive
And all the problem is here, if Bastilla didn't refer to master alive, this masters cannot be included in the three killed by Traya... SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 3344068304 You have yourself destroyed your scaling chain.

i do think at least Vrook was among those “most powerful jedi masters” she mentioned, as he was one of the masters of the council that she met when she brought Revan to the Jedi
False logic here once again. We have A=(most powerful Jedi masters) and B=(Vrook Lamar). Both A and B belongs to C=(Jedi Council). But you never prooved that A=C or that B belongs to A.  So you didn't proove that the scaling chain is valid.

2°)The fight

while it is true the masters are initially taken by surprise, given that Traya is able to pin Vrook I would hardly say she’s incapable “ragdolling” them. 
Just after being violently blast again a wall up to the point that two jedi of comparable power are laying on the ground, Traya was able to pin the Jedi master that was able to stand down... Yeah clearly Traya pinning a Vrook in such condition is the clear proof of her being able to ragdoll him in normal condition. SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 4 3363707401

For further explanation see my opener in this very thread. I’ve already addressed this
No, you just use some version of the fight that isn't canonic to proove that Kreia is above. 

I don’t understand your last point. The fact that they activated their lightsabers means they were combat-ready, making Traya’s ability to instantly drain them all the more impressive. 
Sorry, maybe I haven't been clear enough. We have the proof that one of the technic that teach the jedi masters made you vulnerable to force attack. 

This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery. Now watch carefully. This subtle technique enhances the duration of many Force powers at your disposal However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack
There isn't any reason for the masters not to use this "pinnacle of Force Mastery" which made them vulnerable to Force attack. This can explain how easily Traya was able to defeat this jedi masters.

 Kreia will certainly use it against Jaina
Traya known the faillure of this Jedi masters so can directly attack them where it is the more efficient. She didn't know as well Jaina and will certainly fail her Dun Moch.

Here, you clearly failled to proove that the Dantoine feat is impressive by anyways. 

~Kreia knowledge and skills~

Well it’s comparable with the accolades you presented for Jaina.
 False, Jaina's accolades aren't generic while Traya's one is (remember, no frame of reference).

We’re discussing lightsaber skill, not force power. Sure, Nihilus is more powerful than her, but nothing suggests either him or Sion, the former in particular , is superior to her in lightsaber skill

You missed my point here. I have just invalidate the quote that you give me (about electing the leader by the virtue of the blade) by providing you an example where this didn't happend. So this quote isn't valid and cannot be used as a proof of Traya skill.

Kreia literally didn’t have a hand, which would have undoubtedly decreased her effectiveness in combat. [...] And lastly, a weaker character defeating a stronger one is not unheard of in SW, see Anakin vs Obi wan, Maul vs Kenobi… in both cases a certain character should have realistically won but the other “menages to” defeat him via several factor, which in this case are unknown given that it’s a video game fight, but the description of the complete encyclopedia points to that being the case

The only thing that explainde Traya defeat against the Exile is a clear lack of skill. She is more powerful than her, on a powerful DS nexus and against a tired ennemy but she was defeated. If you want to provide another explanation do it and we can discuss it validity, but for now, you haven't counter my point, Traya didn't know how to use all of this power. 

MP’s points about Traya’s knowledge of Echani combat techniques still stand, as you haven’t provided a valid counter
If you want to play it this way, no problem. Jaina was able to face Caedus for an extended period of time while we know that he learned a technic during his five years journey that allow him to predict a fight more efficiently that Force precog:


FotJ: OMEN wrote:Both Skywalkers watched the encounter again. Ben felt a shiver chase up and down his spine.
Flow-walking. This was more than Force anticipation.
The fight continued. Ben realized that Cilghal was right. At every turn, Jysella predicted exactly where Barv would be. Sometimes she seemed to be two steps ahead. Ben had never seen that kind of Force anticipation, not even from his father.

If Jaina can still stand for a long period of time against Caedus, she will have no difficulty to counter the Force anticipation of Traya knowing that she was facing "more than Force anticipation".

You just failed to proove that Kreia is skilled enough to use her power efficiently during a fight. She cannot win in a fight against an ennemy more powerful than her (Jaina).

~NEW COUNTER-ARGUMENT~

it Seems better than anything Jaina has, but feel free to prove otherwise

Well, to proove that Jaina have better scaling than Traya, I could just:

  • use the two wins that you give me (putting Jaina equal or above FotJ!GM Luke)
  • use the fact that she is (at least) the fighting equal of Saba, someone who can defeat Kenth Hammer (while trying not to kill him) who himself was able to TK dominate Kyp Durron (indeed, before his prime but after the Dovin Basal feat)
  • use the fact that after two days of perpetual fight, whithout rest and lots of injuries (a broken arm, some brokens ribs and lots of slam against the ground and the walls) she was able to force push 4 siths sabers simultaneously (something that surprise even Luke) and after this to stop her being TK showed by freaking Abeloth.
  • use the scaling that put her above Vestara Khai (up to the point that the latter didn't think that she could defeat her with the help of 12 mandos), who is also better than Gavar Khai who is the top dog (just after High Lord Taalon) of a fleet of war of 11 vessels full of Sith


No instead of this, I will just use the fact that on a powerful DS nexus, she was able to fight evenly with Luke against 6 siths. This didn't seems really impressive at first glance but lets just focus to understand why this is impressive.

First of all, Luke know the fighting style of his ennemies (and Jaina didn't) :
But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style
It was on a DS nexus that : "clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies" up to the point that facing this six siths isn't something easy at all even for Luke :

But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith
 
Yes, we are talking of the freaking GM Luke Skywalker. You know the guys who was able (countless time before his prime) to defeat in a lightsaber fight a more powerful version of Sidious that the one that stalemate Yoda in RotS. Yoda that is" the most powerful jedi that ever walk in the jedi temple " so directly above jedi Revan. And yes, you know the Revan that is clearly above Traya:


If the Exile could defeat Kreia, Revan would have an easier time of it. 

Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
Revan could beat Kreia, no doubt about it - the student far surpassed the master.


Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
Revan's will allows him to feed on - and not be consumed by - the power of the dark side
Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

VS

Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force
Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

This scaling chain clearly proove that the siths that Jaina faces with Luke are just leagues above Traya. So even though she could just have defeat the half by herself, this still put her miles above Traya...

The parity is clearly proof by the way the fight is describe:

Bonded by blood and the Force itself, they performed a duet of death to the half dozen Sith pressing in for the attack"
"They leapt and swung, ducked and kicked in such swift, perfect harmony that an observer might have thought their moves had been choreographed"
"he knew that his father and Jaina had won their fights"

We even know that Jaina personally killed one of the Sith:
"Luke could hear the sizzle of lightsabers clashing behind him, only centimeters away, and then the acrid stench of burned flesh and Jaina's blade struck home"

This put her far above anything that Kreai had ever perform.

*CONCLUSION*




  

  • Jaina is in the top tier of the hierachy of the NJO era
  • The Korr Scaling chain is valid and above anything that Traya have
  • Jaina scaling chain put her above Traya
  • Traya haven't any noticeable feat for her
  • Traya haven't show that she is able to use appropiately a weaker ennemy
  • Traya haven't prooved that she can use her drain on more powerful enney


The logical conclusion of all of this can be sum-up in two words : JAINA STOMP!

@MasterCighal: your turn for the conclusive post.

Callout: 
@DC77 (Reborn) @StrangerThingsFan77 @The Ellimist @Vorpal Blade
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on Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:49 pm
@MasterCilghal : do you want to take also Bart as a judge ? (he said that he can judge come SS if asked)
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on Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:11 pm
@xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : do you want to take also Bart as a judge ? (he said that he can judge come SS if asked)
Yeah sure. Is it fine if @StrangerThingsfan77 votes as well? I would prefer to have these three at voting so we can have 3 unbiased individuals voting, since public vote.. well sometimes it is unreliable. Also, I’ll write my finisher soon so we can move directly into the judging. My post wil obviously be just a reiteration of my points.
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on Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:15 pm
Finishing thoughts/arguments 
And so it has come to end. Before making a summary of my points and arguments i would like to thank @Xolthol for making this an enjoyable and interesting debate which has been an incentive to improve my debating skills and research. However, I was not a fan of Xolthol’s attitude at certain points thorought the debate that went from downright ignoring several points to actively saying “insane stupidity” to an argument, which I do not like. Having said that, let’s get to the points themselves. First let’s sum up my arguments for Traya winning this fight: 



  • Dantooine feat: this feat remains Kreia’s best achievement. She was able to humble three jedi masters, all noted as the best of the era and likely above star forge empowered Bastila Shan (herself able to give Revan a fight). Xolthol’s attempts at debunking it have rather unsuccessful, as they are based on dubious evidence, such as Kreia using Dun moch (which would hardly be effective against jedi masters of that caliber), the “you were afraid” quote, which was actually directed towards the exile, the description of the force forms, an argument which I still haven’t been able to understand, and the Jedi master’s apparent injuries, despite them being ready ready to fight immediately afterwards. Ultimately, this feat eclipses anything Jaina has, whose own hype is based more on reputation than anything else.
  • While Xolthol has been able to partially counter this, I still think Kreia’s admittedly superior knowledge will give her a further advantage. Jaina has never proven she can deal with an opponent who employs force drain (which is just of many combat-applicable powers Traya has in her arsenal) especially with the level of control and refinement of Traya. Furthermore, we have seen drain used against a more powerful opponent, see the Krayt and Luke vs Abeloth fight in Apocalypse, so it is definitely a factor here. 
  • Kreia’s vast superiority to Visas Marr (an argument which Xolthol did not address), an opponent with impressive showings and great hype, really shows the depth of her power. I really don’t see Jaina replicating it considering how poorly she performed against Caedus (who has his own low showings). 
  • Traya’s lightsaber skill, while not extremely impressive, is still more than enough to present a challenge. She scales above Sion, Visas and several skilled sith in the triumvirate, all of who, have been able to give the exile herself a fight. Xolthol’s use of her final duel is misleading as not only was Kreia noted as stronger (either just on the nexus or in general), making the legitimacy of Meetra’s victory suspect (e.i. she won by luck, similarly to Kenobi against Maul in tpm) but was also missing a hand, which would have unquestionably diminished her effectiveness as a duelist. 



Now let’s briefly sum up Xolthol’s main arguments and my rebuttals to them: 

  • Xolthol’s case was built on Jaina’s accolades, many of which, however, are vague and not-particularly-impressive: the statement about Jaina being “the equal of anyone in the order”  fails on various levels: taken literally, it would be a contradiction, otherwise it would only refer to sparring sessions. But most importantly, it would imply Jaina is the equal of Luke, which is objectively not true, as proven by statements that none other than Xolthol has brought up. The quotes about Jaina being one of the best jedi knights, which definitely are not bad, are still not very relevant to the debate, as there’s no way to prove how close or far she is from the other knights who are included in the statement. Furthermore Jaina conceding inferiority to all members of the council and some Jedi Knights does not help his case either. Lastly we have Jaina being chosen to take down Caedus, which Xolthol has been unable to prove as a choice based on power and skill but rather for the specific advantages she enjoyed over her brother. Same with the pilot argument. As we have seen with other characters, being the best pilot does not necessarily equate to being the most powerful force user around. (Otherwise we would have Tiin>Kenobi). 
  • Lastly and finally we have Jaina’s supposed superiority to Kyle Katarn, which i don’t think is the case either. Katarn, while helped by jedi that Caedus specifically noted as not being in any fashion a threat to him, was able to give the Sith Lord a fairly good fight (hence Caedus being taxed later, which I’ve yet to see a fair argument for why it doesn’t translate into having difficulty) against a Caedus who was quickly recovering from previous injuries. Jaina by contrast, was being tossed around by a severely injured Caedus. 



Ultimately, Traya is a superior combatant, no matter how you look at it and will definitely win this fight.
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on Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:34 pm
@MasterCilghal: Damn that was really fast... Hoping to mproduce my own before the end of the week. Ok for @StrangerThingsFan77 as the last judge. If you want to add more (like MP or DC77) feel free to asked them. But if you didn't want, I'm ok to.
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on Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:55 pm

*CONCLUSION*




Well, after a pretty long time on this debate, lets sum-up all of the points that I've made so far. 

First of all against Darth Traya, Lady of the Sith:

  • I've shown that the Dantoine Feat is overrated by a pretty huge margin. Indeed, we haven't anything substential to prove the power of the three jedi masters: they didn't have non-generic accolades, they didn't have any feat for them (certainly not the reconstruction of the Dantoine Jedi Enclave), they cannot be scale from anyone (particularly the SF!Bastila scaling chain failed). In addition to this, the fight between Darth Traya and the three jedi masters isn't without a huge context: the Lady of the sith take blast them because they weren't aware of them, then she made a powerful use of Dun Moch and lastly one of the very technic that the masters use made them more vulnerable to force attack (like Force Drain). Because of all of this context we can clearly see that this isn't something really impressive
  • My opponent failled to proove that Darth Traya was a good duelist by any means. We didn't have any feat for Kreia as a duelist and the poor accolade that can made her at the pinnacle of the sith of this era have been proven false so cannot be use. 
  • Darth Traya, despite a huge knowledge (but we didn't know up to which point this is a combattive applicable knowledge), despite being more powerful than the jedi Exile (who was tired after fighting through army of siths), was defeated by the latter. This is clearly a really low-showing for Kreia and a clear proof that she didn't necessarly know how to use efficiently all the knowledge that she had gathered.
  • We didn't have any proof that Traya will be able to use her drain against a more powerful opponent or that this could be a one-shot option for her.


At the opposite for Master Jaina Solo/Fel , Sword of the Jedi:

  • I've demonstrated that Jaina is the equal of anyone in the Jedi order (as a fighter) bar her uncle Luke Skywalker (that I thought was in exile at this time). My opponent had prooven for me that this quote also include Grand Master Luke Skywalker (thanks to him). In addition, various quotes before FotJ  and in FotJ (one of the best jedi knight, the pilote quote, being the best jedi knights as a duelist) made this clear enough: Jaina is at the top of the commbat hierarchy of the NJO.
  • This was further substantiate with the fact that Jaina was sent to kill her brother (Darth Caedus), and  by the comparison between her fight and the fight of Kyle Katarn. In this two instances, I've shown that both jedi have advantages over Caedus but that the sword of the jedi have more drawbacks than master katarn (IE: being alone, begining the fight with a huge trauma, facing an ennemy heavily feeding on his pain,...). Despite this, Jaina put clearly a better fight than Kyle.
  • In addition, I've scaled Jaina above destroying with telekinesis a whole building (Solo >> Korr >~ Soldier + Runner > 2x Runner >>>> destroying a building with TK) something way better than any feat or scaling provided for Traya.
  • Last but not least, I have shown that the parity of Jaina with Luke while facing siths on a powerful DS nexus puts her leagues above Traya by a direct scaling chain.


In the end, Master Jaina Solo/Fel, Sword of the Jedi have more than enough feats, scaling, accolades to understand that she will just defeat Darth Traya, Lady of the Sith.

Acknowledgements:
At the end, I want to thanks @MasterCilghal for all of his great work on this SS. Each time he forced me to go deeper in the argumentation and in the research and that was really interresting. 
I sincerely apologize if sometimes I've been too agressive against some of his arguments/logic and hope that this won't stop him from debatting with me.
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on Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:57 pm
@Bart @The Ellimist @StrangerThingsFan77 
Can you to vote for this SS now that we have both made our finisher post ?
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on Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:01 pm
Got a ton of shit to do this week so is it alright if I get down to this next week (which is my October holidays)? That way I'll have plenty of time to re-read through the debate and make detailed notes to form a proper conclusion.

@xolthol Edit for clarification on my ability to judge. Given that I'm not a moderator, I'm apparently technically not allowed to judge, so all of the moderators are going to be asked by Cilghal whether they can judge or not, and only if all of them refuse will I be allowed to judge.
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on Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:52 pm
@StrangerThingsFan77 : Didn't know this. Thanks for the info
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on Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:03 pm
Judging today.
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on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:59 am
@Xolthol I hadn’t seen your post, sorry. Good post
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