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on June 12th 2019, 1:07 pm
I'll refrain from saying anything publicly (If I can be bothered I'll PM Xolthol privately) but most of the claims that were made were suspect to say the least, some of them outright stupid. That being said the opener was enjoyable for what it was.
MasterCilghal
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on June 12th 2019, 1:15 pm
@Xolthol very good response. i’ll respond as soon as i gather more information.
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on June 12th 2019, 1:51 pm
DC77 wrote:I'll refrain from saying anything publicly (If I can be bothered I'll PM Xolthol privately) but most of the claims that were made were suspect to say the least, some of them outright stupid. That being said the opener was enjoyable for what it was.
If you want, I'm open to hear what I've done stupidly SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 228124001
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on June 12th 2019, 1:52 pm
Damn Xolthol just managed to proove Jaina will destroy Traya. Good CaV so far keep up the good work.
LadyKulvax
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on June 12th 2019, 7:49 pm
I seriously hope he didn't predicate his argument on building-level TK...
MasterCilghal
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on June 15th 2019, 7:44 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:I seriously hope he didn't predicate his argument on building-level TK...
Who are you referring to?
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on June 15th 2019, 8:37 am
Xolthol
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on June 16th 2019, 3:00 am
@Xolthol my post should be coming by the end of next week. It’s gonna be pretty long.
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on June 16th 2019, 6:31 am
@mastercilghal: Ok no problem. I didn't know when I will have time to respond (I am still pretty busy IRL and must made a case for Vestara, Baras and Nox so...) SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 2668642404
MasterCilghal
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on June 16th 2019, 6:33 am
@xolthol wrote:@mastercilghal: Ok no problem. I didn't know when I will have time to respond (I am still pretty busy IRL and must made a case for Vestara, Baras and Nox so...) SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 2668642404
Don’t worry, i’ll wait.
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on June 16th 2019, 3:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Make me proud Cilghal.

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 228124001
MasterCilghal
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on June 16th 2019, 3:59 pm
DC77 wrote:Make me proud Cilghal.

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 228124001
I will  SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 1076326320
xolthol
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on June 16th 2019, 4:45 pm
@mastercilghal wrote:
DC77 wrote:Make me proud Cilghal.

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 228124001
I will  SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 1076326320

Waiting to see this ...
MasterCilghal
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on June 27th 2019, 1:13 pm
@Xolthol due to various issues, such as the fact that I haven’t had access to the document of my post for several days, I have to delay my next post. It should come out next week though, since it’s almost finished. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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on June 28th 2019, 3:19 am
No problem, take your time
MasterCilghal
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on June 30th 2019, 11:07 am
@Xolthol due to various personal issues and problems, i won’t be able to continue this debate. Sorry again
DC77 (Reborn)
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on June 30th 2019, 11:19 am
I'm sad tbh. I'd offer to continue but I know fuck all about Traya so...
Isv
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on June 30th 2019, 11:43 am
Wait... she's top dog of the Jedi order and yet doesn't bark???
xolthol
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on July 3rd 2019, 9:36 am
DC77 wrote:I'm sad tbh. I'd offer to continue but I know fuck all about Traya so...
If you want I'm ok with you continuing this debate.
@YVH cilghal Sad for you.
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on July 3rd 2019, 11:18 am
I’ll step in.
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on July 3rd 2019, 3:13 pm


I'm stepping in for Mastercilghal after he resigned from the debate after personal reasons. Good luck to Xolthol, and let's begin.



SWORD OF THE JEDI


Jaina only has one possible avenue from whence victory can be clinched against such a superior Force wielder. Let's begin to properly examine why it's also wrong.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Jaina Solo, who, as Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order.

Specifically, you allege that Luke isn't in the Order by this point, thus disqualifying the quote as false, since Jaina cannot be the combat equal of Luke Skywalker. However, the quote in full context proves otherwise:

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Liberating the Temple would not win the war against the Sith, or even end the battle of Coruscant. But Luke and his abilities were counting on it to be the turning point, when the Sith went from entrenched defenders to hunted quarry, and momentum swung back toward the Jedi.

All Luke's team had to do was take out that shield generator.

On most days, that would have been an easy job for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order.

As Jaina is objectively not the combat equal of Skywalker, this quote is rendered worthless. More importantly, feats and demonstrations of fighting ability are more important than accolades that are inherently contradictory, and you've failed to provide any showings from Jaina that establishes her as a lightsaber combat or force wielder capable of defeating Traya. Your entire argument is predicated on the reliance of this singular quote, and that quote is not valid. I will therefore not address the scaling you've attempted with the clones.

FACING DARTH TRAYA


You've labelled Traya ragdolling three Jedi Masters as "unimpressive". I beg to differ, the feat is undeniably extremely impressive. For one, demonstrate a feat of Jaina's that matches or surpasses it? All three masters are masters of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, as all three can teach the form to the Exile in KOTOR 2. Juyo requires mastery of all six previous forms to study:

SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol) - Page 2 Juyo11

Thus, all three masters have mastered up to Niman, and can at least teach Juyo, if not mastering it's use, considering none of them give into their emotions while using it. I would be remiss if I didn't note Kreia's own comments on the form:

"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders. Impressive."

Additionally, all three Jedi are capable of teaching the form Force Mastery, of which Kreia comments:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:It is a great technique that you have learned. Gifted only to the highest of Jedi Masters - and the Sith - this technique makes your Force powers more difficult to resist... and they will last longer as well. 

Thus, all three masters were among the highest in the Order. Additionally, Vrook specifically is elsewhere stated to be among the most powerful of the Order's Jedi Masters:

Bastila, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:
Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place.

In order to give better depth to the relative power of Vrook, and perhaps the other masters, Bastila herself admits inferiority to what can only mean the Council members; this is despite being overconfident and drunk on the power of the Star Forge and also having her powers enhanced by her turn to the Dark Side:

Bastila, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters.

Kreia first simultaneously chokes the masters, before cutting them off from the Force:

SWTOR Codex wrote:Part of Kreia’s plan involved decimating the Jedi Order. On Dantooine, Kreia severed Masters Vrook Lmar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell from the Force, killing them within the Jedi Enclave.

The three council members are among the most powerful Jedi of the era. All three have mastered the seven forms of lightsaber combat, and have mastered all the force forms, including Force Mastery, which is learnt by only the highest Jedi Masters. They also scale above DS Star Forge Bastila. Additionally, there were on a LS nexus when they died. Being able to ragdoll someone requires being exponentially more powerful, and Kreia ragdolls all three simultaneously, meaning she's exponentially stronger than the combined might of three of the most powerful Jedi of the KOTOR era. This is an impressive feat the far outstrips anything you've brought to the table regarding Jaina.

You've described Traya's loss to the Exile as an anti-feat, but there's no real basis for this, especially considering that Meetra Surik is also a superior combatant to Jaina, thus your point becomes moot. Although the KOTOR Campaign Guide writes "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." It's unclear whether this is based on their neutral power levels, or exclusive to Traya being amped by the core. Regardless, it's impossible to glean anything from this, as your own scaling has been disproven, and what's more, Surik is superior to Traya and has accolades and showings of skill and power far beyond that demonstrated by Jaina. 

DEMONSTRATIONS OF KNOWLEDGE AND POWER


Traya spent her life as a Jedi studying the ancient secrets, collecting artifacts and holocrons of the past:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions.

Korriban, a treasury trove of ancient Sith knowledge holds little secrets from her:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:Korriban holds few secrets from me... but much that you should learn.

[...]

There is much that would draw a Jedi to this place. The resting grounds of the ancient... and more recently departed Sith... contain many teachings believed lost.

Additionally, Kreia read from ancient texts on Malachor, teaching Sion and even Nihilus, showing him how to harness his power ("Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights..." KOTOR 2):

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:Within its Trayus Academy, she encounters assassins left by Darth Revan, but instead of attacking, they present her with Sith hermetica. "The truth of the cosmos", these writings intimated, "are not intended for the sane." Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pureblood descendants of the Sith people.

And also from the hoard of Sith holocrons (stated to be dozens by the Prima Guide, so at least 24) Atris had collected, which are confirmed as containing power and combat techniques:

Atris, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:These holocrons hold much of the Sith... and they hold much of my teachings, from long ago.

[...]

All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command.

It's easy to argue that Kreia's knowledge of both Jedi and Sith arts exponentially surpass Jaina. Kreia knows more techniques in the Force as well. Noticeably, Traya can conceal herself without giving off her dark side alignment (she does this throughout the course of the game non-stop until around the end), something Zannah required sorcery for, and found it extremely difficult to keep up. 

Traya doesn't posses one singular feat (despite it being massively impressive), but has several. Take for example when she one-shots more than a dozen elite Sith assassins on Malachor V:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5471965-7598304148-9DL3z.gif

The developer script description:

{Gameplay Programmer: In the next scene, cut to a shot of Kreia from behind, with Dark Side assassins materializing behind her, whispering - there should be almost up to 20, enough to make the audience go, "oh crap."}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a camera of Kreia's face, smiling. She does not turn around as the assassins advance.}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to black, play Kreia's stinger - I want this to be a "flash of black" like a quick cut in a movie.}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a scene of Kreia still walking along the same path, but ALL the assassins are lying dead on the ground.}


We can therefore reasonably glean that Traya achieved this feat without effort. 

What's more, Traya's saber skills are impressive. She was the most skilled lightsaber duelist of the Sith after the death of Darth Malak:

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.

She also used a double-bladed lightsaber as a Jedi, is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat (with mastery in at least the first three), and utilises the unique lightsaber form/technique Tràkata. One technique Traya can match Jaina in, is the use of shatterpoint. Traya can perceive shatterpoints on a planetary level:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:One might as well heal the universe... but such manipulation is possible, yes. It requires that one be able to feel the critical point within the fractured mass... and know how to strike it in such a way that the echoes travel to your intended destination.

Assuming that Kreia is also Arren Kae, she was the match of the greatest Echani warrior, Yusanis:

Handmaiden, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:He left our family to serve in the Mandalorian Wars. But his choice was not because of battle. He went to join my mother, one whose movements and spirit matched his. His only desire was that they fight together, side by side, for as long as there were enemies amassed against them. I never saw her face, and she did not return from the final battle of the war.

Knights of the Old Republic wrote:Yusanis was the most famous of Echani warriors, fighting against oppression and villainy until encountering Darth Revan. Discovering that Revan had killed an Echani senator, Yusanis attempted to tell authorities but fell to the powers of the Sith Lord, despite his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades.

This would give Traya the knowledge of all Echani rituals, techniques and abilities, such as being able to predict battles minutes in advance without the use of the Force:

Handmaiden, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
It is the way of the Echani to be able to read their opponents - to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects, anticipate it, and then strike against them. Echani battles are fought several minutes in advance - in many ways, it is much like the game of dejarik played in the core systems. The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars...

Even in unarmed combat, Traya has an extreme advantage over Jaina.




HOW THE BATTLE PLAYS OUT [CONCLUSION]


This fight is a mismatch. Jaina has not been demonstrated as being a match in any category to Traya, be it force knowledge, lightsaber skill, unarmed skill, experience etc. And I don't see any reason with how this battle plays out: Traya simply cuts Jaina from the Force and she dies instantly. Even if the battle devolves into a lightsaber duel, there's no evidence playing Jaina above Traya in dueling ability, and Traya is more capable of using Force techniques mid-combat. The outcome is simple.

@Xolthol

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on July 3rd 2019, 3:31 pm
@MP Good post, the Bastila quote is good wank for the Masters.
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on July 3rd 2019, 8:00 pm
Excellent work MP.
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on July 3rd 2019, 8:06 pm
Gewd post.
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on July 4th 2019, 12:28 am
@MP: Thanks for your work. I will read it when I will have some time.
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