Re: SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

July 5th 2019, 10:31 pm

That SF!Bastila scaling for the Masters is actually incredible.

July 24th 2019, 9:54 am

Bump.

July 28th 2019, 8:54 am

@Meatpants excellent work, makes me want to return as I had my own rebuttal almost ready.

July 28th 2019, 9:09 am

@Meatpants @Xolthol seriously is it possible for me to return? Of course I will be keeping Meatpants’ post and add something more. Of course if you want to continue there’s no problem, but I want to participate in a debate so bad these days.

July 29th 2019, 6:33 am

I've already won it for you. Take over and finish him off.

July 29th 2019, 8:31 am

Meatpants wrote:I've already won it for you. Take over and finish him off.

Thanks a lot! I simply need to address a few things you didn’t ( Jaden Korr, Jaina quote), while the Kreia parts you added are exactly what I would have said.

July 31st 2019, 4:24 am

No problem for Cilghal to continu... I will respond to MP or Cilghal when I will have some time. (In some days)

July 31st 2019, 3:54 pm

@Xolthol thank you. I will try my best to get out my post, which will work as kind of a continuation of MP’s own.

July 31st 2019, 5:15 pm

Premises

Before introducing my response I wanted to point out a few things about this debate and this post. In the beginning, I didn’t think I was going to continue this debate but I menaged to solve my personal problems. In the mean time, I wanted to greatly thank @Meatpants for stepping in and creating a marvelous post, which basically contained what I would have said abou Traya. to all those who are reading, Consider this post a “continuation” to MP’s one that will address the parts he didn’t (particularly Jaina and Jaden Korr). Having said that, let’s begin, and I hope you all enjoy my post.

Counter 1: “the combat equal of none”

Xolthol wrote:What this quote gives us to know ? First of all, we learn that at this time, Jaina is the "combat equal" of anyone
[*]in the Jedi order.

[*]

Thank you, I hadn’t noticed it.
Jokes aside, this statement, even in and of itself doesn’t tell us anything and i’ll give you a very simple explanation for why it it simply an hyperbole and cannot be taken literally. “The equal of anyone” refers to all members of the Jedi order, but there is no way Jaina could be the equal of, for example, Kyle Katarn and a padawan at the same time, considering that the two are on completely different levels in skill, it would be an illogical idea. Rather it is a vague way to tell the readers that Jaina is skilled, that’s all.

Xolthol wrote:Obviously she cannot be at the same time the equal of younglings and the equal of masters... The quote refer to the fact that she is the equal to any top fighting Jedi masters, which include: Kyp Durron, Saba Sebatyne, Kyle Katarn.

Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. It could very well refer to a yougling if we are to take it at face value. Coming to this conclusion requires too much assumption; Katarn, Saba and Kyp aren’t even mentioned. I would agree with you if the quote were something like“among the best in the order”, but this is far too speculative.
if this argument doesn’t convince you, I can assure you the next one will be more than sufficient.

Xolthol wrote:But this reasonning is clearly false based on a simple fact. During the time of FotJ Luke Skywalker wasn't in the Jedi Order. He left in exile because he think that he had failed his duty by letting his nephew Jacen Solo becoming the sith lord Darth Caedus. So he isn't in the Order anymore and the quote is still valid.

This is objectively wrong. Luke had just resumed his position as the GM in the previous book, ascension. Here is a statement from the essential reader’s companion’s description of the book’s plot that specifically says Luke resumes his title as GM after his return and Coruscant ( which he could do given that Chief Daala had recently been removed from office):

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As you correctly pointed out, Jaina’s power pales in comparison to Luke’s and is therefore stupid to conclude the quote applies to him, which it would if you were to take it seriously.

Xolthol wrote:I have used "at least" in order to made explain something that must be taking into account: the quote undirectly explain that Jaina is the above most of the members of the jedi order by using the rethoric figure which made her equal to the top jedi of the order.

Exactly, You’re proving my own point. ( and contradicting yourself) ,that statement is just a figure of speech, however, as I already proved it’s both far too vague and can simply be dismissed with the Luke skywalker argument I presented.
Honestly, I’m surprised you brought it up considering that it has been debunked so many times in the past.

Counter 2: Jaden Korr

I found the Jaden scaling you presented to be very interesting ( although I already knew it since I read the books). However, not only are there a few issues with it, but I also fail to see how it is linked to Jaina herself. I’ll divide this in 3 parts: (1) addressing the issues in the Jaden scaling, (2)addressing the fight between Boba and Vader, and (3) negating Jaina’s involvement in this whole scaling.

1-issues in the Jaden scaling

Xolthol wrote:Even though they are clone, they can use the Force in pretty impressive way.

I don’t get how being a clone is a problem to one’s force connection. Could you please explain this a bit more in depth?

Xolthol wrote:This feat can be seen as not really impressive but when you look cautionly, it is really insane. First of all, Runner didn't push the speeder all the time, he just give it the first (and only) impulse. Then the speeder wasn't flying at all, he was sliding on the ground so the physical friction must had take a important part of the initial energy. Last but clearly not least the speeder hit a building and because of this the building half collapsed. And this wasn't because of some explosion: Metal shrieked and bent. Glass shattered this was only because of the sheer speed and weight of the speeder.
Basically, what he have done here prove that he can easily with a single push half-destroy a building. And he is far from working at his full power.

Very good feat indeed. However, it doesn’t prove he can destroy a building of even half of it. It was the speeder itself which caused the damage by impacting on the building, not Soldier’s own power. What I don’t understand is why you didn’t mention the hospital feat, which to me seems far more impressive.

Xolthol wrote:Basically, you can see that even the combine might of the two clones isn't enough to defeat in a sheer TK competiton Jaden Korr.

Jaden did indeed menage to TK stalemate the two clones, however i find it a stretch to argue he was equal, let alone superior to the two clones. In fact, initially, he struggles against Soldier alone:

The clone snarled, held up a hand, palm outward, and met Jaden’s blast with his own. Power pressed against power and Jaden and the clone eyed each other across the landing, jaws fixed, eyes locked, neither gaining the advantage."
―Star Wars Riptide

Later, in the passage you presented, it Jaden makes it clear that, sooner or later, he would have been overwhelmed by the combined power of the two clones, not to mention the incredible amount of effort required to him in order to hold them off:

Jaden held out his left hand—his maimed hand—at the last moment, intercepted the blast, and answered with his own power. The clone’s push caused him to stagger, but he nested himself in the Force and stood his ground against both clones. He held his hands out, the clones’ power pressing at him from right angles. The yellow line of his lightsaber, which he still held in his left had, sizzled before his eyes. The effort squeezed sweat from him, taxed mind and body. He took a step back, another, and found himself pressed against the wall. He could not hold out for long.
-Riptide

Overall, You cannot possibly argue Jaden is superior to the two clones combined. All evidence points to him being unable to hold them off forever. The best he can possibly achieve ( and that has been shown achieving ) against them is a stalemate. I really don’t understand why you came to this conclusion. Other than that I agree with everything that was presented, Jaden is a truly impressive jedi.

2-addressing Fett vs Vader and Jaden’s own skill

Xolthol wrote:If you want to argue that sheer power isn't everything in a fight, I will agree, but Jaden is far from being a shitty fighter. In fact he is exactly the opposite: he is an awesome fighter.
Indeed he faced and defeat Boba Fett (you know, the guy who fought against Vader and survive)

I acknowledge the Boba fett feat is extremely impressive for Jaden, that I won’t deny. However, I found a lot of issues with the fights you provided, which to me point to a lack of a deep research on your part. the first of the two fights, which comes from Star Wars tales #11, was never canon even before Disney came in, and we can therefore dismiss it completely.

Basically, everything except those items marked with an “Infinity” logo (i.e. the Star Wars Tales comics) is considered canon.”-Sue Rostoni, Lucas Books and Lucas Licensing Managing Editor, Starwars.com May 30, 2003

In the latter example, there are a great deal of circumstances:Vader was looking for a chest which he desperately needed and that Boba was carrying, meaning he wasn’t going all out against him from the start (and that’s basically why Boba lasts so long) . It’s downright stated by Vader himself. Furthermore Vader was fairly overconfident, which further added to the apparent “difficulty” (he still beat him pretty easily every time he menato close the distance) he was experiencing when facing the renowned bounty hunter. His vast superiority over Fett is unquestionable.

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62 - SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 3 E2ef7210

This fight also takes place around 3 BBY. Don’t forget that Vader still had to go through a massive growth in regards to his combat skill, in fact he is described as a far more capable opponent in ESB than he was in ANH ( which is later than the events in the comic, I might add)and don’t forget that around this time period he was struggling against not-particularly-impressive jedi like An’ya Kuro.
Here is the statement I was talking about:

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
-insider #62

Ultimately, Jaden’s feat is certainly impressive,but using Vader as an example doesn’t prove anything, since his enormous superiority over Boba while vastly before his prime is pretty much undeniable. Plus there’s the fact that Boba was far older when he faced Jaden.
This leads me into my next point: is Jaden truly a great fighter, as you are suggesting?
Unfortunately the all indications are to the contrary or at least not quite as great as you are suggesting. Jaden’s performance when engaged in a lightsaber duel, at least in his prime, isn’t all that impressive. First, in crosscurrent, he only menages to achieve a stalemate against and injured jedi master Relin, a random Jedi from the old republic:

Khedryn did not hesitate and fired a series of blaster shots. The intruder's lightsaber turned from line to blurred circle as he weaved a defense that deflected each shot into the bulkheads.
"Stay back," Jaden said to Khedryn. He augmented his speed with the Force and rushed forward, feinting high and stabbing low.
Parrying the low stab as he sidestepped, the intruder spun into a reverse strike at Jaden's head. Jaden interposed his blade, met the man's hard eyes through the transparisteel of his helmet, and put a Force-augmented kick into his abdomen.
The impact slammed the intruder into the wall, elicited a wince and a grunt of pain. He doubled over for a moment, favoring his side. Taking advantage of the opening, Jaden unleashed an overhand slash, but the man spun aside and Jaden's blade cut a black groove in the bulkhead.
Jaden backflipped high into the air to avoid the intruder's reverse backslash and landed on the other side of the corridor, three meters away, trapping the intruder between Jaden on the one side and Khedryn on the other.
Jaden could not quite place the man's fighting style. He had seen nothing like it before."
Star Wars: Crosscurrent

Yes, I am aware that Jaden “could not quite place the man’s fighting style”, but it is equally true this lack of knowledge would have gone either ways, especially considering that the NJO developed new fighting styles completely unknown to the old jedi. this jedi has no particular accolades of feats that point to an unusually high level of skill.
Overall, Jaden is far too inconsistent to truly declare him a great fighter, you’ll have to come up with more than an isolated instance. But that’s not so relevant to this debate. Let’s get to the next point.

3- Jaina solo?!

Xolthol wrote:As shown in the previous part, Jaina is around Kyp/Kyle/Saba level of fighter. So she is clearly above someone as powerful as Jaden Korr.

You have proved it through a wrong interpretation of a quote that was not intended to be taken the way you did and that i already debunked in its entirety. In fact, My reaction after reading this was like: “ ok interesting, but what does Jaina have to do with all this?”. Simply put, You haven’t proven she is on par with Saba or Kyle in any way, and as such this scaling falls apart completely.
But let’s, for a moment, pretend she is on that level. You still haven’t provided any valid proof
that Saba and Kyle (let’s exclude Kyp for obvious reasons) are Jaden’s superiors. I imagine this assumption is based on the fact that the two are masters while Jaden is only a Knight ( because Jaden actually has some feats that exceed both, like the aforementioned Boba Fett fight) . In case this comes up as an argument, I’ll give a simple counter to it:
1-being in a different rank doesn’t necessarily speak to one’s superiority to those ranked beneath said jedi, this applies specifically in the NJO, as seen in monologue from Jacen:

62 - SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 3 F583fa10

-source: TUF

2- Jaden was actually offered the rank of master but he refused due to personal reasons.

Overall, you have provided nothing that scales Jaina above Jaden in any meaningful way, except a weird quote that I’ve already debunked.

Conclusions

1- in stark contrast to what you provided, Traya is a great fighter and an extremely powerful force user based on her scaling from the three masters on Dantooine ( which MP has already addressed and that I will address further in my response to your next post)
2- Jaina’s only major accolade is nothing more than a wired way to say that she’s skilled in her own right, but does not apply in the way you say.
3- Jaina doesn’t get any scaling from Jaden Korr.
4- all my previous arguments about Jaina’s embarrassing showings and her inability to stand against Traya’s drain still stand.

Good luck @Xolthol with your response.

July 31st 2019, 5:20 pm

July 31st 2019, 5:21 pm

Solid post.

August 11th 2019, 9:18 am

@MasterCilghal I will try to respond to you asap but didn't know precisely when.

August 11th 2019, 9:27 am

@Xolthol

August 31st 2019, 5:27 pm

I'm currently working on my response to @MeatPants and @MasterCilghal. But I will be offline for a week.

September 1st 2019, 10:14 am

xolthol wrote:I'm currently working on my response to @MeatPants and @MasterCilghal. But I will be offline for a week.

Ok, no problem.

September 9th 2019, 12:24 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

First of all, I want to apologize to my opponent(s) because of the time that I take to respond to their (really good tbh) first counter. But real life has it own rythm and I cannot respond before. With all of this said, lets continue this fight....

EXAMINATING THE DANTOOINE FEAT

Since the start of this debate, Traya killing the three Dantooine jedi masters is the only real feat that you have provide for her. Lets explain why this feat isn't as relevant as you want us to believe....

~THE JEDI MASTERS~

What have you bring on the table for the Jedi Masters ?

1°- LIGHTSABER SKILLS

All three masters are masters of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, as all three can teach the form to the Exile in KOTOR 2. Juyo requires mastery of all six previous forms to study:

This isn't really significatif to know that they have mastered lightsaber technics when in an only Force battle. And knowing that Traya killed them only via the use of the Force, I failled to see in which way this is relevant.

2°- FORCE KNOWLEDGE

Additionally, all three Jedi are capable of teaching the form Force Mastery, of which Kreia comments:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
It is a great technique that you have learned. Gifted only to the highest of Jedi Masters - and the Sith - this technique makes your Force powers more difficult to resist... and they will last longer as well.

So they know how to teach an impressive Force technique. So they have a good knowledge. I beg your pardon but isn't knowledge something different from force power ? Yes the knowledge of something is like a tool. If you have more tools, you are more likely to solve any type of problem. But to draw a comparison, having a spoon won't help you to cut your bread... The fact that they have knowledge isn't at all the proof that they are powerfull.

3°- Force power

In order to give better depth to the relative power of Vrook, and perhaps the other masters, Bastila herself admits inferiority to what can only mean the Council members; this is despite being overconfident and drunk on the power of the Star Forge and also having her powers enhanced by her turn to the Dark Side:

Bastila, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:
The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters.

Yes, really impressive quote indeed... But I think that you have missed a really important point here. When you quote Bastila saying:

Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.

This take place before Malak launch an assault on Dantoine, killing and capturing lots of Jedi:

Darth Malak wrote:See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine

So you just have a quote explaining that before Malak attack, there was powerful jedi masters. You have no proofs:

that after the attack this "most powerful jedi masters" are still alive
that this jedi who are dead are include in Bastila claim
that the three jedi masters are part of "the most powerful jedi masters"

The scaling chain that you've tried to create just failed here...

~JEDI vs TRAYA~

The confrontation between Darth Traya and the three jedi Masters is something that you didn't explain.

Lets see what happend in this fight to have a better understand of the context.

The 3 jedi masters start to try to sever the Exile from the force once again.
Traya attack them, pushing them against a wall (they are taken by surprise)
Two remains on the floor and only Vrook stand up before being pinned to the wall once again
Then Traya lecture the three jedi. During the speech she explains that this three jedi masters are afraid: "But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid".
Eventually they attack Darth Traya with their lightsaber and are killed by her Force Drain.

So we have many factors that can explain why they loose so easily to Darth Traya: being tired because of the try to sever from the Force an unwilling Exile, being blast powerfully against a wall, being afraid of the exile (so having more difficulty to draw on the force), attacking with their lightsaber Traya who use only the force here.
This last point is indeed a mistake because the Masters knows powerful techniques but not whithout drawbacks:

This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery. Now watch carefully. This subtle technique enhances the duration of many Force powers at your disposal However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack."

In addition, the whole speech of the lady of the Sith is clearly a sort of Dun Moch. Indeed, she just taunt the three jedi masters by saying that they deliberately didn't act as they should have done. She talk at each one precisely, showing a deep knowledge of their life. And the technique is pretty effective when you see that neither of the three jedi attack her even though they have ignite their lightsabers.

As everyone can see, with all the context the feat seems way less impressive.

Just before closing this part, I will to reat to one of your claim:

Additionally, there were on a LS nexus when they died

I think that is mainly based on the quote from Bastila Shan explaining that: "There is great strength within this place." Obviously this is a misconception. Here the great strenght isn't some sort of LS nexus but the jedi academy of Dantooine with its pretty huge defensive system. You didn't give any other proof for your theory of the LS nexus, so clearly none have any reason to trust you this theory.

~Conclusion~

To sum up the part, we have that Traya killed with the Force three Jedi Masters who are pretty skilled in lightsaber and with some knowledge of the Force with lots of advantages on her side. Clearly this feat isn't impressive at all and I fail to see how this is supposed to be a proof that Traya is above Jaina in term of Force power.

KNOWLEDGE WHITHOUT SKILL

In this part, I will explain why all the knowledge that Traya have won't be a game-changer against Jaina.

~Force Knowledge of Traya~

It's easy to argue that Kreia's knowledge of both Jedi and Sith arts exponentially surpass Jaina. Kreia knows more techniques in the Force as well

Indeed, knowing that Darth Traya have is a really scolar characters (she was an historian of the Jedi, search for sith knowledge in Telos, Korriban and so on), it is pretty obvious that she is the most knowledgeable of the two fighters.
Nonetheless, the real question here is : how much can this knowledge be use in a fight ? Because lots of the knowledge that both sith and jedi gathered are non-combat-applicable. For example all the rituals from the sith cannot be use in the core of a fight.
This is further emphatize by the fact that in much of his fight, despite his insane knowledge (that we can both agree is greater than Traya's one) Sidious mainly rely on TK, TP, FL, lightsaber strikes. If someone like Sheev Palpatine with such knowledge didn't use other technics (even against difficult ennemy such as Luke in DE) it is more than plausible that it is because most of this knowledge isn't combat-applicable.

So clearly if you cannot provide me some precise Force power that Traya known and that can help her defeat the Sword of the Jedi, your point is just moot and useless here.

~Lightsaber skills~

You claim that Traya have a great skill in lightsaber, base on this quotes:

And she was said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force."

Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.

The first one is something pretty vague that lots of jedi and sith who aren't insanely good duelist have, so clearly this isn't something specialy interresting.
The second one isn't better for Traya. Indeed, we have two problems here.
First of all the theory supported by the quote is clearly dismissed by the fact that Traya was ejected out of the Triumvirat not because of a lightsaber fight that she lost but because she was ragdoll by the combine might of Nilhius and Sion. By following this logic, there is no reason for her not to defeat some other sith better than her in sheer skill but with less force power.
Secondly even if I agree on the fact that she is the best lightsaber fighter of the sith, this only include the sith that survive after the civil war. We have no idea of the skills level of this particular era. This is absolutely not relevant for this fight.

~Unarmed fighting skills~

This would give Traya the knowledge of all Echani rituals, techniques and abilities, such as being able to predict battles minutes in advance without the use of the Force

Well, this is just an insane stupidity...

Lets reasoning by the absurd and assuming that she can predict fight minutes before things happend. Logically when she have faced the Exile she could have predict what happend before the end of the fight (her defeat). And knowing that she is more powerful than the Exile she should have just find the good way to win the fight. But factually she loose.

So clearly she cannot predict fight minutes before.

~Unable to use all of this knowledge~

On the top of all of what I've explain just above, there is still a huge problem for Traya.

You've described Traya's loss to the Exile as an anti-feat, but there's no real basis for this, especially considering that Meetra Surik is also a superior combatant to Jaina, thus your point becomes moot

Two things here, you never prooved that Meetra was more powerful than Jaina (and honestly, knowing that she is weaker than Traya I have more than insane doubt that she is) and mostly, you missed my point. Here it is:despite all of her knowledge, despite her so called mastery of the lightsaber, despite her "great" knowledge of the unarmed fight she lost agaisnt an opponent weaker than her!

This is the perfect proof that she isn't at all a great fighter and that maybe she have all of this knowledge but this is useless in a fight.

[justify]

Although the KOTOR Campaign Guide writes "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." It's unclear whether this is based on their neutral power levels, or exclusive to Traya being amped by the core

Yes it is unclear but it would have been more logic to write: " Although Traya was more powerful thanks to the DS nexus, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." But even though this didn't take into account the countless ennemies that the Exile have killed on this nexus in order to face Traya. In addition to her being less powerful she was also tired by all of this fight. And despite all of this she win... Traya is insanely bad as a fighter.

~Conclusion~

Maybe Traya have some knowledge useful in fight but she have prooved that she is unable to use it properly during a fight. There isn't any reason for her to do other way while facing Jaina Solo.

September 9th 2019, 12:25 pm

THE SWORD OF THE JEDI

Now that I have prooven that nearly all what you give us to see for Traya is at most garbage, lets focus more on Jaina herself.

~The combat equal of anyone...~

First, here, I must concede here that yes, I have made a mistake here by thinking that Luke was still in exile when the quote happend.
[/justify]

Nonetheless this quote still exist.

Jaina Solo, who, as Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order

And we can further reinforce this quote by other which will add more value to this quote and prove that she is the top dog of the jedi order:

"I'm not sure you can gain anything from sparring more with me. You've outstripped me with the lightsaber. Practice is all you think about, day and night. I doubt any Jedi Knight can stand against you. You need to practice against a Master" (Zekk)

She leapt forward, swinging it with the speed and ferocity of one of the best-trained Jedi Knights in recent history

Jaina Solo, whose skill in starfighter combat was second only to that of Luke Skywalker himself

"I'm his twin. I have as much power as he does... potentially. But he's had training I haven't. I need to counter it with training he hasn't had. And the sort of ingenuity you showed me." (Jaina)

“If anyone can stop Jacen, then, it’s me. I’m his equal, and I’m the Sword of the Jedi. But I just don’t have his…training." (Jaina)

"Every future that begins with me going after Caedus ends in darkness. I know I'm the only one who can be sure of stopping him" (Luke)

Lets analyse this quotes.

1°) BEST JEDI KNIGHT

The first two quotes shown that Jaina is the best jedi knight of this era. Indeed, while the first quote from one of her sparing partner describe her as better than any jedi knight in combat, the second one explicitely put her as one of the best recently trained jedi knight. This directly include Jaden Korr, Leia Solo, Ben Skywalker and so on.

2°) SECOND BEST PILOT

The third quote state that Jaina is an insanely good pilot only bested by Luke himself. Now the question that you can ask is : "how your level as a pilot is relevant in a fight ?".
The difference between a good and a bad pilot is mostly based on two things: your reflexes and your anticipation. And this both things are also extremly present during a classical fight. With this link between piloting and fighting lets consider a force user. If this force user is more powerful than another he must have better reflexe and better anticipation. By following this logic, we have that Jaina Solo is the second best fighter of the order just after Luke.

Now, the point is: have we some other proofs that support this logic ? The answer is yes:

Anakin Skywalker was an insanely good pilot and was also the most gifted force user ever.
Luke Skywalker is the best pilot of this era and also the most powerful jedi.

This logic have been prooven right so we can apply it.

3°) DARTH CAEDUS QUOTES

The last three quotes refer directly to the parity between Jaina and Jacen aka Caedus. Thanks to this quotes, we know that :

Caedus is too powerful to be taken down by anyone else than Luke himself.
Jaina have the same potential than him but less training (this is before her Fett training)
Jaina is his equal as a fighter

In addition, we have also this quote from Jaina herself:

Even Luke did not know the full of extent of Caedus's powers, and Jaina had no illusions about being her brother's equal in terms of Force strength. If it came down to a straight Force battle, she would die. It was that simple.

This clearly illustrate the fact that Jaina isn't as powerful as Caedus in force strength. Nonetheless, even with all of this said, that was her who have been choosen by the council to hunt down Darth Caedus.
Knowing that the Jedi Council won't send Jaina to her death, the most logical deduction is that Jaina have been choosen to kill Jacen because she is the one with the more chance not to fail (obviously we exclude Luke becaus this latter fear to fall to the DS).
Obviously, one of the reason explaining this choice is the fact that she is her twin sister so should have a good knowledge of her brother. However, she also stated that she have no idea of: what Lumyia teached him and what he learned during his five years journey.

I've no idea what he learned from Lumiya, let alone what he picked up on his travels during those five years (Jaina)

In addition, it is pretty obvious that the knowledge that she have on her brother is match by the knowledge that Jacen have of her...
Taking all of this into account, we now can see that the fact that she is her twin
isn't such a major advantage if she isn't at the very least in the same league of the other top dog of the order such as Kyp, Kyle and Saba. And all of this happened more than two years before her own prime (in FotJ).

CONCLUSION

As I have shown in this part, Jaina have more than enough things for her to be stated as one of the top dog of the NJO. The "combat equal" quote strengthen this theory and clearly put Jaina as the second of none into the Jedi order bar GM Luke.

~Jaden Korr scaling~

Here, I will respond to the different claimed made by my opponent in his last counter.

1°) INVOLVING JAINA

With the previous part that I have made, it is clear that Jaina is above Jaden Korr and even by a pretty good margin. Indeed, nonetheless the fact that Jaden have been proposed Jedi master he is still a knight so he is include into both previous quotes about Jaina being above all other jedi knights and wasn't choose to hunt down Caedus.
The only thing that can be said is the fact that the feat that I use for Korr happened after LotF. Indeed, this is true but we didn't have any proof of an insane growth in power from Jaden between the end of LotF and Riptide/Crosscurrent. So there is just no reason to think that he had experienced more than a classical growth in the force, something that Jaina or other jedi knight will also have. So if Jaina was better before, she will stay above him after.

2°) RESPONDING TO FALSE ISSUE

I don’t get how being a clone is a problem to one’s force connection. Could you please explain this a bit more in depth?

Here I just precise the fact that they aren't natural people but despite this they can use the force (nothing worth mentionning tbh, I could have skip the fact that they are clone).

Very good feat indeed. However, it doesn’t prove he can destroy a building of even half of it. It was the speeder itself which caused the damage by impacting on the building, not Soldier’s own power. What I don’t understand is why you didn’t mention the hospital feat, which to me seems far more impressive.

Indeed, when you are doing a first approach, the hospital feat seems bigger, but when you do a good analysis the speeder feat is far above the hospital one. Lets explain why (and in the same time, why this is the proof that he can destroy a building).
In order to do this, I will use some basic physical analysis.

Physical approach:

Spoiler:

For those who didn't like this sort of argumentation, I will use an easier way to explain my point.

Spoiler:

So we have that Runner can destroy half a building only thanks his TK.

Jaden did indeed menage to TK stalemate the two clones, however i find it a stretch to argue he was equal, let alone superior to the two clones. In fact, initially, he struggles against Soldier alone.

Indeed, Jaden initially struggle against one of the two clones, but the fact that he was able to resist the combine might of the two is a clear proof that before he wasn't using his full power. A simple comparison can be made in sport, sometimes it seems impossible for you to continue but if you didn't give up and keep going, you will discover that you can go further. It seems pretty obvious that is what happend to Korr here.

Later, in the passage you presented, it Jaden makes it clear that, sooner or later, he would have been overwhelmed by the combined power of the two clones, not to mention the incredible amount of effort required to him in order to hold them off:

Here, your are quotting a extract that wasn't the end of the fight. I have provide you the full fight in my opener, showing that he successfully resist against the clone and stalemate them again and again until the clone of Lumyia intervene and allow the clones to win this fight.

Star Wars: Riptide wrote:As one, the two male clones took a step toward Jaden, their power pressing against him. He fell to one knee, grunting against their onslaught, barely holding on.
They took another step and he fell to both knees.
The larger of the two grinned. Jaden recognized him now, behind the beard and hair. He was a clone of Jaden’s Master, Kyle Katarn. Anger poured off both clones, anger born of years of frustration and mistreatment. It hit Jaden like a hailstorm. His elbows bent. He was failing, failing.
But he refused to give in.
He grunted, summoned a reserve of strength, extended his arms fully, pushed back against the clones, stood up, and held his ground.
“I won’t let you pass,” he grunted. “I can’t.”
His words erased the smile on the Lumiya-clone’s face. She shrieked, her calm façade shattering under the sudden expression of her rage. Power went forth from her, joined that of the other two clones, and slammed him against the wall.

Nonetheless, I agree on the fact that this is a stalemate more than a victory for Jaden.
But my scaling for Jaden Korr still stand:
Jaden Korr ~ (Soldier + Runner) in rage mode > Soldier + Runner > 2xRunner >>>>destroying a building

3°) JADEN SKILLS

I didn't feel any need to adress what you say about the Vader fight, because I mostly agree on this. Nonetheless, being able to stalemate someone like Vader is still interresting.
In addition to this we have also the fight of Boba against the StarKiller clone and his fight against Rahm Kota.

62 - SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 3 3954639-killing%20starkiller%20clone

Both of them show how impressive is Boba as a fighter and that defeating him require way more than just force power: it require skills.

Plus there’s the fact that Boba was far older when he faced Jaden.

Yes, Boba was far older than the version of him that challenged Vader, but just remember that an even older version of Boba with the help of Tahiri Veil (not what we can define as an insanely powerful jedi) was able to destroy one of Abeloth avatar, something really impressive even taken into account the context.

Boba vs Abeloth:

This leads me into my next point: is Jaden truly a great fighter, as you are suggesting?
Unfortunately the all indications are to the contrary or at least not quite as great as you are suggesting

Being able to defeat Boba Fett, being able to fight the Community is to my point the proof of him being a good fighter.
The fight with master Relin that you put on the table as a low showing is clearly a huge logical error.
We have no information about master Relin (except the fact that he is a jedi master). What you deduce is that Master Relin is a poor fighter so Jaden isn't consistent as a fighter.
I prefer a more logical approach and knowing that Jaden is a good fighter, understand that master Relin, in addition to his fighting style advantage (that he should have because of the fact that he certainly know more figthing style than Korr), must be a good fighter.

CONCLUSION:

The Jaden Korr scaling chain still stand perfectly and is far above anything that Traya have demonstrated.

~Clear superiority over Kyle Katarn~

In this part, I will use Darth Caedus as the proof of Jaina being far above Kyle Katarn. In order to do this, I will compare Caedus facing Katarn and Caedus facing Jaina (the second fight where she haven't been amp by Luke).

Katarn vs Solo:

Solo vs Solo:

From the start of the dual we can see the huge discrepency between the two fighters: the first attack of Katarn was easily blocked ("threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept") by Caedus while he was impale by Jaina first strike ("A lightsaber snap-hissed to life, and suddenly Caedus felt as though he were going to vomit fire"). You can say that this is mainly because Jaina take Caedus by surprise, but you should'nt forget that Caedus have the time to see her and to say her name before being impale. He also directly retaliate, proof that he was begining to act against her but wasn't fast enough to counter the first strike.
Then in the following fight, Katarn, despite the help of two jedi knight was absolutely unable to hit Caedus powerfully or even efficiently ("Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it, not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him" Caedus didn't even seems to care about this attack."Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek" and "He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade." Here once again he didn't care about Katarn attack). In opposite, during his fight with Jaina, hurt him really badly too ("She saw a fan of crimson light arcing toward her out of the dark side of the pit and spun toward it, blocking and kicking in the same move. Caedus grunted as her boot caught him somewhere above the waist" landing physical strike on Caedus "Jaina countered with a driving knee to the thigh" another physical strike "The kick snapped Caedus's head back and sent him tumbling over the conveyor belt" physical strike again "Jaina's blade tapped Caedus behind the boot, touching just long enough to sever the crucial tendon running up the back of the ankle" lightsaber strike "It would not be enough, Jaina knew. She closed her eyes and felt the lightsaber sink in, felt it slicing through his ribs into his chest" the final strike)
The fight between Katarn and Caedus was insanely fast, in 15 seconds he absolutely dominate the fight while the fight with her sister he fight way longer (even though we didn't have the timeline of the fight, just by comparing the two fights it is easy to see that the one against Jaina was way longer)

Now lets speak about the context of the fight. Because there is a context around it:

In the fight of Katarn against Caedus, Katarn have the help of two jedi knights (+1) who know how to fight coordinate ("They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me"), Caedus was also recovering from the previous injury that he suffered from his confrontation with Luke (+1)("He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke"). Caedus was also not only focus on the fight, keeping seeing the big picture (+1)("Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories"). As you can see, Katarn have lots of advantages in this fight and is still badly loosing.
In her fight against her twin brother, Jaina have the advantage of landing the first strike on her brother (+1) ("where Caedus still stood in the doorway, his mouth gaping in surprise, with a thumb-sized scorch hole just below his ribs"), this can be seen as a huge advantage for Jaina but factually this isn't. Indeed, this wound neither kill nor incapacitate Caedus, only hurting him. And we know from previous fight that this sort of pain can boost Caedus instead of hindering him ("His pain would only fuel his power"). Another advantage that she have is the fact that Caedus didn't have two good arms at his disposal (+1) but once again, as shown in her previous fight, this wasn't such a huge problem for him ("The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him"). But here, Jaina have also some drawbacks, first of all, she suffered an extremly powerful blast from her brother, seconds after impaling him (-1) ("Stinging needle-thrusts of pain zippered down her spine as her vertebrae rocked beneath the impact, and the synthmesh supporting her half-healed ribs came apart in a single agonizing pop. She dropped to the floor, fighting to keep her pain from carrying her down into numb oblivion" and "Jaina's pain-clouded mind") another huge disadvantage that she have in this fight is the fight that she cannot sense Caedus in the force (-1)("trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force"). As you can easily see, and contrary to common sense about this fight, Jaina have also lots of drawbacks which compensate her advantages.

With all of that say, it is very easy to see that Jaina succeed way better against her brother than Katarn did. By any kind of logic, it is obvious that Jaina is Katarn's superior fighter. And once again, this happened before her prime.

CONCLUSION

~Additional advantages~

Jaina Solo contrary to what my opponent claim have already faced an opponent who have far more knowledge than her. Indeed, Caedus have learned powers far beyond her knowledge :

They had learned much of what Jacen learned; skills that no other Jedi had known for centuries, if ever.

This included training from Aing-Tii with their famous flow-walking, something that is above the classic Force anticipation.

Despite this and the fact that Jacen is more powerful than her in the force, she succeed to defeat him (granted some advantages). This just show how skilled as a fighter she is.

In addition to this, she also have an intense training with the famous Bounty Hunter Boba Fett that specifically trained her in order to have some advantages over ennemies who are more powerful or have more knowledge:

So I'm packing for a journey I didn't think I'd ever make. I'll give Jag this much: he never said I told you so. He's the one who said I needed to learn from someone who had a track record in bringing down Jedi.
If anyone can stop Jacen, then, it's me. I'm his equal, and I'm the Sword of the Jedi. But I just don't have his... training. I've no idea what he learned from Lumiya, let alone what he picked up on his travels during those five years. But he'll make a mistake sooner or later. He's way too cocky not to overestimate himself.
I just hope it's sooner. And if being a Sith made Jacen invincible, he'd have taken over the galaxy by now.
I have a chance, and Fett's going to help me make the most of it.
It can't be that hard to find him. He's a bounty hunter, so I'll hire him like any other client, except I'm not just any other client - I'm Han Solo's daughter, and I'm a Jedi, and Fett has spent a lifetime hunting us.
And now I'm asking him to train me to hunt and capture my own brother.
For all I know, he'll laugh in my face - if he ever laughs, that is - and tell me to get lost. But I have to ask him. Swallow pride, eat humble pie, and beg if need be. Dad seems to have thawed a little toward him; I still despise him.
But if he says yes I swear I'll be the best pupil he's ever had. Come on, Fett: show me how it's done.

"I want to learn what Jacen hasn't," she said.

No, I'm telling you this isn't about lightsaber technique. I'm more than twice your age, no Force powers, and I still got you to drop your guard. Winning isn't about being better. It's finding your opponent's weakness and exploiting it

If you add to this the fact that Jaina is clearly above Traya in term of force power I failed to see in what scenario this won't be a clear stomp...

~Conclusion (the real one)~

You have failed to proove that the Dantoine feat is an impressive one
You have failed to proove that Traya is a good fighter
You have failed to proove that Traya has some useful knowledge for a fight
You didn't adress the fact that Traya loose to a weaker and tired opponent
I have prooved that Jaina is one of the top dog of the jedi order
I have prooved that Jaina is far above Kyle Katarn
I have prooved that the Jaden Korr scaling still stand (and is better than any feat that you have given to me)

62 - SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 3 Jaina_solo_by_tinybuggyart_dc8sw5r-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTUxOCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2I3NDU4NzcxLWE1ZDMtNGIxMy1iNjJjLTNhMzFkMjY3YTQzMFwvZGM4c3c1ci1iNzRhODhjOS04YzQ5LTQ5MzctOTQ4Mi04ODg3ZmYzOTRhMWYucG5nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEwMjQifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ

Meatpants wrote:I've already won it for you. Take over and finish him off.

I think that you've been a bit too optimistic...

@MasterCilghal : the ball is in your court sir

Callouts:
@Meatpants @LadyKulvax @DC77 (Reborn) @Flunky Cyborg @NotAA3

September 9th 2019, 12:49 pm

Good post, it must have taken some time to write it. My response will eventually come, hopefully soon.

September 9th 2019, 1:02 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:Good post, it must have taken some time to write it. My response will eventually come, hopefully soon.

Thank you guy. And you can take your time for your counter.

September 9th 2019, 1:30 pm

Nice. Very impressed.

September 9th 2019, 2:48 pm

Parts were good while others were reaching so far you're gonna fall over.

September 9th 2019, 4:43 pm

@Meatpants @DC77 (Reborn) Thanks both of you

September 11th 2019, 11:13 am

Solid post.

September 22nd 2019, 10:33 am Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Part 1: Jaina Solo counters

First, here, I must concede here that yes, I have made a mistake here by thinking that Luke was still in exile when the quote happend.
[/justify]
Nonetheless this quote still exist.

The quote may exist, but I’ve already debunked it (and you’ve provided no rebuttal) so i guess my points about it being a simple hyperbole or, more generally, figure of speech still stand. The best use you can have for this quote is that of a very generic accolade, that even admittedly unimpressive characters like Cilghal have.

Lets analyse this quotes.

1°) BEST JEDI KNIGHT

The first two quotes shown that Jaina is the best jedi knight of this era. Indeed, while the first quote from one of her sparing partner describe her as better than any jedi knight in combat, the second one explicitely put her as one of the best recently trained jedi knight. This directly include Jaden Korr, Leia Solo, Ben Skywalker and so on.

First of all, the former quote is from Zekk’s point of view, which makes it questionable to begin with, and he only says i “doubt”, not something like “I am certain”. Furthermore, Zekk has likely rarely met and sparred with Korr, as the latter is a field agent, often alone on various missions, which can be seen from his appearances in the FOTJ novels:

Vortex wrote:“This map is derived from the one Jaden Korr has been assembling during his piracy investigations”

As for the latter, it is again far too vague to place Jaina in any given position among the Jedi Knights. For instance, we can both call Jaden and Leia some of the best among the Jedi knights, but Jaden has significantly better showings.

2°) SECOND BEST PILOT

The third quote state that Jaina is an insanely good pilot only bested by Luke himself. Now the question that you can ask is : "how your level as a pilot is relevant in a fight ?".
The difference between a good and a bad pilot is mostly based on two things: your reflexes and your anticipation. And this both things are also extremly present during a classical fight. With this link between piloting and fighting lets consider a force user. If this force user is more powerful than another he must have better reflexe and better anticipation. By following this logic, we have that Jaina Solo is the second best fighter of the order just after Luke.

Now, the point is: have we some other proofs that support this logic ? The answer is yes:

Anakin Skywalker was an insanely good pilot and was also the most gifted force user ever.
Luke Skywalker is the best pilot of this era and also the most powerful jedi.

I disagree with your comparison. Being a good pilot also involves other elements, such as control over the ship or the ability to execute certain maneuvers. Being a better pilot doesn’t just involve being a better force user. For instance, let’s consider Jacen and Mara. Mara admits on 2 occasions Jacen is above her in power by a significant degree:

No, I feel that Jacen's developing powers way beyond mine, and that he's good for Ben, and that he would never harm him."

-- Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines

Either way, she was going to get a reaction out of him. She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

-- Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice

Despite this, they are described as evenly matched from Jacen’s own (and let’s admit it arrogant) point of view, when Mara attacks him :

Sacrifice wrote:“He jinked left, and she matched him, and right, and left, and still she was so close on his tail that he braced for impact out of reflex, arms locked out on the yoke.
There was no advantage: same starfighter. No edge: she was as good a pilot. No refuge: they were in open space. It was down to who hated who more, and who was more prepared to die to take out the other.”

Or what about Saesee Tiin? His skills as a pilot are noted to be “unrivaled” (so no one comes even close) :

But even among the Jedi, the piloting prowess of Iktotchi Jedi Master Saesee Tiin remains unrivaled.
-The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

If we were to apply your logic to those two examples we would have Mara as an equal Jacen and Tiin should have force augmentation significantly above anyone in the PT (including Yoda, whom as we know from TCW is capable of piloting a starfighter). However, the lore refutes this completely as we know that Mara is Jacen’s inferior in the force and as a combatant while Tiin was almost literally blitzed by Palpatine, an opponent on Yoda’s level. ultimately, it’s clear your logic is fallacious in its foundation as it is contradicted by various examples in the lore.

3°) DARTH CAEDUS QUOTES

The last three quotes refer directly to the parity between Jaina and Jacen aka Caedus. Thanks to this quotes, we know that :

Caedus is too powerful to be taken down by anyone else than Luke himself.
Jaina have the same potential than him but less training (this is before her Fett training)
Jaina is his equal as a fighter
[...]
This clearly illustrate the fact that Jaina isn't as powerful as Caedus in force strength. Nonetheless, even with all of this said, that was her who have been choosen by the council to hunt down Darth Caedus.
Knowing that the Jedi Council won't send Jaina to her death, the most logical deduction is that Jaina have been choosen to kill Jacen because she is the one with the more chance not to fail (obviously we exclude Luke becaus this latter fear to fall to the DS).

The first 2 quotes all refer to Jaina’s potential in the force, not her actual level of skill/power. Even after her training under the mandalorian she admitted her solid inferiority to him (you’ve already presented that quote later in the post), which is made all the more evident from the duel between the two. As for the first quote, I think you are taking it out of context: Luke says he is the only one who is sure of being capable of taking Caedus, not the only one who can take him, which makes perfect sense when you consider that Luke can simply pin him to his chair with the force without any effort. By contrast, there is a possibility, albeit not likely, that other jedi could take him down, the most evident one being Saba, whom Caedus notes can defeat her only with difficulty. But the main point is: Jaina is not chosen because of her power, in fact she straight-up admits she’s not the equal of the masters and that she can take him down because of specific advantages she has that anyone else doesn’t, namely the fact that she is his sister:

Invincible wrote:"i know that you masters-and several jedi knights- are more skilled in both force and lightsaber than i am. but i'm his twin sister . i'll have advantages no one else will."

It especially important to point out that when she offered herself as a candidate to take down her brother the masters were initially hesitant, and labeled her as a mere jedi Knight, but were later convinced by Jaina’s speech about the aforementioned advantages she had over her brother, and Han Solo bringing up the “sword of the Jedi” thing(Link to the full sequence).

So no, no statement puts Jaina as the second most powerful jedi after Luke nor as anywhere near the equal of Caedus in terms of skill or actualized power.

Part 2: Jaden Korr/Boba Fett

With the previous part that I have made, it is clear that Jaina is above Jaden Korr and even by a pretty good margin. Indeed, nonetheless the fact that Jaden have been proposed Jedi master he is still a knight so he is include into both previous quotes about Jaina being above all other jedi knights and wasn't choose to hunt down Caedus.
The only thing that can be said is the fact that the feat that I use for Korr happened after LotF. Indeed, this is true but we didn't have any proof of an insane growth in power from Jaden between the end of LotF and Riptide/Crosscurrent. So there is just no reason to think that he had experienced more than a classical growth in the force, something that Jaina or other jedi knight will also have. So if Jaina was better before, she will stay above him after.

This whole argument falls due to my prievius points. Let’s summarize them:

-Jaina is not sent because she’s more powerful than any other jedi barring Luke, but simply for her status as Jacen’s sister and her mandalorian training.

-As I already explained, Korr was often away in specific missions as a field agent.

-Luke implies other jedi can defeat Caedus but he is the only one who can be sure of doing that.

Furthermore, in the quote I presented earlier Jaina concedes she is inferior to the masters and some Jedi Knights, a sentiment no one present came out and disproved but that Jaina acknowledged as fact after Corran labeled her as a Jedi Knight, Jaina might have been referring to Korr as well, considering that he is one of the most impressive knights of the era:

Backlash wrote:“Korr, a man of Coruscant and onetime apprentice of Kyle Katarn, was far too serious for Kyp’s taste, but had conducted a long and impressive career as a Jedi Knight.”

As for the rest of the Korr part, I agree with everything you have presented, as my opinion of his feats has changed since I released my last post. However, it is irrelevant to this debate as there is no indication Jaina is better than him in any way (in fact all indications are to the contrary).

I didn't feel any need to adress what you say about the Vader fight, because I mostly agree on this. Nonetheless, being able to stalemate someone like Vader is still interresting.

My point was that Boba cannot stalemate Vader…the fight between him and Boba (because only one is canon) were circumstantial and showed Vader’s unquestionable and rather significant superiority to Fett.

In addition to this we have also the fight of Boba against the StarKiller clone and his fight against Rahm Kota.

Both of them show how impressive is Boba as a fighter and that defeating him require way more than just force power: it require skills.

I agree with you here, Boba is highly impressive.

Yes, Boba was far older than the version of him that challenged Vader, but just remember that an even older version of Boba with the help of Tahiri Veil (not what we can define as an insanely powerful jedi) was able to destroy one of Abeloth avatar, something really impressive even taken into account the context.

That fight was so ridiculously circumstantial you can hardly consider it impressive. Abeloth was significantly weaker than usual, as she was in a host body that could no longer contain her power and she wanted Tahiri Veila’s body, which Tahiri later notes was the only reason for why she and Fett were still alive:

Apocalypse wrote:A vicious battle with Abeloth had followed, and Tahiri and Fett had barely survived. “The only reason you’re talking to me now,” Tahiri explained, “is that Abeloth didn’t kill me outright She needed my body next, because Pagorski’s was burning out. Apparently, the bodies of Force-users last longer.”

It’s also interesting to point out that Veila believed Abeloth could have killed her (and obviously Fett as well) outright and only chose not to do so because she needed her body. Although this is just Veila’s interpretation, it makes perfect sense considering she has sensed Abeloth’s power earlier. So yeah, this feat has way too many circumstances against Abeloth and cannot be used as proof of his combat skill. After all, how is Boba beating a being whom (in that very state) had feats with the force that Tahiri noted Luke couldn’t replicate?

Being able to defeat Boba Fett, being able to fight the Community is to my point the proof of him being a good fighter.
The fight with master Relin that you put on the table as a low showing is clearly a huge logical error.
We have no information about master Relin (except the fact that he is a jedi master). What you deduce is that Master Relin is a poor fighter so Jaden isn't consistent as a fighter.
I prefer a more logical approach and knowing that Jaden is a good fighter, understand that master Relin, in addition to his fighting style advantage (that he should have because of the fact that he certainly know more figthing style than Korr), must be a good fighter.

Considering that Relin Was active during the old republic, around 5000 bby, and era of featless jedi duelists I severely question him being a good fighter...but in general I agree that Korr is a very skilled jedi.

However, as I already explained, there is no proof that Jaina is above Korr in terms of overall combat effectiveness, and as such this part of the debate is irrelevant to our point. We can move on now.

Part 3:Jaina>Kyle?!

Before addressing your analysis of the fights, I wanted to point out that Jaina has already conceded inferiority to the Jedi council (see the quote and argument above) and as such this analysis starts with a weak foundation, as it is not corroborated by the accolades presented to us. Having said that, let’s begin.

From the start of the dual we can see the huge discrepency between the two fighters: the first attack of Katarn was easily blocked ("threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept") by Caedus while he was impale by Jaina first strike ("A lightsaber snap-hissed to life, and suddenly Caedus felt as though he were going to vomit fire"). You can say that this is mainly because Jaina take Caedus by surprise, but you should'nt forget that Caedus have the time to see her and to say her name before being impale. He also directly retaliate, proof that he was begining to act against her but wasn't fast enough to counter the first strike.

While I agree with the latter part of your analysis ( although Caedus was distracted at the time given he was discussing about the moffs having betrayed him, while he was far more prepared against Katarn) there is a fundamental problem in the former part: the fact that he blocked Katarn’s attack easily was not because the attack was easy to counter in itself , but rather because he knew that lightsaber move so well he could have performed it at any moment with ease. The emphasis is on the lightsaber move, not Katarn’s attack.

Then in the following fight, Katarn, despite the help of two jedi knight was absolutely unable to hit Caedus powerfully or even efficiently

As I will explain in more detail later, the presence of the other jedi was irrelevant, as they were little more than fodder to him.

("Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it, not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him" Caedus didn't even seems to care about this attack."Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek" and "He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade." Here once again he didn't care about Katarn attack)

This doesn’t show he wasn’t having difficulty. The first passage merely shows Caedus avoiding Katarn’s attack (which I wouldn’t call not caring) while the second depicts him simply blocking Katarn’s lightsaber. Sure, Caedus was having the upper hand in the duel, but it’s not like Caedus was absolutely dominating. This is made clear in the text immediately after the passages you presented:

Fury wrote:In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even.
…

Considering the fight is described as “even” I would hardly say Caedus was having no difficulty.

Furthermore, both the complete Star Wars encyclopedia and the novel itself do make clear that Caedus was taxed by the duel:

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Fury wrote:Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke. And now, as more of his troopers began firing, Horn began deflecting more bolts at him. The imprecise, barely aimed nature of the attacks worked in Horn's favor. The shots were unpredictable and Caedus had to divide his attention between a mad swordsman and a growing number of half-blind snipers.

It’s made clear in the text that Caedus was starting to lose his concentration and most of his strength, and this was right after he was able to remove Katarn from the fight. Before you bring up the injuries he suffered against Luke, please note that, as I will expand upon very soon, the relevance of those injuries was relatively minor. At the end of the day, In stark contrast to what you are asserting, I believe Katarn was able to put up a fairly good fight against Caedus.

In opposite, during his fight with Jaina, hurt him really badly too

This will also be addressed in depth later(when I’ll discuss the circumstances) , but for I can only say that I hunk you’re severely downplaying the importance of Caedus’s injuries in the duel with Jaina. Furthermore, Jaina was not her brother’s equal despite his injuries and overall mental state at the time:

Invincible wrote:Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life.
[…]
Jaina came to a knee facing him and knew Caedus was about to die. He had one arm and one good leg, and they were not even on the same side of the body. He could not pivot and he could not retreat. All she needed was to get past his lightsaber and attack the armless side of his body-before she collapsed herself, or he recovered enough to kill her with one last Force blast.

As you can see, she has to put all of her effort against a distracted Caedus who menages to consistently blast her despite his injuries, to the point where he might be able to kill her.

The fight between Katarn and Caedus was insanely fast, in 15 seconds he absolutely dominate the fight while the fight with her sister he fight way longer (even though we didn't have the timeline of the fight, just by comparing the two fights it is easy to see that the one against Jaina was way longer)

Considering Caedus ended the fight with Katarn through a clever trick (ramming him with a speeder while pretending to employ a direct telekinetic attack) rather than outfighting him the duration of the fight seems hardly a good comparison. In fact, I’d say that Caedus being choosing to end the fight that way reflects well on Katarn, as it proves he’s outside of the so-called “ragdoll” range. By contrast, as I’ve already proved, he could consistently blast away Jaina with little difficulty.

In the fight of Katarn against Caedus, Katarn have the help of two jedi knights (+1) who know how to fight coordinate ("They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me"

Caedus specifically notes that those jedi “either individually or collectively, were no match” for him and acknowledges Katarn as the only credible threat, which is corroborated by the description of the duel, which depicts Caedus absolutely dominating the other jedi and Katarn having to break off the attack to assist them:

Fury wrote:Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.

Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through.

Essentially, the whole fight was Caedus vs Katarn, as the other jedi present were the living definition of non-factors. The fact that they coordinated didn’t make them any more of a challenge to him.

Caedus was also recovering from the previous injury that he suffered from his confrontation with Luke (+1)("He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke").

While I agree the injuries were a factor in the fight, it’s not nearly as important as you make it to be because Caedus noted earlier he was “quickly recovering”. So the relevance of these injuries is definitely minor and only came into play after Katarn was defeated, which further proves my point about him being taxed by the duel.

Caedus was also not only focus on the fight, keeping seeing the big picture (+1)("Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories"). As you can see, Katarn have lots of advantages in this fight and is still badly loosing.

I fail to see the relevance of this “advantage” . Caedus never appears to be distracted from the fight at any moment, even if he’s keeping awareness on the vehicles. I also think you’re using a double standard here, by taking this into account and not his distraction in the fight with Jaina, that being him wanting to alert Tenel aka of the nano-virus, which I see as a far more substantial advantage.

And we know from previous fight that this sort of pain can boost Caedus instead of hindering him ("His pain would only fuel his power"). Another advantage that she have is the fact that Caedus didn't have two good arms at his disposal (+1) but once again, as shown in her previous fight, this wasn't such a huge problem for him ("The loss of an arm did not seem to faze him").

1- Just like against Katarn, but to a much greater degree, in this specific instance his injuries were a disadvantage rather than the opposite. In fact the text notes that Caedus was putting a great deal of force energy into sustaining himself, rather than the opposite:

Invincible wrote:aina brought her lightsaber to high guard and braced her feet, ready for Caedus's attack.

Instead, he deactivated his blade.

"Jaina, listen to me." There was a throaty, gurgling quality to Caedus's voice, and it seemed obvious that the only thing keeping him on his feet was Force energy-a lot of it. "You need to get out of my way. I'm trying to save Tenel Ka and Allana."

From this description we can see the injuries were an impairment to him rather than a way to fuel his power.

But here, Jaina have also some drawbacks, first of all, she suffered an extremly powerful blast from her brother, seconds after impaling him (-1) ("Stinging needle-thrusts of pain zippered down her spine as her vertebrae rocked beneath the impact, and the synthmesh supporting her half-healed ribs came apart in a single agonizing pop. She dropped to the floor, fighting to keep her pain from carrying her down into numb oblivion" and "Jaina's pain-clouded mind")

While it is true that Jaina was hurt as well, you’ve yet to prove those injuries were anywhere near Caedus’ own. And regardless:

Invincible wrote:The Force came pouring in from all sides, saturating Jaina and devouring her, filling her with a roaring maelstrom of power, carrying away her pain and leaving in its place the strength not only to survive, but to rise and fight.

another huge disadvantage that she have in this fight is the fight that she cannot sense Caedus in the force (-1)("trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force"). As you can easily see, and contrary to common sense about this fight, Jaina have also lots of drawbacks which compensate her advantages.

I agree, however this was only a disadvantage for a small part of the fight.

At the end of the day, we’re left with this:

1- Katarn, while helped by 3 nobodies, per various sources, including the book itself, is able to give Caedus a fight while the latter has almost recovered from his duel with Luke.

2- Jaina is solidly inferior to her brother while he is severely injured, distracted and not willing to fight.

Furthermore, taking a look at their previous fight, in which Jaina while amped by Luke struggles against a Caedus who was already injured (link) it seems obvious all evidence points to Jaina being severely inferior to her brother as a general combatant.

Part 4: Traya

This isn't really significatif to know that they have mastered lightsaber technics when in an only Force battle. And knowing that Traya killed them only via the use of the Force, I failled to see in which way this is relevant.

Kreia’s own comment on the lightsaber form (which MP has already presented) explains this fairly well:

Kotor 2 wrote:"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders. Impressive."

Only individuals with great skill and power in the force can learn the technique (take for example Maul, Windu, Bane and so on).

So they know how to teach an impressive Force technique. So they have a good knowledge. I beg your pardon but isn't knowledge something different from force power ? Yes the knowledge of something is like a tool. If you have more tools, you are more likely to solve any type of problem.

If they can teach the technique i would assume they can also use it themselves…

- SF Bastila scaling

So you just have a quote explaining that before Malak attack, there was powerful jedi masters. You have no proofs:

that after the attack this "most powerful jedi masters" are still alive
that this jedi who are dead are include in Bastila claim
that the three jedi masters are part of "the most powerful jedi masters"

We do have proof for that. First of all, Bastila was not necessarily referring to jedi masters that were alive. For instance, if you say “I have created better pieces than all but the greatest composers” you are not necessarily referring to composers that are alive. Secondly, i do think at least Vrook was among those “most powerful jedi masters” she mentioned, as he was one of the masters of the council that she met when she brought Revan to the Jedi:

https://youtu.be/1fp-yR7P790

And note that this was almost immediately after she mentioned that some for the most powerful jedi lived there. Add that to the fact that, the masters are implied to be on the same level by Kreia herself:

Regardless.... it had to be done. To have such powerful Jedi still live, still be felt in the Force even on dead worlds as they had chosen, was a threat that had to be ended."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

as the quote MP utilized clearly applies to those three as well. Now, why is it impressive? Well, that version of Bastila was able to give Revan a moderate fight:

Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

Of course I don’t believe the masters would be able to replicate Revan’s feat, because Bastila would be continually drawing on the SF to empower herself, but they would certainly put up a worthy struggle.

- Kreia vs Jedi masters

The confrontation between Darth Traya and the three jedi Masters is something that you didn't explain.

While MP didn’t do that, I did explain it in my first post.

Lets see what happend in this fight to have a better understand of the context.

The 3 jedi masters start to try to sever the Exile from the force once again.
Traya attack them, pushing them against a wall (they are taken by surprise)
Two remains on the floor and only Vrook stand up before being pinned to the wall once again
Then Traya lecture the three jedi. During the speech she explains that this three jedi masters are afraid: "But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid".
Eventually they attack Darth Traya with their lightsaber and are killed by her Force Drain.

1- The infamous you were afraid quote actually refers to exile, not the masters this can clearly be seen by Traya turning her face towards her and it makes far more sense considering that she was talking about her living without the force:

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2- while it is true the masters are initially taken by surprise, given that Traya is able to pin Vrook I would hardly say she’s incapable “ragdolling” them. For further explanation see my opener in this very thread. I’ve already addressed this.

being tired because of the try to sever from the Force an unwilling Exile, being blast powerfully against a wall, being afraid of the exile (so having more difficulty to draw on the force), attacking with their lightsaber Traya who use only the force here.

Proof for them being tired? I mean even Kreia was tired, as she noted to the exile before the latter went to meet the three masters.

I don’t understand your last point. The fact that they activated their lightsabers means they were combat-ready, making Traya’s ability to instantly drain them all the more impressive.

This last point is indeed a mistake because the Masters knows powerful techniques but not whithout drawbacks:

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean here, could you explain a bit more in depth? I’d be grateful.

In addition, the whole speech of the lady of the Sith is clearly a sort of Dun Moch. Indeed, she just taunt the three jedi masters by saying that they deliberately didn't act as they should have done. She talk at each one precisely, showing a deep knowledge of their life. And the technique is pretty effective when you see that neither of the three jedi attack her even though they have ignite their lightsabers.

I don’t think jedi masters of that caliber, who have lived through 2 major crisis of the Jedi order, would easily fall pray to Dun Moch. And even if that were the case I don’t think it would have had a drastic effect on the fight(E.I. the masters would have won). And, After all, Kreia will certainly use it against Jaina, even if to a lesser degree.

I think that is mainly based on the quote from Bastila Shan explaining that: "There is great strength within this place." Obviously this is a misconception. Here the great strenght isn't some sort of LS nexus but the jedi academy of Dantooine with its pretty huge defensive system. You didn't give any other proof for your theory of the LS nexus, so clearly none have any reason to trust you this theory.

I agree with you here, that was probably the only part of MP’s post I disagreed with.

-Kreia’s knowledge

Nonetheless, the real question here is : how much can this knowledge be use in a fight ? Because lots of the knowledge that both sith and jedi gathered are non-combat-applicable. For example all the rituals from the sith cannot be use in the core of a fight.
This is further emphatize by the fact that in much of his fight, despite his insane knowledge (that we can both agree is greater than Traya's one) Sidious mainly rely on TK, TP, FL, lightsaber strikes. If someone like Sheev Palpatine with such knowledge didn't use other technics (even against difficult ennemy such as Luke in DE) it is more than plausible that it is because most of this knowledge isn't combat-applicable.

I’ve already explained in my first post that, based on Atris’ statement, the teachings she garnered on Telos contain teachings on combat techniques:

"All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

While I see where you’re getting at with the Palpatine example, Traya has actually made use of that knowledge on many occasions, employing powers such as teleportation, force fear, ionize, drain and so on. Here are some examples:

Kreia should attack with mind-affecting Force powers like Horror while you go after the unshielded mercenaries.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

-Traya’s lightsaber skill

The first one is something pretty vague that lots of jedi and sith who aren't insanely good duelist have, so clearly this isn't something specialy interresting.

Well it’s comparable with the accolades you presented for Jaina.

First of all the theory supported by the quote is clearly dismissed by the fact that Traya was ejected out of the Triumvirat not because of a lightsaber fight that she lost but because she was ragdoll by the combine might of Nilhius and Sion. By following this logic, there is no reason for her not to defeat some other sith better than her in sheer skill but with less force power.

We’re discussing lightsaber skill, not force power. Sure, Nihilus is more powerful than her, but nothing suggests either him or Sion, the former in particular , is superior to her in lightsaber skill. And after all, Jaina hasn’t demonstrated enough force power to achieve what Nihilus did to her so it's kind of a moot point.

Secondly even if I agree on the fact that she is the best lightsaber fighter of the sith, this only include the sith that survive after the civil war. We have no idea of the skills level of this particular era. This is absolutely not relevant for this fight

It is definitely a generic accolade, although it does place her above the likes of Sion and Visas Marr, two fairly impressive combatants in their own right.

Well, this is just an insane stupidity...
Lets reasoning by the absurd and assuming that she can predict fight minutes before things happend. Logically when she have faced the Exile she could have predict what happend before the end of the fight (her defeat). And knowing that she is more powerful than the Exile she should have just find the good way to win the fight. But factually she loose.
So clearly she cannot predict fight minutes before.

That duel had 1 major factor in the exile’s favor:

Kreia literally didn’t have a hand, which would have undoubtedly decreased her effectiveness in combat. However, in this debate, our agreement is that Kreia hasn’t yet lost a limb, which removes his disadvantage.

Furthermore, Meetra has always been portrayed as an impressive force user. For example, Here is what Revan thinks of her:

the old republic: Revan wrote:"I was told you had been cut off from the Force, but I can sense its power in you. I always knew you had great potential,"

looking at this and all of her accolades and feats I completely agree with MP that she’s better than Jaina.

And lastly, a weaker character defeating a stronger one is not unheard of in SW, see Anakin vs Obi wan, Maul vs Kenobi… in both cases a certain character should have realistically won but the other “menages to” defeat him via several factor, which in this case are unknown given that it’s a video game fight, but the description of the complete encyclopedia points to that being the case. As such, MP’s points about Traya’s knowledge of Echani combat techniques still stand, as you haven’t provided a valid counter.

The same argument applies to the rest of your post.

New argument: Traya and Visas Marr

Before concluding my post I would like to present a small scaling for Traya, which really shows the depth of her force power. Now, Visas Marr is a miraluka, who was taken as Nihilus’ apprentice after his draining of Katarr. By the time of KOTOR 2, she is noted as being only second after her master:

A Shadow Hand's expertise in cruelty, trickery and the dark side are second only to the Master - for now.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

This would make her stronger and more skilled than almost all the sith in the triumvirate, some of whom have great accolades:

Traced to the Bladeborn, a Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, these cortosis-faced weapons were given to “masterblades” who survived no less than 10 lightsaber-wielding warriors in combat.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Furthermore, she has shown great willpower, resisting Fredon Nadd’s tomb and dispelling its dark side energy:

Dispel or absorb the concentrated zones of dark side energy.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

She also shown to be capable of eliminating hordes of sith with the strength of her force lightning:

Go south to battle the first group of Sith. The many commandos and elite soldiers are equipped for ranged combat and can quickly wear you down with blaster fire if you don't finish them off quickly. Force Storm, a staple of any Jedi's arsenal, is without question the fastest way of eliminating the opposition. Have Visas use this power in every battle for an easy victory—just let her Force points regenerate between skirmishes.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

Despite this, she is literally crushed by Traya with a mere gesture:

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So, here we have it, Darth Traya is literally able to fodderize an opponent who is capable of carving his way through hordes of sith and is considered only second to Nihilus. To me, it Seems better than anything Jaina has, but feel free to prove otherwise.

Conclusion

let’s summarize my arguments:

1- All Jaina has in terms of accolades are some very generic statements which do not put her above Jaden Korr but, by LOTF, she’s below all the masters. I have yet to see proof of a substantial growth from the it to FOTJ/Crucible.

2- Jaina’s fight with Caedus, compared with Katarn’s, actually places her below the battlemaster.

3- All your rebuttals to Kreia’s feats and accolades have been appropriately countered, so both my and MP’s arguments about Kreia’s accolades and feats and knowledge still stand.

4- My arguments in the first post, especially the one about the effectiveness of Traya’s drain also stands, as you’ve provided no counter to it.

Ultimately, Kreia has all she needs to win this fight.

Good luck @Xolthol with your response.

September 22nd 2019, 1:12 pm

Forgot about the tags:@NotAA3 @“DC77 (reborn)”

*EXAMINATING THE DANTOOINE FEAT*

~THE JEDI MASTERS~

~JEDI vs TRAYA~

~Conclusion~

*KNOWLEDGE WHITHOUT SKILL*

~Conclusion~

*THE SWORD OF THE JEDI*

*CONCLUSION*

EXAMINATING THE DANTOOINE FEAT

KNOWLEDGE WHITHOUT SKILL

THE SWORD OF THE JEDI

CONCLUSION